Married slaves, can they be owned? (Full Version)

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celestia -> Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 10:02:40 AM)

Taking a detour from another well read thread on this forum, to pose another question on the topic that is semi-being tossed around. As Masters what are your thoughts on married women as slaves? Do you think that a married woman can be considered a slave to a Master if he is not her husband? And if not where does that leave her? How does she fulfill that constant need within, if it is unobtainable at home?

By reading the other thread I was beginning to get the feeling that some would say it is not a possiblity for a married woman to be owned by another. Intrested in seeing some others views on this topic.

Celestia



Alexander -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 10:17:21 AM)

Just to clarify. I say yes you can be an owned woman, even a slave. You decide. I could elaborate a lot on this but there are a couple things that come to mind personally.

I have a tendency to love my submissive. Maybe that needs to be controlled as part of self-mastery, who knows. Forget the whole debate about submissives inevitably falling in love with their masters. Reverse it. If you don't want to feel a possessive love, you're doing just fine. No one can deny you are a lucky lucky girl and deserve the joy you seek.

I just don't know. I can't separate it from my own possessive streak. What matters is what’s inside you.

Alex.



Hickory -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 10:33:46 AM)

Drawing from yet another topic regarding terminology, how are you defining "slave"?

To my uneducated and inexperienced mind, submission is a state of doing and self-slavery is a state of being. I deeply desire to serve my wife (jury still out on that one), and in so doing, consider that state to be self-slavery. Context, intensity, all driven by HER.

If I chose to serve another, for me it would be submission. Although I may obey, I would have to be in control of the context, intensity, etc. ("...can't come over and play/scrub floors/ [insert activity] 'cause I gotta shovel the driveway/ make dinner for the fam/ [insert activity]." Or, "You are allowed to do/ have me do thus and so, but not this and that, as my SO/ other obligations/ forbids it.")

Your definition of submissive/ slave may be very different.



ruffnecksbabygir -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 10:39:03 AM)

i wonder sometimes what it is that subs or doms for that matter, who are looking for relationships outside of their marriage are actually searching for, in the long run...i mean, if you happen to meet someone and you fall inlove with them, i can understand that happening while you are married, not that it is right or wrong, just that i can comprehend that....however, what i truly do not understand is a person that does not intend on ending their marriage and is seeking another relationship, and yet wonder if it can all work out.... ?

i understand the feelings of frustrations, i was in a vanilla marriage when i discovered my submission and the lifestyle, so i know what that feels like, however my marriage was failing miserably for more reasons than one....i knew my marriage was coming to it's end....and i did meet Masters online who mentored me and became a very special part of my life at that time however, i can't say that it did not impact my marriage....my marriage was already suffering, but i'd say that what opened my eyes more so to the realization that i had to end my marriage was the awakening of this lifestyle for me....it only emphasized the problems that were already there so much more for me....so, i'd say, no, you can't really have your cake and eat it too.... and of course i am not a Master, but i'm giving my .02 anyhow : )



[image]local://upfiles/77460/2F3CB5A6279445A292499B5AF41C5013.jpg[/image]



celestia -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 10:49:40 AM)

quote:

....so, i'd say, no, you can't really have your cake and eat it too....


If this is the case, then how does one that is in a vanilla marriage fulfill that need to serve? Are we left to suffer and be unfulfilled? I can't see this being good for the marriage either.



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 10:57:18 AM)

To me the answer is simply yes. I am owned, but I have other partners and a boyfriend. If things ever progressed to the point where it would be practical and reasonable for us to get married, there's no reason why we shouldn't, or why it would make my relationship to the Owner change at all. My boyfriend (the Non-Virgin in my journal) knows the Owner, understands the Owner is primary in all things and takes priority and accepts it.

Now, if you definition of a spouse is that the spouse should always be primary then you may have a conflict. To me a husband is a life partner with whom I would share life responsiblities and form a core unit with. There's no conflict between that and being owned to me.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 11:05:06 AM)

I really tried, but sorry, can't help myself, I have to post to this thread.....

NO, by any definition you can't own anyone married to another.

You say "owned", so it eliminates the never ending slave/submissive debate.

Rationalize all you want to justify your activity but someday you'll have to respect truth.

You can borrow a lawn-mower from your neighbor, but you're supposed to return it. If you have to return it you don't own it. If you don't return it you stole it, and you may get away with it, until your other neighbor steals it from you. After all, how can you trust a lawn-mower that lets itself be stolen?



ruffnecksbabygir -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 11:05:15 AM)

celestia,
what i wrote on my last post was only my own opinion on this, of course....everyone knows what is right for them. i can only take from my own experiences and based on that is why i believe that i just don't see how a marriage could possibly be successful if you (i mean "you" in general terms of course) are not honest with your spouse or yourself....this is assuming that we are speaking about a submissive have a dom behind her husbands back....but even if the husband knows and gives his blessings i still would tend to believe that it would probably not work out for the best in the long run...how can a woman serve her husband as his wife, and also be owned by a Master ... and how is that being an "owned slave"?
As far as having those submissives needs and being stuck in a vanilla marriage....i'd say you have to put things on a balance, really look at your marriage for what it is, if the only thing missing from your marriage is D/s then how important are these submissive feelings inside you as opposed to your marriage....are you willing to risk the marriage for D/s? can you maybe introduce your spouse to D/s? it's important to search for these answers and be honest with yourself and your spouse.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 11:08:08 AM)

quote:

then how does one that is in a vanilla marriage fulfill that need to serve?


Try communication, honesty and if you fail and can't agree. Wave as you leave.



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 11:20:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
You can borrow a lawn-mower from your neighbor, but you're supposed to return it. If you have to return it you don't own it. If you don't return it you stole it, and you may get away with it, until your other neighbor steals it from you. After all, how can you trust a lawn-mower that lets itself be stolen?


The Owner doesn't borrow from my boyfriend, the boyfriend is allowed use from the Owner. Being married wouldn't change that.

I don't let myself be stolen or borrowed, the Owner allows and encourages other relationships.



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 11:24:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffnecksbabygir
how can a woman serve her husband as his wife, and also be owned by a Master ... and how is that being an "owned slave"?

How can a woman serve a sick mother living at home and also be owned by a master? I would think a sick mother would take a lot more time and energy away than a self-sufficient husband would. But I don't think anyone will say that someone makes the slave less owned.

It's not about ACTIONS, it's about AUTHORITY. If the Owner allows the slave to marry, then the slave is acting within what the Owner considers best. The husband obviously would agree to that and know where his priorities are, just as he would if the wife's sick mother had to be cared for.



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 11:28:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffnecksbabygir
So, i'd say, no, you can't really have your cake and eat it too.... and of course i am not a Master, but i'm giving my .02 anyhow : )


I would say that is true, if your cake is a love based one.

From your other posts, you are looking for a Master to marry. You want romance and dominance from the same man. But what if you want two types of cake...one that is romantic and a seperate one that is about dominace.

It would take two very special men to understand that romance and dominance need not come from the same person...but I think it might indeed work.

Taggard



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 11:30:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
NO, by any definition you can't own anyone married to another.


How then do you explain that actual slaves in the pre-Civil War south were allowed to marry?

They were more "owned" then anyone on this board, and yet they were indeed married to people who were not their owners.

Taggard



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 11:39:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

then how does one that is in a vanilla marriage fulfill that need to serve?


Try communication, honesty and if you fail and can't agree. Wave as you leave.


(I will be referencing the terminology of this post.)

It seems to me that what we have is a few people who live (mostly) a number 4 type of D/s relationship giving advice those who need/desire a number 2 and/or 3 type relationship.

This is such a common conflict on these boards...and one which simply will not be resolved in any meaningful way, other than to say that people are different.

Taggard



onceburned -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 11:45:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
NO, by any definition you can't own anyone married to another.

How then do you explain that actual slaves in the pre-Civil War south were allowed to marry?


hmmm... I admit my knowledge of slave life (pre-1865) is rather sketchy, but I would think that any slaves marriage would have been to other slaves... and not to a free person.



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 11:47:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
NO, by any definition you can't own anyone married to another.

How then do you explain that actual slaves in the pre-Civil War south were allowed to marry?


hmmm... I admit my knowledge of slave life (pre-1865) is rather sketchy, but I would think that any slaves marriage would have been to other slaves... and not to a free person.


Why would that matter? The point is that slaves can indeed be married to a non-owner and yet still be fully owned. Right?

Taggard



ruffnecksbabygir -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 11:55:44 AM)

taggard,
i agree, there is not a set way to which we should or shouldn't live within this lifestyle...there are those who view bdsm as a bedroom fetish, those who only enjoy the play aspect of S&M, there are those who enjoy the technicalities of owning a slave, as you seem to, the making of the contracts, the protocols and possession of property and your feelings for that property do not play a role in the type of relationship you search for....i don't think anyone here is trying to convince anyone else of what is right or wrong....i know i am not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking ... to me it is all about the dynamics of tpe, it is a 24/7 reality, it isn't cyber, it isn't sex, it isn't a bedroom fetish, it is a D/s relationship with much intensity, love and trust involved, it thrives on honesty and respect and that is what this lifestyle means to me....not to say it is what the lifestyle means, just what it means to me....if i have a husband, a vanilla marriage, i am serving my husband as his wife, i devote my life to him and to my family....if i have an owner i am his slave, i devote myself to him ...how can i honestly be able to devote myself entirely to both? how can a Master own me if i am committed to another? i don't think we can compare a D/s relationship, as i see it, to caring for a sick mother, or to slavery pre civil war era....that's not relavent at all... a slave by that definition was not in a TPE relationship, that was completely different than what we are speaking of here....caring for a sick mother is not the same as serving a Master whom you are intimate with and give your body mind and soul to.....it's comparing apples to oranges...just not the same at all. You can pretend you own a slave, sure, you can cyber with your slave, or "use" her on the weekends, or whenever her husband allows, but you do not truly own her because she belongs to another.



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 12:01:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffnecksbabygir
how can i honestly be able to devote myself entirely to both? how can a Master own me if i am committed to another?


Perhaps you cannot. For me, I can be in multiple committed relationships, with the Owner always in primary authority.

quote:

caring for a sick mother is not the same as serving a Master whom you are intimate with and give your body mind and soul to.....it's comparing apples to oranges...

You misunderstood my example. In that example the sick mother was not taking the Owners place, but the husbands. Being committed to serving and caring for a sick relative living with you doesn't take away being committed and absolutely owned by someone else. Neither does being married.



songbird26 -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 12:01:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

It's not about ACTIONS, it's about AUTHORITY. If the Owner allows the slave to marry, then the slave is acting within what the Owner considers best. The husband obviously would agree to that and know where his priorities are, just as he would if the wife's sick mother had to be cared for.


I think that Celestia's question addresses a different situation: one where the marriage came first and is thus the established and primary relationship, and where the 'owner' would really have no say over that relationship or the marriage at all. A very different situation than allowing a slave to care for a sick mother, or have an outside relationship after the master/slave dynamic is already firmly established.

My take would be that the married 'slave' would be able to serve a master and submit to him, but not be fully 'owned': the marriage vows would, by nature of their chronological and emotional primacy, simply not allow the kind of focus, total dedication, and objectification that comes to my mind when 'ownership' is mentioned. With a very, very understanding and non-possessive spouse, the 'owner' might be able to govern a few things outside direct contact, but...in my mind, that's not really ownership. It's service. A third party's rights, opinions and feelings would always be considered by the 'slave' in making certain important decisions. Would the 'slave' divorce the husband if ordered by the 'owner'? Is it really 'slavery' if you say "I'll do anything you command, except in areas x, y and z of my life?" I honestly don't know; I've never pretended to be anything but a sub, and an unruly one at that, but if I were thinking of myself in terms of 'owner/slave' I'd have to think long and hard about these issues.

It's rare that events fall into place perfectly, so that we can have exactly what we want without any compromise whatsoever. If life would be miserable for a 'slave' without complete and absolute 'ownership'--miserable on the scale of living with a debilitating illness, or an emotional disorder, or something similar--then, in my mind, that married slave should take steps to clear the boards, so to speak, so that an 'owner' can take primary place in all things. If service will fill that need tolerably, then smaller compromises (and a spouse who should be nominated for sainthood, in my opinion), are necessary.

Of course, this all depends on how you personally view 'ownership' and how far you personalize and internalize the legal fiction of same.





songbird26 -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/1/2005 12:04:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

How then do you explain that actual slaves in the pre-Civil War south were allowed to marry?

They were more "owned" then anyone on this board, and yet they were indeed married to people who were not their owners.

Taggard



Taggard-

They were owned first, and then permitted to marry within the constraints of that ownership. The situation posed by Celestia above is, I think, completely different, since the sequence of events has been reversed. I assume (though I don't know) that when married free people were sold into slavery, that sale rendered the marriage (and any spousal rights) void.

-Songbird



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