RE: I Have a Dilemma

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Zonk -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/19/2007 10:28:10 PM)
What the hell, I come to a chess tournament and no one is playing checkers!?!!?!?! knocks the board clear across the room

ownedgirlie -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/19/2007 10:41:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonk What the hell, I come to a chess tournament and no one is playing checkers!?!!?!?! knocks the board clear across the room LOL awesome.

SimplyMichael -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/20/2007 1:17:42 AM)
Type A, I am not sure what the heck you are not getting NOBODY IS FORCING ANYONE TO GO Its quite simple, accept the invitation, accept the rules, decline the rules, decline the invitation. It doesn't get any more consensual than that. The people who want to whine "what about me" just piss me off. We did a french maid party once that was a lot of fun, most were happy we did it even if they didn't come. Awhile back a friend threw a "heavy protocol party" where we all worked on the protocol and once we agreed to it, you either played by those rule, didn't go, or were asked to leave. The best one were the "Master Parties" which were invitation only. Women came ready to serve in one of three ways, service only, service and play only, and anything goes. You could tell the difference by which color toga they wore. Very fun parties and VERY much not for everyone. We didn't set kiddie tables to let anyone come who wasn't playing ball, if you want a kiddie table, throw your own party.

MsCfromMelbourne -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/20/2007 2:02:03 AM)
quote: I simply don't understand where these people are coming from. I don't get it. I mean, it's perfectly all right if something is not for you, but why the need to diminish and insult? Insecurity. You mention that this is their first real life group. They (or maybe just the female) is dreading social embarassment. Perhaps they have been pretending to be more experienced or more "real Gorean" than they are (golly gosh, who would tell fibs like that????). Most newcomers worry about getting "protocols" right and being accepted The Goreans I know tend to be very defensive of their own beliefs - asking a Gorean to pretend to be Old Guard is like asking a Catholic to go to synagogue. They also may be troubled how to relate to Femdoms and malesubs. All of this is causing anxiety, which they are masking as bravado. Try asking what is really worrying them/her about the event. Complaining about the dungeon being shut sounds like an excuse not to go to the party. As president you are a leader and as a leader, you need to be emotionally intelligent, ask one of them privately what is really wrong and allay their (unfounded) fears. Try to avoid the temptation to get your "gang" to ostracise these newcomers (as annoying as they are) because they need the social support your group can provide BTW in our town we have high protocol dinners and they are good fun (the subs have a ball in the kitchen and mine must help the majordomo any way they can, including serving any guest) But we also have brunches that are so laid back, you cannot tell who is a Dominant and who is a submissive, much less who the Goreans are.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/20/2007 7:18:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TypeAsub1 LOL... well silly me for thinking that we have an obligation to attempt to make our invited guests comfortable. No, we have an obligation to make GUESTS feel comfortable and not ask for money or presents in the invitation. Just because you're invited doesn't mean we need to make you comfortable by reading and accepting/rejecting said invitation. If someone handed me an invite that said "Party in July, everyone must wear yellow" I might very well say no to that. Is my host at fault for putting the idea of such a distasteful event in front of me and asking me to join others in it? I don't think so.

ravenairsprite -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/20/2007 1:45:40 PM)
First off this sounds like a wonderful idea. Second I would say you need to discuss with them the situation. It may as someone else said just be an insecurity issue OR it may be a control issue. Either way before you make a decision try to find out WHY they are reacting as they are. I don't say acting because we don't really know what's going through their minds. I do think that rescinding the invitation if they do not stop insulting and being disrespectful is definetly something that should be considered but bring it to a vote. That way it's unanimous in the sense that you aren't "the bad guy". Everyone has made the decision that it isn't a good idea for them to attend. That does not however mean cutting them out of your life. You can still be friends with them if they can be understanding about the situation. You aren't doing this to ostracise them or cut them out of the group. So don't feel guilty. You are doing this as a new experience for all of you. A new and hopefully enjoyable one that your group has obviously agreed upon. Around here we have demonstrations then playtime afterwards to experiment with what was just learned in a controlled atmosphere. I guess in a sense you are doing the same thing. Just because I'm curious about all things I'd want to attend and experience it. Servitude is something that comes naturally to me. I'll get a guest a drink. Or I'll refill someones plate if the food is not on the table and it isn't a buffet. In fact I offer to help. It's called consideration for guests. I was raised with it. However when I go to a play party I act in much the same manner without even being required to. I get my fulfillment through making someone else happy. In my mind I don't really understand a sub or slave who has issues with it but my thoughts are not end all be all. They are just my thoughts. As for not fulfilling EVERYONES needs. Well you can't please everyone all the time. You are offerring to let them host the next party. Not much more that a person could ask for in my opinion. Anyway I'm going on and on. My point is not every party has to make concessions for everyone. It doesn't happen in the vanilla world and so it shouldn't have to happen in the BDSM world. If you aren't comfortable tell them to back off. If they can't or won't back off then you have to decide how important their friendship is in your life and in your lifestyle. I don't care if they're Gor or playboy bunnies. Respectfully, Kali PS Gor has nothing to do with this situation. I know Goreans who are obsessed more with the service side then the pain side so.....

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/20/2007 1:51:35 PM)
I'll also add that some people, when they get in the scene, just have a bad attitude and want to find a reason not to be liked and accepted.

Wolf1020 -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/20/2007 2:49:10 PM)
Explain to them that while you would love for them to attend they are by no means obligated to come to the specific event. Different strokes for different folks, and if the stroke don't rock your boat well then sit that one out. Really, its pretty simple. As to the slave asking what is in it for the slaves? A) She has a lot to learn about being a Gorean slave (sorry when I think Gorean I think book, your real life practice might just be different) B) The slave gets the sense of pride in knowing they did a good service to their Master. Being a slave isn't just about being a slut, it is also about service.

SimplySubmissive -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/20/2007 3:02:48 PM)
[:-] quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael The best one were the "Master Parties" which were invitation only. Women came ready to serve in one of three ways, service only, service and play only, and anything goes. You could tell the difference by which color toga they wore. Very fun parties and VERY much not for everyone. We didn't set kiddie tables to let anyone come who wasn't playing ball, if you want a kiddie table, throw your own party. now that sounds like a fun party.. I'm enjoying imagining all the possibilities !!!

Evanesce -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/20/2007 4:30:48 PM)
LA said: quote: If someone handed me an invite that said "Party in July, everyone must wear yellow" I might very well say no to that. Is my host at fault for putting the idea of such a distasteful event in front of me and asking me to join others in it? I don't think so. I don't think so either, and if the event were something I wasn't excited about, I'd graciously bow out and hope the rest of the attendees have a great time. However, it appears the original post has been derailed, because there have been a considerable number of erroneous assumptions made. I think some people - TypeA most especially - are missing the point, and misreading what's really causing the problem for me. The event we are planning is not a "party" at our home. It's not a dinner where we issued invitations to a select group of people. It's a group effort. It's being planned and organized FOR the group, BY the group. We have specifically selected the protocol style for this first event because it is being held in our home, and this is the style in our home. Other events will be held that offer an opportunity to learn other styles. The speaker is coming to give their presentation fully two months in advance of the event. There is a great deal of planning going into this particular event, and it's absolutely essential that EVERYONE be on the same page. It's not a matter of the Kaptin and myself dictating to all. I'm just the enforcer of what has already been determined. The problem lies in the fact that, where the group has made choices and decisions, I'm having to field complaints from one couple that isn't happy with the group's decisions. We have nearly 80 members in the group. No one is going to be interested in every single event we hold, but everyone knows in advance what the rules and guidelines for each event will be, and everyone has the right to attend or not attend as they see fit. I would like to maintain a friendship with this couple. However, I'm very much offended by some of the comments made about the event, and in reference to other group members.

Evanesce -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/20/2007 4:40:57 PM)
quote: All I have to say is why oh why wasn't I invited to the party???? It's not like I could go... it's just the mention I miss. Oooo Kkkk, big, bad Troll. You can come. But you have to be really, really skilled in bell ringing, bad jokes, and Victorian etiquette.

whisperedsighs -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/20/2007 5:11:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TypeAsub1 Allow me to split from the masses here for a moment... *Oh and hey WnW! Nice to see you here. While I do think that in your house you can certainly dictate the kind of party you want to give and what you expect of your guests, I also think that as a host (and even a host who is attempting to share their own personal interests) you do have an obligation to ensure that there is flexibility in those expectations. I think your party would be interesting, however, there isn't a hope in hell that you'd find me serving anyone other than my Dom. I tend to regard my d/s relationships as intensely intimate things... not something for show or public perusal. I do and have attended play parties, but I do not play at those parties - I simply enjoy a few drinks and experience the interest and fun of being around interesting people. Perhaps these guests look forward to the social aspect of your events much as I do at play parties? So they are probably feeling as though they are losing an opportunity to socialize because they are not comfortable engaging in the activities. Would you hold a play party and require everyone to play? While you are focusing on "service" it is none the less a form of d/s dynamic and by requiring your participants to fully participate in that service you are removing the element of consent. Is it possible for to you provide a "non-participatory" option for people? Think about that for a moment? Perhaps there are some rules that they could abide by that wouldn't diminish the environment you are trying to create, while at the same time allowing them the ability to avoid things which they find unpleasant? I have to say that while I think it would be interesting to attend - I would be inclined to refuse the invitation, because I don't care for the whole "maid" thing. I'll negotiate his mortgage. I'll handle human resource issues for his company. I'll even cook and clean on occassion if I'm not working 12 hour days (thank god for Molly Maid)... but that's something I do for him in the privacy of our home and within the intimate context of our relationship. I would not be comfortable in that service role and in that environment. Having said that, I wouldn't assume that it is your responsibility to make it comfortable for me - but if you made an effort to provide an alternative, I would be wholly grateful for your efforts and feel much better about making an effort to find a means of fitting into your environment that allowed you to maintain the theme of your dinner but also afforded me the ability to find a comfort zone within that environment. Perhaps they are just oafs who have no desire to learn and be flexible... but .. before we fully write them off as such, I wonder if you've considered how you might be able to make it a more positive for both them and you? This couple holds many events of different types in their home. Why would they water down an event that is of a specific nature, with a specific intent for creating an environment for an evening just because one couple wants to play in the dungeon? That couple has every right not to attend this specific event, and politely decline, allowing for other opportunities in the near future to attend the events that happen in this couple's home that they would enjoy. Non-consensual??? They have every right not to go.

Evanesce -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/20/2007 7:32:44 PM)
quote: It seems to me that the OP is using this party as a means of living out a personal fantasy and the invited guests aren't playing their fantasy roles properly. [:D] I've been laughing over this comment all night, because if I were trying to live out a personal fantasy, it sure wouldn't involve me working my butt off to serve a bunch of other people! No... if I were trying to live out a personal fantasy, all the servants would be male, 30-something hardbodies wearing boxer briefs and mesh tanks, and catering to MY every whim.

MasterHyde -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/20/2007 9:48:34 PM)
I'm coming in late here. I'm baffled. This is a Gorean couple? And she's upset because the dungeon won't be open? My knowledge of Gorean ways is extremely limited, but I thought they were somewhat in tune with the whole master/slave relationship thing being about more than just kinky sex. Is she just completely turned off by the Victorian theme, or upset that she won't get to play in the dungeon? I can understand her asking "what's in it for me" because a lot of people seem to think that way. I'm just surprised to hear this coming from someone who identifies as a kajira. Is she really just clueless as to the service component of this lifestyle? Maybe the real clue here is that you said your group is the only real life contact she's had with other lifestyle people. It's quite possible that this girl has fashioned all of her personal perceptions from Internet role play and her own self-centered fantasy life. It's possible that her relationship with her "master" is Gorean in name only, and she's really only in it for the kinky sex. It wouldn't be the first time. I put "master" in quotes, because, if this is the case, he's probably not in control of the relationship, and only masters her when she wants him to (ie, when she wants to play naked slavegirl chained up in the dungeon). The only possible response to this girl is "We're doing something different on this night. Everyone else is looking forward to this special occasion, and we'd love to have you be part of it. If you don't want to participate in this event, that's OK. You will still be welcome at our other events." Assuming, of course, that she hasn't made herself unwelcome by now.

TypeAsub1 -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/20/2007 10:17:49 PM)
Why wouldn't it? It seems to be your kink? You're full of contradictions for me. You claim you have a dilemma that you want to solve - but when presented with any number of alternatives, you eschew them all. Including simply inviting them to attend the information session - which isn't part of the dinner at all. You are also treating service like it's nothing - not important.. but it is a D/s activity. Insisting that people engage in your preferred d/s activities can be a shocking thing for people who aren't accustomed to it. It's not a "yellow Tshirt".. it's an intimate, private, act for some. I've repeatedly stated that I don't think you're "obligated" to change your party - what I have stated is that it would be gracious to do so. And it would be. You asked me - would you have an issue getting a drink for your friend if they were over - and yet you BALK at the very notion of serving a meal to this submissive whom you earlier referred to as someone you were in the process of befriending. That strikes me as contradictory. So is this a dilemma that you'd like to find a happy resolution to.. or is it merely a forum whereby you can seek out pats on the back and support for your inflexibility? Honestly.. LOL this cracks me up, because I started out thinking you were right and was just providing an alternative point of view to bring some life into the thread - but in seeing the responses you've provided, I really do think this is ALL about you and not one bit about your friends and guests.. I could certainly be wrong, but that's how it looks now that I have suggested at least 2 alternatives that would have absolutely no effect on the dinner portion of your party. If you don't like these people well enough to try an accommodate them for the briefest of moments that evening - you should just stop inviting them to your gigs... it's kinda meanspirited I think. I was recently reading a book on negotiation. One of the chapters talks about dealing with folks who would "rather be right than reasonable".... you strike me as one of those kinds of people in this situation. That's your perogative, but it's not really going to make peace within your group. You're effectively isolating out that couple and making them feel badly because they aren't comfortable with your style of D/s. If your OK with that - have at it. If, however, you'd like to at least TRY to make it an inclusive environment, I'd think you'd WANT to make some sort of overture that might mitigate the issue. quote: ORIGINAL: Evanesce quote: It seems to me that the OP is using this party as a means of living out a personal fantasy and the invited guests aren't playing their fantasy roles properly. [:D] I've been laughing over this comment all night, because if I were trying to live out a personal fantasy, it sure wouldn't involve me working my butt off to serve a bunch of other people! No... if I were trying to live out a personal fantasy, all the servants would be male, 30-something hardbodies wearing boxer briefs and mesh tanks, and catering to MY every whim.

SimplyMichael -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/21/2007 6:57:01 AM)
TypeA, I am not sure what thread YOU are reading, but the one the rest of us are reading and responding too, we are telling Evenese that she is absolutely right in throwing this party exactly how she has described. YOU seem hell bent on derailing it, no matter what points are posted. The gorians have no leg to stand on. It isn't their house, it isn't their party, they aren't paying for it, they aren't staffing it. If the gorian couple want to throw a temper tantrum because it isn't done their way then good riddance. If they are mature adults then they should be able to accept that the world doesn't evolve around them.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/21/2007 7:25:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TypeAsub1 You are also treating service like it's nothing - not important.. but it is a D/s activity. No it's not. Service is service. Plenty of doms provide service to others. All good people provide service to others IMO. And again, these possible party guests may indeed decide that what this party entails is not right for them....so they need to politely decline the invitation. quote: Insisting that people engage in your preferred d/s activities can be a shocking thing for people who aren't accustomed to it. It's not a "yellow Tshirt".. it's an intimate, private, act for some. I've repeatedly stated that I don't think you're "obligated" to change your party - what I have stated is that it would be gracious to do so. And it would be. It would be gracious...but in this particular case it would defeat the purpose of the event. So, it really isn't a viable option. quote: You asked me - would you have an issue getting a drink for your friend if they were over - and yet you BALK at the very notion of serving a meal to this submissive whom you earlier referred to as someone you were in the process of befriending. That strikes me as contradictory. She didn't say she'd be willing to do ANYTHING for ANYONE- simply that she does provide service to more than two people in life and gave a concise example of how that is so. And again, she's not balking at serving a meal to anyone...the sub is balking at the activities of the evening. As a hostess, she gets to throw whatever party she wants. quote: So is this a dilemma that you'd like to find a happy resolution to.. or is it merely a forum whereby you can seek out pats on the back and support for your inflexibility? LOL yeah, she's as likely to do that as I am. It helps that I have years of correspondence to back up my perspective, but trust me, you're wrong on this one. quote: I have suggested at least 2 alternatives that would have absolutely no effect on the dinner portion of your party. Except that it would defeat the purpose and mood of the evening. As well, guests have some leeway in making special requests- asking for a vegetarian option to be served is reasonable. Asking for the entire theme of the event to be changed is not. quote: If you don't like these people well enough to try an accommodate them for the briefest of moments that evening - you should just stop inviting them to your gigs... it's kinda meanspirited I think. This is the first gig they haven't wanted to attend. You're really making things into extremes- you take an example of giving someone a drink as "willing to serve anyone anything" and you take not being flexible about one event into not willing to accommodate anyone briefly. quote: You're effectively isolating out that couple and making them feel badly because they aren't comfortable with your style of D/s. If your OK with that - have at it. If, however, you'd like to at least TRY to make it an inclusive environment, I'd think you'd WANT to make some sort of overture that might mitigate the issue. No, they are choosing to isolate themselves. I thought the invitation to the even was the overture to make them feel included? I love the entitlement of the world today- anything from answering my random emails to strangers to completely changing my party theme.

mbes -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/21/2007 7:44:44 AM)
I'm confused on one question--- Is this a "my house, my party" event, or a group-sponsored event? If it's the first, then of course the host has not just a right but an obligation to decide the theme, the menu, and everything else (although it's never a bad thing to be accomodating to those one likes well enough to invite into one's home). If it's the latter, then a lot more compromise is in order. The compromising doesn't have to take place within one evening, of course, although there have been suggestions of ways to do that (I loved the "savage at the table" suggestion particularly!). A rotating schedule of different types of events is fine, if it's clear that this is the way the group works. If the group is open to many different types of dynamics, then all should be accomodated, especially once the dues have been paid.

crouchingtigress -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/21/2007 7:57:17 AM)
*hugs Denise cause i missed you* the goreans that i have known have all with out exception taken themselves rather seriously it seems that this is part of the appeal, but what happens with any extremist group from Christians to Muslims is that when you are extreme in your way of life, you tend to be threatened when other folks live their lives differntly....this seems to lead to aggression: the attempt to force some one to change their ways, either passive aggressively, or fully aggressively and all it does is alienate folks into factions, creates us and them mentality and the idea that there is a right or a wrong way to live ones life....very scary stuff. you have been very nice (i have only read page one of this post i dont know if this changes) but it is time to stop trying to be accommodating and be very clear that you dont appreciate their subtle passive aggressive attempts to control your event, and that if it happens again they will be uninvited. they most likely will not be aware that their comments were so hurtful, because to them this is mere role play and a fancy dinner, but they will most likely want to be accepted and to fit in, more then they will want to display their goreantics,so this will be a great learning exp for all.

barefootgal -> RE: I Have a Dilemma (2/21/2007 9:31:07 AM)
I belong to lots of organizations. Some are dues-paying, some are not. But never has there been a group, no matter how good a fit, where every event they had was one I wanted to attend. It is the nature of group membership that sometimes a program will be attractive to you, and sometimes you will say "wouldn't have picked that one myself, but I like the group so I'll go" and sometimes you just stay home. I can only imagine the chaos if every event had to appeal to every person.

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