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RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 5:43:19 AM

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quote:

Can Bush Co. seriously be considering expanding the war into Iran? And do they expect an easy ride considering the false intelligence used to justify the present mess?

Since they're getting arrested or tried for the Crimes committed already, why should they think they would be held accountable at this time?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Zensee)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 6:38:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Can Bush Co. seriously be considering expanding the war into Iran? And do they expect an easy ride considering the false intelligence used to justify the present mess? How many more lives can one man's hubris take? Stay tuned (as if you have any friggin' choice) for the next installment of As the Axe Grinds...

1) Most definitely. The alternative is Iran gets nukes, Saudi and Egypt follow suit and the US government's hold in the Middle East is seriously weakened.

2) The Iranian President's speeches are being deliberately misrepresented with the goal of painting him as a lunatic (for example, the supposed "wiping off the face of the map" speech). Also, we are hearing the same old, tired lines of "these people are a threat to our well being". It is almost a carbon copy of Iraq and their alleged involvement with Al-quaeda. The foundations are being laid and over the next 6 months it will be lots of "we must kill them or they will kill us".

Realistically, I can only see one outcome, but time will tell.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Zensee)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 6:41:45 AM

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NorthernGent:
Yup....same mud different day.
thompson

(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 8:41:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Can Bush Co. seriously be considering expanding the war into Iran? And do they expect an easy ride considering the false intelligence used to justify the present mess?

Since they're getting arrested or tried for the Crimes committed already, why should they think they would be held accountable at this time?

Who's going to arrest and try them? The Belgium government gave the Bush administration immunity. The US Senate voted 99-0 a few years ago to basically tell the Internationa Criminal Court to go f*** themselves. And Nancy Pelosi has said there will be no impeachment hearings. So in a few years, when Bush's term is up, he'll live out the rest of his life back at his ranch in Texas. Nothing is going to happen.

As for Iran, the situation is serious. Israel right now has about 400 nuclear weapons. Prime Minister Olmert has an approval rating of 28% right now. His centrist party is on the verge of falling apart which will once again open the door for the Lekud party to come in. And that party strongly supports pre-emptive strike on Iran. There is some talk that Benjamin Natanyahu is planning to run again. If he's elected, there is no question, Israel will engage Iran and possibly Syria. And we are in deep, deep crap. Because oil will go up well above $100 a barrel which will cause problems for the US and EU economies. Iran is also allies with Hugo Chavez who would very easily decide to turn off the oil. So we would be sucked into a war with Venezuela as well. All this may very well be the early signs of World War 3.

All the biggest oil reserves right now are being controlled by dictators. So it will be easy for the US to go to war against those countries in order to capture those reserves.

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 8:47:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Can Bush Co. seriously be considering expanding the war into Iran? And do they expect an easy ride considering the false intelligence used to justify the present mess?

Since they're getting arrested or tried for the Crimes committed already, why should they think they would be held accountable at this time?

Who's going to arrest and try them?

Since 18 USC 371 is a FEDERAL CRIME, that would be US Marshals and Federal Prosecutors.

Remember, MARTHA STEWART went to prison for less.

And I never mentioned IMPEACHMENT. I'm talking about INDICTMENT. There's a difference.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to cyberdude611)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 8:57:57 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Can Bush Co. seriously be considering expanding the war into Iran? And do they expect an easy ride considering the false intelligence used to justify the present mess?

Since they're getting arrested or tried for the Crimes committed already, why should they think they would be held accountable at this time?

Who's going to arrest and try them? The Belgium government gave the Bush administration immunity. The US Senate voted 99-0 a few years ago to basically tell the Internationa Criminal Court to go f*** themselves. And Nancy Pelosi has said there will be no impeachment hearings. So in a few years, when Bush's term is up, he'll live out the rest of his life back at his ranch in Texas. Nothing is going to happen.

As for Iran, the situation is serious. Israel right now has about 400 nuclear weapons. Prime Minister Olmert has an approval rating of 28% right now. His centrist party is on the verge of falling apart which will once again open the door for the Lekud party to come in. And that party strongly supports pre-emptive strike on Iran. There is some talk that Benjamin Natanyahu is planning to run again. If he's elected, there is no question, Israel will engage Iran and possibly Syria. And we are in deep, deep crap. Because oil will go up well above $100 a barrel which will cause problems for the US and EU economies. Iran is also allies with Hugo Chavez who would very easily decide to turn off the oil. So we would be sucked into a war with Venezuela as well. All this may very well be the early signs of World War 3.

All the biggest oil reserves right now are being controlled by dictators. So it will be easy for the US to go to war against those countries in order to capture those reserves.

cyberdude611:
I thought Hugo Chavez was elected to be president of Venezuela and then after a U.S. sponsored coup against him he was returned to office by an overwhelming majority of the electorate.
The fellow in Iran...I thought he was elected to be president.
Why do you characterize these democratically elected leaders as dictators or were you unaware that they were elected .
When you say the U.S. will go to war to capture those reserves is that a euphimism for thugging them out of their oil?
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 2/12/2007 9:01:03 AM >

(in reply to cyberdude611)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 9:29:39 AM

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Hitler was elected also, and then given unlimtied power by the assembly, just like Hugo. So I guess if you are arguing that Hitler was not a dictator, your point makes sense. Iran is run by a dictatorial commitee, they can veto any act that the president or parliment passes, and they can issue decrees that overrule the "elected part" of the gov. Also they get final say on who can stand for office.

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 9:31:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Can Bush Co. seriously be considering expanding the war into Iran? And do they expect an easy ride considering the false intelligence used to justify the present mess?

Since they're getting arrested or tried for the Crimes committed already, why should they think they would be held accountable at this time?

Who's going to arrest and try them? The Belgium government gave the Bush administration immunity. The US Senate voted 99-0 a few years ago to basically tell the Internationa Criminal Court to go f*** themselves. And Nancy Pelosi has said there will be no impeachment hearings. So in a few years, when Bush's term is up, he'll live out the rest of his life back at his ranch in Texas. Nothing is going to happen.

As for Iran, the situation is serious. Israel right now has about 400 nuclear weapons. Prime Minister Olmert has an approval rating of 28% right now. His centrist party is on the verge of falling apart which will once again open the door for the Lekud party to come in. And that party strongly supports pre-emptive strike on Iran. There is some talk that Benjamin Natanyahu is planning to run again. If he's elected, there is no question, Israel will engage Iran and possibly Syria. And we are in deep, deep crap. Because oil will go up well above $100 a barrel which will cause problems for the US and EU economies. Iran is also allies with Hugo Chavez who would very easily decide to turn off the oil. So we would be sucked into a war with Venezuela as well. All this may very well be the early signs of World War 3.

All the biggest oil reserves right now are being controlled by dictators. So it will be easy for the US to go to war against those countries in order to capture those reserves.

Dude.....are you kidding me? Just how much longer do you think the American people are going allow every politician to declare war on another sovereign country who doesn't want to sell us and/or control their oil?

Are you really that brainwashed?

I'll tell ya what.... if this greedy bastard stuff keeps happening, I predict it won’t be long before some of these politicians have the hell beat out of them by angry mobs of people.

I dunno about you....but I'll push a bicycle before we have to go to war with every country that doesn’t let our corporations have control over their oil.

- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 2/12/2007 9:32:44 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to cyberdude611)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 9:40:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Hitler was elected also, and then given unlimtied power by the assembly, just like Hugo.
Kinda like bush & co and the patriot act?

So I guess if you are arguing that Hitler was not a dictator, your point makes sense.

Perhaps you should do a little more reading about all of the nuances of Hitler's rise to power. Unless you are complacent with your current level of knowledge.

Iran is run by a dictatorial commitee, they can veto any act that the president or parliment passes
Kinda like the supreme court?

and they can issue decrees that overrule the "elected part" of the gov. Also they get final say on who can stand for office.

Kinda like the DNC & RNC?
thompson

(in reply to luckydog1)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 9:42:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

cyberdude611:
I thought Hugo Chavez was elected to be president of Venezuela and then after a U.S. sponsored coup against him he was returned to office by an overwhelming majority of the electorate.
The fellow in Iran...I thought he was elected to be president.
Why do you characterize these democratically elected leaders as dictators or were you unaware that they were elected .
When you say the U.S. will go to war to capture those reserves is that a euphimism for thugging them out of their oil?
thompson

thompsonx....a little update...Chavez has shut down opposition media to his regime, he has packed the national assembly with his supporters, there are daily clashes in the streets, the president just adding fuel to the political violence...he was a former coup leader who tried to take power in 1992 by force and failed...and now his "assembly" of yes men have given him an 18 month mandate to rule by decree (this means without congress or anyone's approval, changings laws and passing laws as he likes)....now tell me how is that not a dictatorship? General Pinochet and his military junta ruled with decrees and yet had less power than this clown and was called a "dictator" at the very least.

As for Iran, the actual revolutionary regime came to power by force in 1979, killed hundreds of thousands who were in the armed forces and government ministers under the Shah and anyone who was opposed to their oppressive theocratic rule (notice under the Shah women were allowed to work and drive cars; now they have to go around with male relatives and their head covered)....now in the 1990's the Iranian people have a limited choice between hardcore hardliners and populists who differ little from each other...therefore the whole government in Tehran lacks political legitimacy. Iran and Venezuela are doing ok because those regimes are proped up by oil.

< Message edited by MasterKalif -- 2/12/2007 9:44:18 AM >

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 9:52:06 AM

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If Bush can build secret prisons and deprive people of Equal Protection and Due Process, why not everyone?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to MasterKalif)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 9:58:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

cyberdude611:
I thought Hugo Chavez was elected to be president of Venezuela and then after a U.S. sponsored coup against him he was returned to office by an overwhelming majority of the electorate.
The fellow in Iran...I thought he was elected to be president.
Why do you characterize these democratically elected leaders as dictators or were you unaware that they were elected .
When you say the U.S. will go to war to capture those reserves is that a euphimism for thugging them out of their oil?
thompson

thompsonx....a little update...Chavez has shut down opposition media to his regime, he has packed the national assembly with his supporters, there are daily clashes in the streets, the president just adding fuel to the political violence...he was a former coup leader who tried to take power in 1992 by force and failed.

As I remember my american history George Washington was a coup leader who became president.

..and now his "assembly" of yes men have given him an 18 month mandate to rule by decree (this means without congress or anyone's approval, changings laws and passing laws as he likes)....now tell me how is that not a dictatorship?
Kinda like bush & co. and the republican "rubber stamp" congress and the patriot act?

General Pinochet and his military junta ruled with decrees and yet had less power than this clown and was called a "dictator" at the very least.

What would you guess is the difference in body count between Pinochet and Chavez.

As for Iran, the actual revolutionary regime came to power by force in 1979, killed hundreds of thousands who were in the armed forces and government ministers
My understanding is that the Shah was not exactly shy about executing large numbers of his detractors.

under the Shah and anyone who was opposed to their oppressive theocratic rule (notice under the Shah women were allowed to work and drive cars; now they have to go around with male relatives and their head covered)....now in the 1990's the Iranian people have a limited choice between hardcore hardliners and populists who differ little from each other

I would suggest that that is Iran's problem and not the U.S.

...therefore the whole government in Tehran lacks political legitimacy.
Isn't political legitimacy a defacto function of power?

Iran and Venezuela are doing ok because those regimes are proped up by oil.
I suppose everyone needs something to hold them up. I guess oil is as good as any other comodity.
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 2/12/2007 10:04:12 AM >

(in reply to MasterKalif)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 10:01:32 AM

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Thompson? Bush does not have unlimited power under the patriot act, nor can he rule by decree. To call him a dictator is just nonsense. The plans of dictators are not stopped by filibusters. Lets please stay in reality. What specifically about hitler's rise to power are you refering to? Simply making a broad meaningless statement like you did means nothing. Hugo has been given the power to rule as a dictator(by decree), just like hitler was. The DNC and RNC have no power to say who can run on the green or libertarian ticket. Nor who can run as an independant. The Supreme court can only rule against laws that violate the constitution. And the Constitution can be amended by 2 differnt methods. the people or the elected government. even if one person had all the power of the USSC, RNC, and DNC combined it would not be a dictator.

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 10:02:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Hitler was elected also, and then given unlimtied power by the assembly, just like Hugo. So I guess if you are arguing that Hitler was not a dictator, your point makes sense. Iran is run by a dictatorial commitee, they can veto any act that the president or parliment passes, and they can issue decrees that overrule the "elected part" of the gov. Also they get final say on who can stand for office.

So was that other warmonger, GWB.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to luckydog1)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 10:04:20 AM

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quote:

Thompson? Bush does not have unlimited power under the patriot act, nor can he rule by decree. To call him a dictator is just nonsense. The plans of dictators are not stopped by filibusters. Lets please stay in reality.

Tell that to those held without Equal Protection and Due Process.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 10:17:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Thompson? Bush does not have unlimited power under the patriot act, nor can he rule by decree. To call him a dictator is just nonsense.

He can and has suspended habius corpus, wiretaps without court order, secret prisons.
Nah that is not dictotorial.....is it?

The plans of dictators are not stopped by filibusters. Lets please stay in reality. What specifically about hitler's rise to power are you refering to? Simply making a broad meaningless statement like you did means nothing. Hugo has been given the power to rule as a dictator(by decree), just like hitler was. The DNC and RNC have no power to say who can run on the green or libertarian ticket. Nor who can run as an independant.
Perhaps you might tell me when in the last century or so has anyone been elected to the presidency who was not a demopub or a republicrat?

The Supreme court can only rule against laws that violate the constitution.
Actually it is the supreme court who decides whether it is constitutional or not.

And the Constitution can be amended by 2 differnt methods. the people or the elected government.

You are going to have to refresh my memory here ...how do the people get to ammend the constitution?

even if one person had all the power of the USSC, RNC, and DNC combined it would not be a dictator.
So if I have the power to say what is constitutional and and what is not. Who gets to be president and who gets to be in congres. I would not be a dictator? Well I would have to disagree with that assessment.
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 2/12/2007 10:20:02 AM >

(in reply to luckydog1)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 10:22:07 AM

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DICTATOR OR FREEDOM?

Here's a snippet from testimony archived at the DOD.

abbasi: So, you are telling me I am an enemy combatant. I am telling you by special Geneva Conventions, I am a non-combatant….

tribunal president: Once again, international law does not matter here. Geneva Convention does not matter here. What matters here and I am concerned about and what I really want to get to is your status as enemy combatant based upon the evidence that has been provided and your actions while you were in Afghanistan. If you deviate from that one more time you will be removed from this tribunal and we will continue to hear evidence without you being present….

abbasi: I know, but I have the right to speak….

tribunal president: No, you don’t.

abbasi: And the personal representative told me I can say whatever I like.

tribunal president: He was mistaken if he told you that….

[Abbasi continues to speak at length.]

tribunal president: Once again…international law…. [Abbasi interrupts.] Mr. Abbasi, your conduct is unacceptable and this is your absolute final warning. I don’t care about international law. I don’t want to hear the words “international law” again. We are not concerned with international law.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 10:22:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Can Bush Co. seriously be considering expanding the war into Iran? And do they expect an easy ride considering the false intelligence used to justify the present mess?

Since they're getting arrested or tried for the Crimes committed already, why should they think they would be held accountable at this time?

Who's going to arrest and try them? The Belgium government gave the Bush administration immunity. The US Senate voted 99-0 a few years ago to basically tell the Internationa Criminal Court to go f*** themselves. And Nancy Pelosi has said there will be no impeachment hearings. So in a few years, when Bush's term is up, he'll live out the rest of his life back at his ranch in Texas. Nothing is going to happen.

As for Iran, the situation is serious. Israel right now has about 400 nuclear weapons. Prime Minister Olmert has an approval rating of 28% right now. His centrist party is on the verge of falling apart which will once again open the door for the Lekud party to come in. And that party strongly supports pre-emptive strike on Iran. There is some talk that Benjamin Natanyahu is planning to run again. If he's elected, there is no question, Israel will engage Iran and possibly Syria. And we are in deep, deep crap. Because oil will go up well above $100 a barrel which will cause problems for the US and EU economies. Iran is also allies with Hugo Chavez who would very easily decide to turn off the oil. So we would be sucked into a war with Venezuela as well. All this may very well be the early signs of World War 3.

All the biggest oil reserves right now are being controlled by dictators. So it will be easy for the US to go to war against those countries in order to capture those reserves.

Dude.....are you kidding me? Just how much longer do you think the American people are going allow every politician to declare war on another sovereign country who doesn't want to sell us and/or control their oil?

Are you really that brainwashed?

I'll tell ya what.... if this greedy bastard stuff keeps happening, I predict it won’t be long before some of these politicians have the hell beat out of them by angry mobs of people.

I dunno about you....but I'll push a bicycle before we have to go to war with every country that doesn’t let our corporations have control over their oil.

- R

When people realize that their way of life is being determined by overseas dictators, they will favor war. The United States economy is ran on oil. If oil prices go up, it costs more to transport goods. Employees have to pay more money just to get to work or school. The entire economy is connected to oil. And it is well beyond the point of no return. Experts say that it will take 30 years or more for the US to get off foreign dependance of oil. It took Brazil 30 years to get off foreign energy dependance.

Maybe you are willing to ride a bike. But I assure you the majority of Americas are not willing to do that. They will go to war.
Welcome to civilization. This is been going on for about 6,000 years now. Nations and empires have gone to war many dozens of times just to capture more natural resources.

And there is going to be a war. No one is going to allow Iran to have nukes. The Israelis will bomb the living hell out of them and you already know that Israel doesn't give a damn what the rest of the world says.

So I really dont know what you want to do here....

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 10:24:55 AM

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Thompson. please stay in reality.....

"A coup d'état (pronounced 'kū dā ta'), or simply a 'coup', is the sudden overthrow of a government, usually done by a small group that just replaces the top power figures. It is different from a revolution, which is staged by a larger group and radically changes the political system. The term is French for "a sudden stroke, or blow, of a state". ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup

Washington did not lead a coup. Please tell me you have heard of the Articles of Confederation. You are aware that we had an entirley different government after the revolution, before the Current Constitution was formed, are you not? Washington played no Political part in the first one. And was elected by the people after the new constition was created, aprox 15 years after the revolution. To say Washington was a coup leader is nonsense.

Again, lets stay in reality...the patriot act does not give Bush power to rule by decree. Dictators do not lose control of assemblies by elections. There is no rubber stamp republican congress, it was voted out by the people, that doesn't happen in dictatorships.

Body count for pinochet v hugo? Hugo has only been a dictator for a few weeks. You are actually comparing aprox 25 years to 3 weeks? Pinochet had 3000 dead. Can't find any numbers on Chavez, but he is just geting started. Over 100 were killed in his 90s attempt to sieze power.

(in reply to luckydog1)

RE: From the Administration That Cried Wolf - 2/12/2007 10:26:34 AM

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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Bodycount of Chavez v. Bush?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)

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