RE: animal homosexuality (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/18/2007 7:03:40 PM)

quote:

i see societies acceptance flowing......


God, I hope you're right!



Devilslilsister -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/18/2007 7:13:06 PM)

it would be about time.  Be about time for a lot of things.  Human nature is human nature and it can be seen through out humans history. 

Many things that are abnormal, are in fact normal.  It'd be about time for society to accept its self.



bludemonn -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/18/2007 8:14:50 PM)

If abnormal is normal how do we know what is normal?!  



luckydog1 -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/18/2007 8:26:43 PM)

I am 100% for gay rights, but do not see the argument that animals do it, so its good as valid.  Animals behave in all sorts of behaviors that humans consider wrong.  Eating their young, raping their daughters, killing the runt, ect.  If the argument that animals do it, so its natural, so its ok was valid we would live in a horrible world. 



Mikal -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/18/2007 8:30:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bludemonn

If abnormal is normal how do we know what is normal?!  

Because it's abnormal, silly! [:D]



Mikal -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/18/2007 8:33:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
Animals ... Eating their young, raping their daughters, killing the runt, ect.  If the argument that animals do it, so its natural, so its ok was valid we would live in a horrible world. 

I was under the impression that people did do these things, and that the world, depending on where you live and how you look at things, is horrible... [8|]  But I do agree with you, using animals to further gay rights is not the best thing - in essence, you (gay persons) are equating yourselves with animals. People slaughter animals. Get my drift?



dcnovice -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/18/2007 8:36:36 PM)

quote:

I am 100% for gay rights, but do not see the argument that animals do it, so its good as valid.  Animals behave in all sorts of behaviors that humans consider wrong.  Eating their young, raping their daughters, killing the runt, ect.  If the argument that animals do it, so its natural, so its ok was valid we would live in a horrible world. 


Point taken, LD, but I think a lot of religious homophobia is rooted in the idea that gays and lesbians are consciously, willfully, choosing same-sex relations in defiance of scriptural norms. Awareness of the prevalence (sp?) of homosexuality may help some folks grasp that a same-sex orientation is not a deliberate choice to be (as conservatives would see it) immoral.



Vendaval -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/18/2007 8:47:15 PM)

Well, it can be really embarrassing when 2 sexually frustrated
male dogs keep trying to hump each other, making an enormous
commotion of whining and howling and carrying on in the
throes of passion.  Somebody give those doggies a bone!  [8D]



Sinergy -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/18/2007 9:37:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Well, it can be really embarrassing when 2 sexually frustrated
male dogs keep trying to hump each other, making an enormous
commotion of whining and howling and carrying on in the
throes of passion.  Somebody give those doggies a bone!  [8D]


2 sexually frustrated male dogs humping each other.

You want somebody to give the dogs a bone.

Seems to me they have the bone-giving thing under control.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy



luckydog1 -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/18/2007 9:43:31 PM)

Mikal you are correct, I should have said a "worse" world.  You are also correct, some people do do those and worse things, but we do not say it is ok.
DC, I utterly reject the religous right's position on this.   I do think the argument (that animals do it so its natural and ok)would tend to drive fence sitters towards the Religous right's position.  And would strengthen a Religous Righters' previously held opinion.
Vendeval, something similar happens when you lock Men in a jail.  That is not really homosexuality, is it?  If those dogs were free to do as they choose, they would most likely go looking for a bitch in heat.  I have never heard of a Gay man claiming that anyone who engages in Prision (or Navy) sex is a  homosexuall.  If it is all the concepts of Gays being smart and artistic are nonsense.



Vendaval -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/19/2007 1:39:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Vendeval, something similar happens when you lock Men in a jail.  That is not really homosexuality, is it?  If those dogs were free to do as they choose, they would most likely go looking for a bitch in heat. 

I think that the two male dogs had caught the scent of a bitch
in heat and were very frustrated. 

I have never heard of a Gay man claiming that anyone who engages in Prision (or Navy) sex is a  homosexuall. 

The current military policy is "Don't ask, don't tell".
Quite a few military people have been asked to resign
because they are gay.

If it is all the concepts of Gays being smart and artistic are nonsense.


I do not understand your last two statements.
Please clarify what you mean.
 
Thank you,
 
Vendaval



luckydog1 -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/19/2007 10:02:40 AM)

Vendeval,   
You have never heard things to effect that Gays are on average "smarter, better dressed, more cultured, artistic, ect?"  Or pro gay statistics claiming higher average education, income, better at child rearing, ect?  If you averaged everyone who engaged in a homosexuall act in prision or in the "navy"(which is a less apt metaphor now because we do not have a draft, but in the past men would be drafted and ordered to go stay on a ship for months at a time with no women), those numbers would go down significantly.  We would find that on average homosexualls are HS dropouts, Violent and unable to consider the consequences oftheir actions.  Does that make more sense? 
No one in the millitary has been kicked out for being gay under current policy, they have been for engaging in homosexual acts ( I am not defending the Policy, just stating it.  Hetros get kicked out or punished for breaking the sex rules also.)

And the dogs were frustrated because they are not free to go chase down the Bitch.  That is not homosexuality.  Homosexuals do not like each other because there are no women available or they can't get a woman so they become "gay", like the dogs in your example.  If the bitch was available they would go for her, not each other.  Dogs are like prisioners in this example, they are not free to seek a mate as they see fit, if they had a woman they would choose hetrosexuall sex.  Homosexuall men are attracted to other men, even when there are women available.



thompsonx -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/19/2007 10:29:20 AM)

Some years ago I took a university level class in victimless crimes (at that time homosexuality was illegal in some states).  In the section on homosexuality it was brought up that animal homosexuality numbered  as a fraction of 1% while male humans came in at about 4% of the general population and female humans came in at about half of that.  These numbers were based on free association and not forced environments which luckydog1 has correctly  pointed out.  It was also pointed out that the only creatures on the planet who consistantly engage in sex for fun and not just for procreation are humans and cetaceans.
thompson



mnottertail -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/19/2007 10:32:43 AM)

So, are you saying that two ants blowing one another are because they are being dommed into forced bi-sexuality by the queen?


Chas. Darwin



nyrisa -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/19/2007 10:49:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1


  Dogs are like prisioners in this example, they are not free to seek a mate as they see fit, if they had a woman they would choose hetrosexuall sex. 



So, if the the dogs had freedom, they'd find a woman and have heterosexual sex? Interesting point, luckydog1. (sorry, could not resist. *grins*)



aSlavesLife -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/19/2007 11:50:38 AM)

I am not so sure about the homosexual dog thing. I have seen male dogs roaming the streets freely that had at least the opportunity to seek out female dogs still trying to mount male dogs, usually unsuccessfully. I've seen similar behavior in goats, bulls, cats, and ducks. A nice percentage of this can be chalked up to asserting dominance, but some of it seems to be preference.

It has yet to be demonstrated that homosexuality is or isn't genetic. The closest relevant data we have is a study indicating that male fetuses exposed to high levels of androgens grow up to be predominantly homosexual. This only relates to male homosexuality, but does indicate that some prebirth chemical process is largely responsible.



dcnovice -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/19/2007 11:57:50 AM)

quote:

It was also pointed out that the only creatures on the planet who consistantly engage in sex for fun and not just for procreation are humans and cetaceans.


Don't some primates seem to do so as well?



thompsonx -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/19/2007 1:47:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

It was also pointed out that the only creatures on the planet who consistantly engage in sex for fun and not just for procreation are humans and cetaceans.


Don't some primates seem to do so as well?


dcnovice:
The key word here is consistantly.  In this context it means consistantly across the specie not consistantly with an individual member of that specie.  When it does occure in primates it is unique in the sense that it is a deviation from the norm.  While it does happen in the natural environment it has been noted most often in animals in captivity.  The numbers are in the low single digit percentages. 
This data is over thirty years old and more recent observations may expand on it.
thompson



Stephann -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/19/2007 1:54:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Some years ago I took a university level class in victimless crimes (at that time homosexuality was illegal in some states).  In the section on homosexuality it was brought up that animal homosexuality numbered  as a fraction of 1% while male humans came in at about 4% of the general population and female humans came in at about half of that.  These numbers were based on free association and not forced environments which luckydog1 has correctly  pointed out.  It was also pointed out that the only creatures on the planet who consistantly engage in sex for fun and not just for procreation are humans and cetaceans.
thompson


I wonder, sometimes, who sits and does studies on the statistics of insects, lizards, and jellyfish homosexual behavior.  Hell, how do you tell a male from a female jellyfish in the first place??

Stephan



aSlavesLife -> RE: animal homosexuality (2/19/2007 2:03:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Don't some primates seem to do so as well?


The thread the OP gave discusses bonobo homosexuality. I have read other articles on this as well, some more credible than others. One less believable article claims that bonobos engage in sex for pleasure as frequently as once every 2 hours. While I would tend to doubt that estimate, most credible papers written on bonobo sexuality does show that they engage in sex for reasons that are obviously not reproductive such as oral sex beteen females, and that they do it more frequently than do humans.

http://home.tiac.net/~cri/1998/bonobo.html

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1589/is_n735/ai_20164884

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sexuality




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