RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breath play or noose play and the submissive "died

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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/15/2007 8:14:09 AM

topcat

Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OnyxGoddess
Out of curiosity....isn't there some set up "danger" warning signal established before play? Like tapping out, moving a body part, a monitored reflexive action that would keep this sort of thing from happening? Stuff like that might prevent any of these issues from occurring. I remember an issue like this in ASK A MISTRESS about queening/breathplay.

Dear OG-

Well, yes, there should be some sort of safeword/signal in place- trouble is, they are not reliable, and unconciousness does sort of sneak up on one...

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to OnyxGoddess)

Post #: 21

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/15/2007 8:19:59 AM

KeirasSecret

Posts: 415
Joined: 8/17/2006
From: central NH
Status: offline

What if the situation is one like what I saw mentioned in another thread, where the submissive was intentionally trying to make their self pass out? What if the submissive had done this so much that it caused a brain aneurism (if that can happen) or something like it, then, maybe there would not be any signs; right?

Be well,

< Message edited by KeirasSecret -- 2/15/2007 8:20:35 AM >

_____________________________

It apears to me, the practice of "an eye for an eye" has finally taken it's toll; the majority are now walking around blind.

Bitching; whining in a louder voice.

If the truth hurts, change it!

(in reply to topcat)

Post #: 22

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/15/2007 5:54:36 PM

SirDiscipliner69

Posts: 2607
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaryT

Oh, lookie there, progress - a direct statement. How refreshing. I do not post on all the numerous threads that you start for no apparent reason. If you really do not see what is wrong with your OP, that is probably a good thing. If you sat down at a munch and repeated a few of the questions you've asked here in the last couple days, there would be red flags flying up all over the place. Can't you see why?

Why do you need others to spell out morality for you? Why do you always post question after question after question about a fictional "them" and respond to answers with more questions and weirdly passive statements instead of your own thoughts. Has it occurred to you that you are strangely absent from your own posts? Do you think that comes across as somehow appealing?

Seems you need validation of some sort and that is ok but you seem to come across pretty negatively.

I realize your profile states you joined 12/06 and have 543 post...lot of time on the computer for such a short time...

I have been posting for about a few years here even if it says otherwise...seems the profile was redone and deleted a few times...

I start up discussions for positive reasons...not to draw the negative energy you seem to display...

I really do not need to justify Myself to you or does anyone else simply because you make some statement you think is clever but I might suggest it does not bring out your best side.

Yes I know there are some that like negative attention rather than no attention but I really think I am going to block you or simply not respond to your quips.

I know rejection is hard to handle for some so why don't you just ignore My post and let others that have some interest respond without fear of retailiation from you...food for thought.

The reason I may be absent from My posts is they need to go thru a process here on the sight I simply do not care to share with you.

I am going to leave you with a little story...see if you can figure out the point mary.

Frank was excited about his new rifle and decided to try bear hunting.
He spotted a small brown bear and shot it. Right after, there was a tap
on his shoulder and he turned around to see a big black bear. The black bear said, "That was my cousin and you've got two choices.
Either I maul you to death or we have sex." After considering briefly, Frank decided to concede to the latter. Even though he felt sore for two weeks, Frank soon recovered and vowed
revenge. He headed out on another trip where he found the black bear and
shot it. Right after, there was another tap on his shoulder. This time a huge grizzly bear stood right next to him. The grizzly said,
"That was a big mistake, Frank. That was my cousin and you've got two
choices. Either I maul you to death or we have rough sex."
Again, Frank thought it was better to cooperate.
Although he survived, it took several months before Frank finally
recovered. Outraged he headed back to the woods, managed to track down
the grizzly and shot it. He felt sweet revenge, but then, there was a
tap on his shoulder. He turned around to find a giant polar bear standing there. The polar
bear looked at him very sadly and said, "Admit it, Frank -- You don't
come here for the hunting, do you?" Ross
©º°¨¨°º©

(in reply to MaryT)

Post #: 23

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/15/2007 7:16:27 PM

MiztrezzAlicia

Posts: 11
Joined: 2/1/2007
Status: offline

My two cents. CPR,First Aid and a defibrillator. Are all nice things to have if you are doing breath control. I think it would be horrible if someone died while playing with me. I'd feel sad but honestly, they know what the risk were before hand. I can't say how I would feel if someone died by my hand, I haven't experienced it. I don't see were it would be a moral issue. If the person is revived it's not murder I wouldn't think. Whether you would face any charges I guess it would depend on the situation and the state you are in.

Lots of forms of scene play have some level of risk. I am an edge player and love playing on the edge. Would the above situation stop me from playing.` It would deter me from doing breath play again, for a little while until I worked though the feelings. I do all kind of play but, edge play is my favorite. I think that if i was afraid of playing on the edge I would have to just give it up completely and that isn't going to happen.

The more knowledge and training that you have before hand the better chance that little will go wrong. There is always a risk however.
Mistress Alicia

(in reply to KeirasSecret)

Post #: 24

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/15/2007 7:32:35 PM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

Stephann: Thanks for the reply - but - I was responding to the OP, not you. I wasn't trying to be rude, either - just stating my opinion. I appreciate your response, though.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 25

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/15/2007 7:52:36 PM

Wolf1020

Posts: 447
Joined: 11/7/2005
From: Anderson, SC
Status: offline

Murder implies that you intended to kill someone, planned or otherwise doesn't matter that is why we have first and second degree murder.

Manslaughter is committing an act that a person understands to be potentially lethal but the intent was not to kill someone. IE throwing someone out a window in a bar fight, driving recklessly (vehicular manslaughter), or in our case entering possibly dangerous play and death resulting.

My vote goes to as presented this would by no means be murder but manslaughter.

IANAL but I have an interest in studying laws so take of my thinking as you will.

On a side note I have been gone for awhile what in the hell is with these messed up questions from this guy?

_____________________________

"The less people know about how sausages and laws are made, the better they'll sleep at night."~ Otto von Bismarck

"Fish and visitors smell in three days"~Benjamin Franklin

(in reply to KeirasSecret)

Post #: 26

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/15/2007 8:13:25 PM

KeirasSecret

Posts: 415
Joined: 8/17/2006
From: central NH
Status: offline

quote:

My vote goes to as presented this would by no means be murder but manslaughter

Doesn't the person have to die for it to be manslaughter?

Be well,

< Message edited by KeirasSecret -- 2/15/2007 8:15:28 PM >

_____________________________

It apears to me, the practice of "an eye for an eye" has finally taken it's toll; the majority are now walking around blind.

Bitching; whining in a louder voice.

If the truth hurts, change it!

(in reply to Wolf1020)

Post #: 27

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/22/2007 1:23:58 AM

SirDiscipliner69

Posts: 2607
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDiscipliner69
So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breath play or noose play and the submissive "died" but was rescitated by a safety monitor or paramedic would the dominant be morally guilty of killing the submissive?

Morally guilty? You mean should he feel guilt? Something is either moral or immoral.

It depends on the circumstances. He was involved in a serious situation, beyond that, we can't say whether he deliberately caused the death or was simply involved.

Should a mountain climber be considered morally guilty if their climbing partner dies?

By a jury of his leather friendly peers or otherwise I am sure the person would be liable both morally and legally regardless of the intent of keeping the submissive safe.

Fact remains the participation of such activities could be considered a lapse of judgement by mainstreem America and the dominant considered a threat to society.

Sometimes when one is surrounded and insulated by those of simuliar activities or those who enjoy certain proclivities it slowly erodes or represses the guilt or taboo factor that may have been there originally by norms inmplaced by society.

One might argue that such mountain climber regardless of intentions knew of potential risks yet aware of such they proceeded any way showing intent of risk by resulting actions begetting fatal conclusions.

Ross
©º°¨¨°º©

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 28

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/22/2007 6:20:11 AM

MasterC70

Posts: 68
Joined: 1/31/2007
Status: offline

I think it would be better to avoid the actual incident by not using breathe play with anyone. Anyone can have a heart attack during sex and die, but such a death is accepted by most people as something not to be brought to trial because there was no perceived intent to harm the other person. It was just an accident, usually due to an unknown medical condition. Doing something that deliberatly blocks the ability of someone to breathe at all I would think would go a long way to show intent to cause harm.
Example:
Houdini (the magician) died from appenicitis as a result of being hit by a young man who wanted to test Houdini's ability to take a punch. The young man didn't intend to harm Houdini. He didn't know that Houdini's appendix was close to bursting, and that he would do so with his punch. As he didn't know that Houdini would be harmed by the punch, he isn't morally responsible and I don't think he was found to be legally responsible either. If he had taken an iron bar and hit Houdini on the head though, then he would have been both morally and legally responsible for killing Houdini.

Likewise many Doms/Domme's/Master's/Mistresses likely use gags of some sort on their subs/slaves during play but they do leave the sub/slave with a way to breathe normally. They don't intend to cause grave or permament harm to the sub/slave during play. It's when you block off all the ways for a slave to breathe (nose and mouth) that you cross the line into "the intent to cause harm." At least that's my own opinion about it. I'm not a lawyer, but I would think they would have to prove intent at the very least.

< Message edited by MasterC70 -- 2/22/2007 6:23:26 AM >

(in reply to KeirasSecret)

Post #: 29

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/22/2007 7:23:23 AM

ldmila

Posts: 8
Joined: 12/21/2006
Status: offline

I like some of what I read here, I mean I really like it!
According to one line of thought here, I am partly responsible since I am aware of the risks involved...
Well, if I take it correctly, knowing that I run the risk of having a fatal accident while driving my car would mean that if I actually get slammed into by a reckless, say, truck driver while driving, and die, it is partly my fault because I knew the risks involved beforehand and I should have taken the subway instead!!
Unless of course if I take the subway and there is an accident or an explosion and.....you get the point, I should have stayed at home and never listened to b.s. like this!
For the latter, come to think of it, I do admit full responsibility since not only did I stay and read it, but answered too!

The best thing I 've read in a long time was that "dom/mes should be licenced'.
Indeed! So many ignorant people around....

Ps. This comes from someone who has actually seen the dark side of breath play...
I nearly passed out but my dom was quick to release me before something irreversibly serious happened...do I want to do it again? probably not...it's scary you know to see how easy it is to actually lose consciousness...does he want to do it again? probably not, he lost his color too...even though he knew his stuff and acted fast... I guess he prefers me alive and safe...

About my profile? I dont exist in collarmeland

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Takes more than combat gear to make a man
takes more than a licence for a gun..."

< Message edited by ldmila -- 2/22/2007 7:57:54 AM >

(in reply to MasterC70)

Post #: 30

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/22/2007 8:10:33 AM

jadein

Posts: 37
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline

I normally wouldn't post in a thread like this because breathplay is not something I partake in at all ... it is a very hard limit.   But someone asked if this was just a question of if they knew of it actually happening.

My very first introduction to BDSM was when I was 16 through my voice teacher. She was a submissive to her Dominant husband. I was very close with her and because I had voice lessons twice a week spent a lot of time at her home. She was always very professional and didn't come out to me about being submissive untill I started asking her questions related to a relationship that I was in at a time ... I'm quite sure she probably saw something in me that she wanted me to be aware of because this woman acted as a motherly type to me at times when my mother was no where to be found.   Anyways, she died when I was 17 during a scene. I don't know the exact details of it all but I know she had some sort of noose around her neck. They did have saftey releases in place from what I was told by her best friend and fellow submissive. I'm not sure what or if any other saftey measures they had in place. A week later her husband killed himself.

Because of this incident I never ventured into the lifestyle and in fact avoided it like the plague for many years after.   Now that I'm older and know a lot more I understand that thier story isn't the norm and just very tragick and sad.

Anyway ... I know I didn't answer any question really ...

(in reply to ldmila)

Post #: 31

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/22/2007 10:03:45 AM

sadomasokisti

Posts: 221
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Iceland
Status: offline

Take two in trying to reply to this thread.

In my opinion it would depend on few factors regarding to the scene.

a) Was it intentionally and consensual done by both participants and the safety monitor or paramedics were ready at hand.
b) Could the situation easily been avoided by some actions of the dom... the question of negligence arises?
c) Did the "death" happen in a play that was routinely played by the couple, something that they have done many times before without any serious incident?

In the case of a) I would call them a bit of extreme edge players.
In the case of b) I would not say that the Dom was morally guilty of killing the submissive, but I would label him as a dangerous person that you would not want to play with... or anyone else for these matters.
In the case of c) I would probably judge it as a freak accident.

_____________________________

Pain is good. Extreme pain is extremely good

(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)

Post #: 32

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/22/2007 10:12:13 AM

canupleaseme

Posts: 775
Joined: 7/9/2006
Status: offline

See this is why I am so careful with breath play maybe even too careful!! But i would feel absolutely terrible if i did it to the extend he needed reviving by paramedics if he suvived or not.
Im sure most people would feel some guilt ? I dont know im not close with my edge playing yet

_____________________________

Proud mistress

(in reply to sadomasokisti)

Post #: 33

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/22/2007 10:53:00 AM

Devilslilsister

Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline

Damn Jadein, thats rough. Poor Dominant guy. Nothing like causing the death of some one in your care. Ouch.

_____________________________

My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

(in reply to jadein)

Post #: 34

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/22/2007 10:54:29 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

Yep, some days you can't make a fuckin dime--------------------

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Devilslilsister)

Post #: 35

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/22/2007 2:48:41 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDiscipliner69

So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breath play or noose play and the submissive "died" but was rescitated by a safety monitor or paramedic would the dominant be morally guilty of killing the submissive?
Ross

If she survived, then no...he is not legally guilty of killing her. Given the way of the law, I am quite sure that there would be charges filed and most likely, he would be found legally guilty of some sort of crime.

But you asked about moral guilt. I cannot speak for anyone else, even a hypothetical dominant, in a situation where I don't have all the facts. Is he a hedonist? Is he narcissistic? Is he a sociopath? Is he a psychopath? Does his moral philosophy rule out the premise of guilt in such a manner that he feels none, no matter what consequences his actions have resulted in? Without knowing any of this about him, I can't say whether or not he would (your word) or even whether or not he should (my word) feel guilty.

I can speak only for myself in this situation. I would feel guilty, even with the submissive being revived and brought back to life as noted in your example. There are "oops" and then, there are big...fucking....
!!!***OOPS***!!!

(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)

Post #: 36

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/22/2007 4:28:33 PM

orfunboi

Posts: 1223
Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KeirasSecret

quote:

My vote goes to as presented this would by no means be murder but manslaughter

Doesn't the person have to die for it to be manslaughter?

Be well,

Ya know, i have been reading the responces and thinking the same thing. After all it did say in the OP "but was rescitated by a safety monitor or paramedic". i am amazed how many people are just ignoring that part.

(in reply to KeirasSecret)

Post #: 37

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/22/2007 4:39:43 PM

Evanesce

Posts: 2325
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breath play or noose play and the submissive "died" but was rescitated by a safety monitor or paramedic would the dominant be morally guilty of killing the submissive?

If the submissive is resuscitated, they're not dead. They have not been "killed." However, I would imagine the dominant would think twice about doing breath play again.

The bottom line is there is no "safe" way to do breath play. The best we can all do is educate ourselves on how to try to make it "less" risky, but it will always be fact that people can and do die from this type of play. The Kaptin and I still play this way, and probably always will. But we've attended the most informative presentation on breath play I think anyone will ever find - twice - and we know the risks.

_____________________________

Denise

Give a slave what he truly needs, and he will do what you want.

"There's never a hero in a battle of ego." - Big & Rich

(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)

Post #: 38

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 3/17/2007 1:17:03 AM

SirDiscipliner69

Posts: 2607
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterC70

I think it would be better to avoid the actual incident by not using breathe play with anyone. Anyone can have a heart attack during sex and die, but such a death is accepted by most people as something not to be brought to trial because there was no perceived intent to harm the other person. It was just an accident, usually due to an unknown medical condition. Doing something that deliberatly blocks the ability of someone to breathe at all I would think would go a long way to show intent to cause harm.

The fact that things do happen beyond the scope of the intended is an unfortunate reality. It is best if possible that a situation be in plan if something does go wrong health wise with both parties. A dom as you pointed out could have a heart attack leaving the submissive in a situation of harm not intended.

Leaving the room with a submissive bound for short periods of time might be risky if a fire broke out.

Yes you could what if this to death...the main idea is to think out all possibilities and weigh the concequences with intelligent responsibility.

The number one concern is the submissive's safety.

Example:
Houdini (the magician) died from appenicitis as a result of being hit by a young man who wanted to test Houdini's ability to take a punch. The young man didn't intend to harm Houdini. He didn't know that Houdini's appendix was close to bursting, and that he would do so with his punch. As he didn't know that Houdini would be harmed by the punch, he isn't morally responsible and I don't think he was found to be legally responsible either. If he had taken an iron bar and hit Houdini on the head though, then he would have been both morally and legally responsible for killing Houdini.

Yes I remember something like this from reading all I could as a child on Houdini. Given the context of how it happened it was taken on as part of the act and promo that Harry perpetuated and lived for.

Chris Angel seems to be doing a very good job of the same currently.

Likewise many Doms/Domme's/Master's/Mistresses likely use gags of some sort on their subs/slaves during play but they do leave the sub/slave with a way to breathe normally. They don't intend to cause grave or permament harm to the sub/slave during play. It's when you block off all the ways for a slave to breathe (nose and mouth) that you cross the line into "the intent to cause harm." At least that's my own opinion about it. I'm not a lawyer, but I would think they would have to prove intent at the very least.

I wonder how many might cite such court trials for reference here?

Ross
©º°¨¨°º©

(in reply to MasterC70)

Post #: 39

RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 3/17/2007 1:40:56 AM

WhiplashSmile

Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline

If you are aware and know the risks doing what you are doing
and somebody dies, Yes you are Morally Responsible.

Anytime I have ever done breath play with anybody,
I have been very careful. I also treat it in regards to
how long they can hold their breath. Like swimming
underwater in a swimming pool or something. Very
careful, and got to know how long they could hold
thier own breath.

This is not something I jump straight into, sort of ease
into sanely. Restricting breath here and there for a few
seconds, repeating for a little longer.

Personally, I'm the type to fuck around with their
breathing verses keeping the air shut off for great
prolong period of time.

Other things to consider is the level of physical activity
going on.

< Message edited by WhiplashSmile -- 3/17/2007 1:46:54 AM >

(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)

Post #: 40

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