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Consent and IQ - 1/24/2007 8:54:06 AM   
DeepWaters


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Joined: 4/16/2004
Status: offline 		Is there or should there be a cut off point in intelligence where consent is not considered to be possible? -- if so what's the cut off?
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RE: Consent and IQ - 1/24/2007 8:56:59 AM   
LadyCaitlyn


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Status: offline 		Consent can only be validated in societies view of what is normal acceptable behaviour outside of which anything is possible as being consent even death.

(in reply to DeepWaters)
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RE: Consent and IQ - 1/24/2007 9:10:05 AM   
onestandingstill


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeepWaters

Is there or should there be a cut off point in intelligence where consent is not considered to be possible? -- if so what's the cut off?


Your question to me seems to not be something I'd associate one to the other in at all.
Even not book smart persons have the ability to consent and have the right to make choices for themselves.
What are you really trying to get at?
Do you think some people are just here because they are too stuipd to know what they are doing here or something??

As far as being generally responsible of consent I'd say any one over age 12 should be able to know the difference in giving or not giving their consent. Though they may not have wisdom/maturity to make good choices.
Under that age I'd be concerned about cooersion and manipulations being factors in their choices.
Even the US Court considers kids as young as 10 have the ability to know their own preferences, though they may not understand what's best for them yet.
I think most adults without serious special needs have a general concept of what's happening and how they choose to feel about it.
suzanne

< Message edited by onestandingstill -- 1/24/2007 9:16:41 AM >

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RE: Consent and IQ - 1/24/2007 9:16:23 AM   
DeepWaters


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Status: offline 		no offense intended--you may be reading into something that is not there--  I was actually following a link from the natural selection thread reading about eugenics and sterilization and came across an old law that said two learning disabled people could not be affectionate towards each other...having had many conversations with friends about the value of consent---I was curious if anyone had more information to share about whether consent can be given be someone of sub par intelligence (my assumption is that a very smart person can manipulate a very dumb one)  but we all know that to assume makes an ass out of u and me ;)   fire away  

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RE: Consent and IQ - 1/24/2007 9:18:25 AM   
onestandingstill


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Status: offline 		Duh, I'm having a rough day at work and spoke too soon and WAY off subject.
Sorry about that.
I went back and corrected my answer.

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RE: Consent and IQ - 1/24/2007 9:28:24 AM   
onestandingstill


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeepWaters

no offense intended--you may be reading into something that is not there--  I was actually following a link from the natural selection thread reading about eugenics and sterilization and came across an old law that said two learning disabled people could not be affectionate towards each other...having had many conversations with friends about the value of consent---I was curious if anyone had more information to share about whether consent can be given be someone of sub par intelligence (my assumption is that a very smart person can manipulate a very dumb one)  but we all know that to assume makes an ass out of u and me ;)   fire away  

I read about that too, but not sure if it's the same couple or article.
I honestly would be concerned in if two special needs people had a child and lived on their own if the baby would be safe & it's educational needs would be met.
From personal experience my Uncle (god rest his soul) was of sub intelligence and considered special needs. He married a VERY strange woman of normal intelligence. They did have one kid.
From birth till around age 5 the kid had no concept her dad was anything other than her superman. After that in small doses she realized his shortcomings. By the time she was around 12 she indeed treated him with little or no respect and belttled him. Not only that, but she preyed on his ignorance to get just what se wanted of him. He unfortunately stayed wrapped around her little finger even though she treated him horribly and even stole from him when she could have asked for and recieved anything she wanted till he died.
Over all he ended up an embarrasment and pain in her butt to her, but she's a little shitty brat who's not normal and was spoiled rotten by both parents.
In a regular home, with a normal child (not the reincarnation of the Omen this brat is)  I wonder what would have been different.

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RE: Consent and IQ - 1/24/2007 9:37:09 AM   
DeepWaters


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Status: offline 		sounds like the power dynamic of little girl = manipulative tyrant, father as helpless dope --hey wait a minute isn't that the way its normally portrayed on TV :-?   this will spin off to the nature nurture debate I think...would a normal little girl (different from your cousin) been able to resist the corruption of power, while she was growing up?  (you're the expert on your family: so forgive me if I misinterperet)    

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RE: Consent and IQ - 1/24/2007 6:59:35 PM   
Termyn8or


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That is tragic. The "normal" Wife should've stepped in somehow. If kids do not respect Parents, they are doomed to lose their own self esteem in later life whether it was earned or bestowed. I think this kid is going to be screwed up in later life.

Kids need to want to please their Parents to grow up right, to have a work ethic. If nobody did anything about this though, I doubt they would do very well in this even had the girl's manipulation of Dad not happened.

You see when a child steals from a Parent (almost ready to say from anyone), the Parent has FUBARed the situation. The kid needed love of course and nurturing, but that kid also needed guidance and direction. Firm guidance and direction to not fall into materialism. They failed.

Anyway the OP raised a very interesting point, and it can go on from here. I don't think anyone should be allowed to have kids without prerequisites. If one were to ask my religion I would have to respond, selective breeding, abortion and euthenasia along with practiced eugenics.

Standards for what one would be able to call legal and lawful majority as a Citizen ? We can go into alot more. Voting for example. What if there is an area where the alot of SCIENTIFICALLY defined morons, idiots etc. Understand what I mean ? There used to be categories. But indeed I am not talking about the guy who cut me off on the highway, I am talking about people who do not reach normal intelligence by the age of sufferance.

So there are local issues, state issues and candidates.

Voting is giving consent to a candidate to take your money and alot of people hope he will not do much. It is bad enough now, just sit there, 99% of what you people do is bad, so just promise to do as little as possible, except to undo the damage that has been done. Guy said that he would get my vote.

I also think that only property owners should be allowed to vote on property tax levies. Alot of renters are stooopid enough to think they are not paying that, just wait until they see next year's lease. As a propertyowner, I have no obligation to pay the government to teach anyone else's kids. As an adult of sound mind I have the obligation to respect, nurture and teach any child I come across, along with my friends' kids, but that is more effective and doesn't cost money, just time.

Here is what gets me. Getting out of what the law should do, and getting into what we think, here is the $64 question:

The original subject is, if someone is say retarded, can they give consent, I assume that means to adult activities such as sex. Now by reason, if we want to take away the ability to consent, no matter where the line is drawn, there must be another parameter involved. The intelligence of the who is to consent.

Let's flip the coin over. The other side. That means that we need to encourage those kids with the brains, the ones of highe intelligence, the ability to consent. With that comes the ability to contract. So do we let 12 year olds go to work, buy a car and insure it themselves ? I am sure some can, there are prodigies out there, as well as kids who really do have their mind together.

Actually I would hope that a kid of 12 who is actually mature enough to do these things will have learned that it is not worth it. Enjoy this time in your life without much responsibility. Further you education. If you can get a degree by age 18, DO IT. Damn, I would've. I would, and for me to have the intelligence of an 18 year old my IQ would have to be about 30 or so. That is why they call it an intelligence quotient.

Also, this has to be done within reason. Just because a 7 year old gets good money for piano recitals because he is a prodigy, doesn't mean that he should be driving a Corvette. So does that mean that someone can be legally unable to give consent or enter into a contract ad infinitum until they reach a certain intelligence level ?

This is a tricky subject indeed.

T

(in reply to DeepWaters)
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RE: Consent and IQ - 1/25/2007 8:57:33 AM   
sub4hire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeepWaters

link from the natural selection thread reading about eugenics and sterilization and came across an old law that said two learning disabled people could not be affectionate towards each other...


I haven't followed your link.  However I do know about learning disabled people.  Most of them are much more affectionate than any of us.  Their sex drives make ours almost obsolete.  So, as far as that idea goes it is incorrect. 

As far as smart people manipulating ignorant people.  People manipulate people daily.  Doesn't necessarily have to be more intellectual.  It only makes it easier to do so.
For instance...a woman who is rather dull can generally manipulate a man if she has good looks and a good body can she not?

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RE: Consent and IQ - 1/25/2007 9:14:10 AM   
freyjasdottir


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From: PA
Status: offline 		I work with the mentally challenged and we were told they could consent to others within their ability range but not give consent for events with *normal* individuals.

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RE: Consent and IQ - 1/25/2007 10:11:51 AM   
SmokingGun82


Posts: 575
Joined: 6/19/2004
Status: offline 		I believe, in most states at least, you're right, frey. From a legal standpoint, someone who is mentally handicapped beyond a certain degree (severely, usually) cannot consent to anything with someone who is "normal." It goes beyond sex- you'd find it damned hard to enter into a contract with someone who is at that level of handicap and have it enforceable in court.

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RE: Consent and IQ - 1/25/2007 11:21:16 AM   
onestandingstill


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Joined: 8/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeepWaters

sounds like the power dynamic of little girl = manipulative tyrant, father as helpless dope --hey wait a minute isn't that the way its normally portrayed on TV :-?   this will spin off to the nature nurture debate I think...would a normal little girl (different from your cousin) been able to resist the corruption of power, while she was growing up?  (you're the expert on your family: so forgive me if I misinterperet)    

Hi Deep Waters,
I'm truthfully not sure.
This is the only case of a special needs (retarded -hate the word) person raising a child I know of.
The mother though normal intelligence is very odd and in my opinion not very normal either though she's a functional adult.
Neither my Uncle or Aunt ever made any rules and structure for my cousin to obey or follow.
I often wonder with two normal parents if this particular child could have grown up much different.
The only thing I'd be able to do is assume, yes, she would have been different if she'd not known she was fully in charge at age 3 thus part of her problems are fully their making.
suzanne

(in reply to DeepWaters)
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RE: Consent and IQ - 1/26/2007 5:13:11 PM   
hereyesruponyou


Posts: 770
Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline 		I get to deal with this general subject daily and it's really such a fine line.  Imagine having the hormones and instinct of an adult and the judgement of a 3-10 year old. The younger the level of development the more likely they will consent to anything without really "knowing" what they are doing. They know what all kids know. "That's fun or that feels good so i want to do it".  Is someone who then engages in sexual activity of any kind then taking advantage of them. Honestly I think that has to be decided on a case by case basis. Personally I think they deserve to feel good too.

As for the legal aspects, I have been caught in the middle of several situations where one "challenged" individual accused another of unwanted sexual advances (from rubbing against them and propositioning them to confirmed anal sex).  In these cases what I have experienced have been police officers and attorney generals who are willing to look at the whole situation and conclude when both individuals are of a certain IQ level that they will be found Not Criminally Responsible, and therefore we pursue counseling etc... but not legal redress (other than occaisionally a restraining order).

From what I have learned from the officers I have worked with, if one of the individuals had been of normal intelligence and these accusations had been made against them, they would have been prosecuted EVEN if the only evidence was the disabled persons word.  I personally can see the point of both sides in the conflicts I have been involved in and I just hope to never be in that situation myself.

(in reply to onestandingstill)
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RE: Consent and IQ - 1/27/2007 7:59:15 PM   
CandleInTheWind


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Status: offline 		just soo you know in my area special needs include kids that are in wheel chairs, difficulty in reading but have a "normal" IQ, as well as those with a subpar IQ

red

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RE: Consent and IQ - 2/1/2007 6:49:44 PM   
CMastersen


Posts: 63
Joined: 2/1/2007
Status: offline 		For many years I worked with disabled adults.
When it came to sex, once they had all of the risks of sex explained to them they could then choose to have sex or not WITH a review by their Social Worker to determine if they were able to fully understand the risk.
The way it worked out was:
If they decided not to have sex after having the risks explained to them then they had adequete understanding and it was duely noted that they were able to make the choice on sexual consent and choose not to.
If they decided to have sex after haveing the risks explained to them then the Social Worker was suppose to (and did) determine that they did not have the understanding to make the choice of sexual consent and thus were not allowed to have sex.
Very simple but time consuming procedure.
They all were over 21 and had the choice - pending review!!!

(in reply to LadyCaitlyn)
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RE: Consent and IQ - 2/13/2007 1:42:25 PM   
VeryMercurial


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Joined: 6/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeepWaters

Is there or should there be a cut off point in intelligence where consent is not considered to be possible? -- if so what's the cut off?



Wonderful question, this is a lifestyle in which many can easily be taken advantage of.

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RE: Consent and IQ - 2/14/2007 1:39:25 AM   
obey1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeepWaters

Is there or should there be a cut off point in intelligence where consent is not considered to be possible? -- if so what's the cut off?



Um, I think if brought before a judge and could be proven, an IQ of 85 or below could be argued.  But the test questions would have to be given in the native language.  I had a girlfriend/switch with an 'english' IQ of 84 but she was never tested in Spanish.

Edited to add over the age of 18 in most states.

< Message edited by obey1 -- 2/14/2007 1:41:48 AM >

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RE: Consent and IQ - 2/15/2007 8:25:11 AM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline 		For legal purposes, persons with cognitive disabilities are considered competant.  They can vote, sign contracts, consent to medical treatment and the like.  There's no reason to assume that a person with such a disability would not, in principal, be unable to give consent or are easier to manipulate than anyone else.  Anyone, regardless of their intelligence level, is vulnerable to manipulation.  To me, that sort of vulnerability seems to have more to do with 'emotional intelligence' than intelectual capacity.  I have a 13 year old with mental retardation and its really hard to trick him into doing something he doesn't want to do.  He know what he wants and is not easily persuaded otherwise.  Of course, that doesn't mean he knows the ABC's.  But, that's a different issue. :)

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RE: Consent and IQ - 2/15/2007 8:29:20 AM   
asubmissiveheart


Posts: 462
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Status: offline 		I don't know why the focus is on those considered mentally incompetent.  There are millions of people similar to say Anna
Nicole, that are operating freely but clearly have serious issues.
I would like to see more written about those people.  We all know plenty of people that are not dealing with a full deck, but
are legally free.

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RE: Consent and IQ - 2/15/2007 2:38:29 PM   
hereyesruponyou


Posts: 770
Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline 		 I agree that people with mental retardation (classified as an IQ below 70 in my state) are able to enter into legal contracts etc. and I know that it is actually VERY difficult to get them declared incompetent. Of the over 100 clients our agency has, only 2 have legal guardians. The rest are free to do as they choose.
 
The problem comes when sex gets involved and someone convinces them they were wrong or bad to do what they wanted to do. I have dealt with several consensual instances where once a counselor or parent got involved the story changed and the police showed up. As a matter of fact if a staff member of mine is even accused we must suspend them until an investigation is complete. The last time that happened it was over 2 years before the police determined there was not enough evidence to charge the person. Fair? not in my opinion, but the law sides on protecting the "victim" in this case.

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