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RE: Bridging the Gap - 3/15/2005 6:24:18 AM

mistoferin

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quote:

for example, my family is my primary relationship, and while what I do behind closed doors is none of their business, what comes out publically about me may compromised them morally and socially, and to the extent possible, I'd like to try to avoid that.

BlkTallFullfig,
Thank you very much for your responses! I think that you are certainly not in the minority when you say that you have commitments outside of this that you wish to keep entirely seperate. I think that a great many of us also feel the same way. My family and my children are examples of that also in my own life. For others it may be their employment, their church, social groups.......

quote:

One of the ways I would suggest getting to know someone is by watching his contributions on more than one matter, asking them questions on different subject matter, and generally feeling out his way of thinking before judging or replying to him because oftentimes words come out the wrong way, or people see one post and assume "this person is a narrow minded judgemental jerk", while this person is joking this particular time, so watching a pattern is the best way to understand where one is coming from.
Another way, is by retaining an open mind, and suggesting gently another perspective, without cutting the person down and making him feel less able to contribute simply because he is new to the boards or lifestyle.

Fantastic! This is exactly what I was looking for, concrete suggestions. I have seen many instances at our local munches/parties where someone who is new is not given the time of day by some. There are those who feel that one has to "prove" themselves before they will give them real advice. I have always wondered how one is supposed to do that if they are not given the time or the guidance they seek. Luckily, within our local group we have a couple of Dominants who are very good with the new folks as they remain open and just have a knack for making people feel welcome.

On a personal level, your words are inspiring to me as I must admit that I have been guilty at times of not putting in the effort to really get to know where someone stands. I could make lots of excuses as to why...such as being just too busy...but the reality is that those would be just excuses. It is hard to look at oneself and see something about your character that you don't necessarily like, but it is through such introspection that we grow. I know that I will be making a concious effort to be a little more flexible in my thinking for the reality is that I do have a great hunger for the perspectives of the new, and I am cheating myself out of opportunities to hear it if my mind remains so set. Thank you for the pointers.

quote:

it also rubs us the wrong way when people who do not know us, our hearts/intents or desires judge us based on lack of experience calling us condescending names and question our every thought/word/deed. So sometimes as a defense mechanism, some newbies take a strong/arrogant stance, which while foolish, protects the ego for that little while.

When I was in high school, I had a teacher who once told me that it is more effective to "Attack the problem...not the personality". That was one of the best pieces of advice I ever got. When an interaction breaks down to the point that someone begins to attack the personality of another, whether it be by name calling or what have you, that is generally where progress on the issue stops. I have seen much evidence of this in face to face interactions as well as on these boards here of late. I think that it is something that would serve us well to keep in mind. Generally the reaction to such an attack is exactly as you stated....a strong/arrogant stance...that is not conducive to meaningful interaction.

Thank you....good stuff!

*edited because I really can't type!

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 3/15/2005 6:27:22 AM >

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RE: Bridging the Gap - 3/15/2005 6:36:54 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

And that is exactly the point he was trying to make.

Funny how well that works sometimes...*smile*...thank you for noticing.

quote:

You say he has said nothing of value because it isn't what you wanted to hear, but then as he noted, you really aren't listening anyway.

Seems like it was indeed about the last word...

Taggard

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RE: Bridging the Gap - 3/15/2005 11:12:52 AM

BlkTallFullfig

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
It's a simple answer really, stop judging people as a group, stop being afraid of differences, stop judging difference as "wrong."

Agreed, and I do my best, somedays successfully, some days not.
I hope putting it into effect is not impossible, but a simple matter of remembering "I promised I'd be open to differences, I honor my words." M

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RE: Bridging the Gap - 3/15/2005 11:23:43 AM

BlkTallFullfig

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I have seen many instances at our local munches/parties where someone who is new is not given the time of day by some. There are those who feel that one has to "prove" themselves before they will give them real advice.

Yes, I don't know how one's reallness could ever be proven, if one's not given a chance.
I'm hoping to attend a munch within the next couple of weeks, and timid as I am about this, if I get the cold shoulder from 90% chances are pretty good I'll not attend again (at least that particular venue), so we'll see.

quote:

I must admit that I have been guilty at times of not putting in the effort to really get to know where someone stands.

I think we're all guilty of that sometimes; we actually feel it's easier not to get to know the other person and his issues, because lord knows we have our own to deal with, and there's also the risk of rejection of us as a person, or of our personality, or our way of thinking.

quote:

Thank you....good stuff!

Thank you, I really do like the intent of this thread. M

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RE: Bridging the Gap - 3/15/2005 11:59:10 AM

onceburned

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
In going over recent threads I see that there is a very real division between “old school” and “new school”.

Okay... I accept your observation, but must admit that as a clueless newbie I missed those particular conflicts (of course, there have been other drama to distract my attention). But I am eager to learn from this discusssion. Does this difference have to do with definitions?

quote:

Where I have an issue is with some “new schoolers”, and I am not implying that all are like this, that come into this with an attitude of knowing it all. They read some websites, a book or two, talked online to a few Doms….maybe even gotten into a few good scenes.

Know-it-alls are a plague and curse upon all segments of socieity. Are they really worse among the New School crowd? (I should say that I don't identify with either School). I could see how it might happen if Old School was more structured and had people in recognized positions of authority who could be consulted or could offer direction - instead of leaving each individual on their own effort to learn and weigh opinions.

quote:

I have personally had quite a number of instances where a new submissive or slave has told me that the way I do things are wrong because she read on Castle Realm….or her online Dom said…without even considering the fact that I just might be a bit farther along on this journey than she.

Ah, but fundamentalists are found in all segments of society. It is a human mindset - I do not know why New School would be any more immune to that attitude. But it does sound as if you are feeling rather frustrated with your encounters.

quote:

When someone new comes out and self professes themselves to be sub/slave/Dominant/Master, with little or no experience, it is hard for us who have been here and paid heavy dues to take. If “sally” declares herself “slave” and expects to be seen on the exact same level as someone like myself who has been here many years, working hard to earn the right to call myself such…..does that invalidate where I have been and what I have gone through to get here? Does it cheapen who I am? I mean I have worked really hard….now you’re telling me that I could get the same level of respect just by a mere declaration of words?

Yes, I can understand your frustration here. I think a similar thing is what has driven many occupations to become professions with certification and licensure. Although I do not think this is a solution you have in mind.

Is there any other option other than to show newcomers the value of tradition? Of convincing them that going through a community validated process is worth the effort? Is this what you are trying to do when you reach out to others?

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RE: Bridging the Gap - 3/15/2005 8:40:14 PM

mistoferin

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quote:

Does this difference have to do with definitions?

Onceburned,
Gosh, I sure hope not! LOL

quote:

Know-it-alls are a plague and curse upon all segments of socieity. Are they really worse among the New School crowd?

No I don't think worse. I think that both sides have their fair share of know-it-alls, just as all other segments of society as you pointed out. I do think that they evoke the same response in others though, and that is counter productive. It only tends to shut down both sides of the interaction.

quote:

I could see how it might happen if Old School was more structured and had people in recognized positions of authority who could be consulted or could offer direction - instead of leaving each individual on their own effort to learn and weigh opinions.

I am not sure if there is rigid structure to be found anywhere anymore, but I know that there are people who are more than willing to offer guidance for those who show an interest in such.

quote:

Is there any other option other than to show newcomers the value of tradition? Of convincing them that going through a community validated process is worth the effort? Is this what you are trying to do when you reach out to others?

What I am trying to do when I reach out is to make someone feel like they have just come home. That is the feeling that I got when I first began and it is the one that I would most wish others to feel. I would love to show them that there is indeed a grace and a beauty in the value of tradition if they choose to incorporate it in their life.

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RE: Bridging the Gap - 3/16/2005 10:06:59 AM

indydomme

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I don't speak often but when I do... :)

I have to agree here, I think it sounds like you aren't paying much attention to what he's trying to say here. Sounds like your so caught up on your own issues you don't realize they are your issues.

I would have to say that I am probably one who would be considered "new-school." I have no problems or conflicts with other people's traditions or practices until they start telling me I'm wrong because I don't participate in their perfect world the way they think I should. I think everyone has to find the path that makes them happy, and accept it. Learn from others, learn what they think, listen to what they have to say, take what you want or what you need to heart and let the rest float by on the breeze. There's no need to get up in arms. People are different, such is life. Change is inevitable, struggle is an option...

Miss Erin

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RE: Bridging the Gap - 3/16/2005 10:14:52 AM

MizSuz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: indydomme

Change is inevitable, struggle is an option...

HA! I usually use the phrase "pain is inevitable, suffering is optional." I can where both would work.

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RE: Bridging the Gap - 3/16/2005 3:16:11 PM

BlkTallFullfig

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quote:

ORIGINAL: indydomme
I have to agree here, I think it sounds like you aren't paying much attention to what he's trying to say here. Sounds like your so caught up on your own issues you don't realize they are your issues.
Miss Erin

I really don't understand why she's being told she has issues (and she may very well, who amongs us can throw the 1st stone for not having any), just because she says there is a devide, and she would like it bridged.

Is their not a divide? Or is it that she is saying there is, and would love it if there were a way for us to connect better within respectful boundaries?
It may be me, but I simply don't see where she is saying "I need more, and so would you newbies come and give it to me"; I see that she is reaching out to make me and other novices feel at ease approaching her or others for help, and I actually find that noble.

I definitely didn't feel like I could speak at all, never mind speak to most people who've been here a long time; in fact, you'll find my initial posts on these boards either ignored, or with some embatled issues in there, because it seemed to me like no one wanted to hear what my new/know-nothing self wanted to say, and no one cared... I'm squeemish, I was intimidated sometimes, but am comfortable enough to disagree without hating myself or the person with whom I'm disagreeing, so I stayed. M

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RE: Bridging the Gap - 3/17/2005 1:06:02 PM

indydomme

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:) Ok, let me try my best to express this, god knows I'm not very good on the fly.

I am not at all saying I don't have my own issues.

I'm simply saying that I have no problem with the "Old Guard." I have no culture clash with them. Surely there are things I don't agree with, and unless someone is personally attacking me, I take it with a grain of salt, and go on.

The divide occurs when people can't accept other peoples differences. Granted, I've not read many of the posts of the lady who started this thread... But it seems like a lot of you guys out here want to pick fights. Not like you want to intelligently debate, I love debate... No, it seems you just want to attack each other. And god knows, it may not even really be on purpose. Some people have no idea how the things they say are going to be perceived by other parties. I find that sweeping generalities are used quite often here, and I don't find them to be any less than fighting words myself, and usually I say as much.

Debate is talking AND listening, and talking MORE about what you HEARD. The first several posts in this thread were entirely one sided, she was talking, but it didn't seem to me like she was doing much listening. That was basically the point I was making. He wasn't attacking her really, just suggesting she try to listen and absorb a little more. I think that the point that the gentleman was trying to make was a valid point, and instead of pushing him about it, calling him on it, asking him questions about it, she goes off on some rant about symantics. He was trying to DEFINE the problem, which is a valid place to start from my point of view. How can you fix a problem when you haven't yet figured out what that problem is? I don't think it's very easy.

So instead of getting constructive posts, about the subject matter-How can we fix a divide between two obviously and fundamentally different schools of thought, we have a pissing match, which this has obviously developed into.

I agree with the original post, that there does seem to be some issue, and that it is worth addressing. There are just more constructive ways of going about it.

That was all I was saying.

Thanks
Miss Erin (Not to be confused with mistoferin)

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RE: Bridging the Gap - 3/17/2005 2:11:41 PM

BlkTallFullfig

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quote:

ORIGINAL: indydomme
I am not at all saying I don't have my own issues.
The divide occurs when people can't accept other peoples differences.

I hope we can all accept one another's differences... I personally give my opinion in agreement or disagreement when there is a public discussion on a public board, and I hope everyone knows that my opinions are simply that; when and if I quote something scientifically based, I'll say that too.

As for intelligent debate, while I won't try to hold a candle, some things are black and white to me, some traditions need to exist for their civilizing influences, and I will say it if that's how I feel about it. No one has to give credibility to a word I say. Just as I say to each his own, unless I know and trust that a good debaters' words/intentions are good for me, there shall be no other Gods before me when it comes to the rules by which I live my life.

quote:

But it seems like a lot of you guys out here want to pick fights. Not like you want to intelligently debate, I love debate

If it were up to me, there would never again be a fight, I'm against violence in any form, but as I've said before about myself If I feel offended, I will tend to want to defend myself, am not like Christ about turning the other cheek.

quote:

Some people have no idea how the things they say are going to be perceived by other parties.

True, and knowing that, I'm not above appologising if/when I've offended.

quote:

Debate is talking AND listening, and talking MORE about what you HEARD. The first several posts in this thread were entirely one sided, she was talking, but it didn't seem to me like she was doing much listening.

That's possible, but the first posts also sounded a little like they were saying "what you say is happening is not really happening; it's you who has these issues, and you want to shove down our throats as Gospel; again I could be wrong, I could have misunderstood them...

quote:

He wasn't attacking her really, just suggesting she try to listen and absorb a little more. I think that the point that the gentleman was trying to make was a valid point, and instead of pushing him about it, calling him on it, asking him questions about it

Good/different way to look at things, I imagine you are a good debater; I look forward to seeing more of your postings.

quote:

I agree with the original post, that there does seem to be some issue, and that it is worth addressing. There are just more constructive ways of going about it.
Miss Erin

Ok kool, we're in agreement there are some issues... Any thoughts on the resolution? M

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RE: Bridging the Gap - 3/18/2005 7:19:09 AM

indydomme

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quote:

If it were up to me, there would never again be a fight, I'm against violence in any form, but as I've said before about myself If I feel offended, I will tend to want to defend myself, am not like Christ about turning the other cheek.

I am not a person who jumps to violence (though I have been known to spank a few male backsides from time to time, if you want to consider that violence). However, I am most definately going to react if I feel like I'm being attacked.

I have no problem being questioned and having different points of view presented to me. But I won't stand being attacked.

quote:

Good/different way to look at things, I imagine you are a good debater; I look forward to seeing more of your postings.

I really appreciate that. I was expecting a very negative response to my post. But it was one of those times I just couldn't keep my mouth shut. I'm a red head. What can I say.

Anyhow, as far as a solution goes. I think the first thing we need to do is wake up, realize that there are different people with different ideas and ideologies in this world, and if you want to get along, you need to learn about each other. Listen to different prospectives. Understand why those who believe differently than you do believe the things they do. And then accept that trying to cram your ideas down their throat, and/or telling them that they are wrong because they don't believe or practice like you do, isn't going to work. It's going to be counter productive. Some people are NEVER GOING TO CHANGE, no matter how much you try to change them.

Hell, I have a journal that talks about my ideas about D/s. I'm very specific, very open, and very articulate. I get a very positive response, whether people agree or disagree with me. My ideas are out there so that people can understand that this is how I feel about it all. I'm not trying to say that my ideas are the be all and end all. I don't cut down other people who do things differently than I do. I just put myself out there. And I invite response, I invite debate.

I think that I am a very open-minded individual. Couple that with my almost obssessive love for justice and equality, and you'll find I'm very good at listening to all of the sides of a story. Unfortunately, I don't know many people who are like that. I'm just weird I guess.

As far as the SPECIFIC issue of old-school vs. not-so-old-school... I have a hard time here. Personally, I feel like the attitude of the lady that started this thread was rather evangelical. Like perhaps she wants to convert the rest of us. Whether or not that is really her intention, it really doesn't matter. She talks about sharing tradition, but the tone doesn't feel like she just wants to expose her traditions, bring them into the light for better understanding. This is where she might be running into issues, personally. Again, if I were her, I'd start a website outlining her practices, or start a journal describing daily activities and her takes on those activities, and this would serve the purpose of exposing her traditions to the rest of us. I don't know that trying to shove it out here in these message boards is really going to work... I think people respond better when you feed them a little bit of info that's going to spark curiosity and make them want to ask questions, make them want to look deeper. No one is going to respond well to something that doesn't interest them...

Ok, enough rambling. I guess my advice then would be, don't generalize, don't put people down, ask specific questions, give specific answers, and LISTEN TO EACH OTHER. That's about it.

Feel Free to expound upon that, at will.

Thanks
Miss Erin

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RE: Bridging the Gap - 3/18/2005 12:52:05 PM

BlkTallFullfig

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quote:

ORIGINAL: indydomme
I think that I am a very open-minded individual. Couple that with my almost obssessive love for justice and equality, and you'll find I'm very good at listening to all of the sides of a story. Unfortunately, I don't know many people who are like that.
Miss Erin

Well, No negative reaction here...
In fact if you are as you describe yourself above, I'll always respect you, even when I disagree vehemently.
I Know what you mean by being possibly weird because of having a love for justice and equality, and that's unfortunate, but hey exceptional individuals must exist so the rest can be at least exposed to good influences.
Welcome to collarme.

M

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