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On Slavery - 5/18/2004 6:10:50 AM   
Dunimos


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I would like to present for comment the following article writen by Aristotle, someone I happen to admire a great deal. This was written by him concerning slavery and the nature of Dominant and Submisive people.
I am very interested in who else agrees / or perhaps dissagrees with the article.


Thank you
Dunimos



Aristotle:
The Politics---On Slavery, c. 330 BCE
Let us first speak of master and slave, looking to the needs of practical life and also seeking to attain some better theory of their relation than exists at present....Property is a part of the household, and the art of acquiring property is a part of the art of managing the household; for no man can live well, or indeed live at all, unless he be provided with necessaries. And so, in the arrangement of the family, a slave is a living possession, and property a number of such instruments; and the slave is himself an instrument which takes precedence of all other instruments.....The master is only the master of the slave; he does not belong to him, whereas the slave is not only the slave of his master, but wholly belongs to him. Hence we see what is the nature and office of a slave; he who is by nature not his own but another's man, is by nature a slave; and he may be said to be another's man who, being a human being, is also a possession. And a possession may be defined as an instrument of action, separable from the possessor.

But is there any one thus intended by nature to be a slave, and for whom such a condition is expedient and right, or rather is not all slavery a violation of nature? There is no difficulty in answering this question, on grounds both of reason and of fact. For that some should rule and others be ruled is a thing not only necessary, but expedient; from the hour of their birth, some are marked out for subjection, others for rule....Again, the male is by nature superior, and the female inferior; and the one rules, and the other is ruled; this principle, of necessity, extends to all mankind.

Where then there is such a difference as that between soul and body, or between men and animals (as in the case of those whose business is to use their body, and who can do nothing better), the lower sort are by nature slaves, and it is better for them as for all inferiors that they should be under the rule of a master. For he who can be, and therefore is, another's and he who participates in rational principle enough to apprehend, but not to have, such a principle, is a slave by nature. Whereas the lower animals cannot even apprehend a principle; they obey their instincts. And indeed the use made of slaves and of tame animals is not very different; for both with their bodies minister to the needs of life. Nature would like to distinguish between the bodies of freemen and slaves, making the one

strong for servile labor, the other upright, and although useless for such services, useful for political life in the arts both of war and peace. But the opposite often happens---that some have the souls and others have the bodies of free men. And doubtless if men differed from one another in the mere forms of their bodies as much as the statues of the gods do from men, all would acknowledge that the inferior class should be slaves of the superior. It is clear, then, that some men are by nature free, and others slaves, and that for these latter slavery is both expedient and right.

There is a slave or slavery by law as well as by nature. The law of which I speak is a sort of convention---the law by which whatever is taken in war is supposed to belong to the victors. But this right many jurists impeach, as they would an orator who brought forward an unconstitutional measure: they detest the notion that, because one man has the power of doing violence and is superior in brute strength, another shall be his slave and subject. Even among philosophers there is a difference of opinion. The origin of the dispute, and what makes the views invade each other's territory, is as follows: in some sense virtue, when furnished with means, has actually the greatest power of exercising force; and as superior power is only found where there is superior excellence of some kind, power seems to imply virtue, and the dispute to be simply one about justice (for it is due to one party identifying justice with goodwill while the other identifies it with the mere rule of the stronger). If these views are thus set out separately, the other views have no force or plausibility against the view that the superior in virtue ought to rule, or be master.

Others, clinging, as they think, simply to a principle of justice (for law and custom are a sort of justice), assume that slavery in accordance with the custom of war is justified by law, but at the same moment they deny this. For what if the cause of the war be unjust? And again, no one would ever say he is a slave who is unworthy to be a slave. Were this the case, men of the highest rank would be slaves and the children of slaves if they or their parents chance to have been taken captive and sold. Wherefore Hellenes do not like to call Hellenes slaves, but confine the term to barbarians. Yet, in using this language, they really mean the natural slave of whom we spoke at first; for it must be admitted that some are slaves everywhere, others nowhere. The same principle applies to nobility. Hellenes regard themselves as noble everywhere, and not only in their own country, but they deem the barbarians noble only when at home, thereby implying that there are two sorts of nobility and freedom, the one absolute, the other relative.
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RE: On Slavery - 5/18/2004 8:01:41 AM   
schiava


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*smiling, wonderous and a bit awed*
... So someOne got it, even way back then.....
This slave would like to thank You for posting this article, Sir... she is interested too, in hearing what Oothers may have to say upon the subject. Thank You Sir, and best wishes to You.
~schiava

(in reply to Dunimos)
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RE: On Slavery - 5/18/2004 2:40:29 PM   
iwillserveu


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A "natural" slave will try to escape and twist the knife in his master's back the first opportunity he gets. I assume from 330 b.c. to present we may have different theories.

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

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RE: On Slavery - 5/18/2004 4:30:14 PM   
MistressDREAD


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lol you assume iwill that the slaves He speaks of
are non consensual when in fact most whom
served as such during this tiime were those whom
choose to live in such a position. It is only when
a Countrys Ruler or the like was over thrown that
their Countrys slaves became slaves of another
Owner and sum times rebeled however usually
in those times it was a persons Own family whom
went around knifeing each other giggles

on that note Hou n Greetings
Dunimos welcome to collarme
Holds My breath and kneels
under My Fig tree lookin all
google eyed at the Master....
*blink~*blinkblink~~

(in reply to iwillserveu)
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RE: On Slavery - 5/18/2004 5:12:11 PM   
Thanatosian


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From: New Castle, PA
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quote:


Holds My breath and kneels
under My Fig tree lookin all
google eyed at the Master....
*blink~*blinkblink~~


yeah, right

ok, who are you and what have you done to the real Dread????

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An expert is somone who has made all the mistakes there are to be made

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RE: On Slavery - 5/18/2004 5:29:37 PM   
MistressDREAD


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~smiles~ FYI
Thanatosian
I AM a FW Gorean
and Widow actively
looking for Masters
whom agree to a
Poly Living and
consensual slavery.
and well any Master
whom has a admiration
for Aristotle can be
a possible FC in real
life....... I can be sweet
when I wanna be so there!
Its just a Sadistic kind of sweet.
~smiles~ bigger wondering if
HE has face and body hair......

(in reply to Thanatosian)
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RE: On Slavery - 5/19/2004 6:40:02 AM   
Dunimos


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Shiava, thank you for your kind comments and blessings to you and yours as well.

Mistress Dread, thank you as well for your kindness and I appreciate that you have taken a moment to show your gentle submissive side. There is great satisfaction in having a powerful women take her place at my feet.. Thank you.



Folks.. thank you very much for the comments thus far. I wanted to point out a couple things on slavery during those times, keep in mind that the Hellenists did provide rights to their slaves. They could not vote but they were protected from severe abuses and other "crimes" such as rape, and brutality. They often worked in the marketplace for the public, or perhaps for individual owners / families. Of course, slavery took on many forms throughout history, but it would seem that the Greeks had an effective and workable system.

A search in Yahoo provide a pretty good summary of this institution.
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry?id=43970

What I find fascinating is the form it has taken today particularly in the BDSM culture and that is entirely consensual. This is amazing and for a couple reasons. A person can decide to serve as a slave but may at any time discontinue. At no point in the US can a person be legally held against their will to fulfill a contract or some other arrangement.
Something else that I find interesting is the number of people that pursue accumulating properties or slaves yet many of these individuals are not yet masters of their own lives but are in fact submissive or even slaves themselves at least in part due to their dependancies.

What we see here is that Aristotle, one of the greatest men who lived by the way and personal instructor to The greatest man who ever live Alexandros, understood that there is forced enslavement and willing enslavement. Today we have many who have these traits to be ruled. They feel it in their very being, they know the must be ruled. The issue is that there just are too few people who really know how to rule and then even so much the more do not have the resources to rule effectively.


Your thoughts? Ideas?
*truly enjoying this thread...

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
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RE: On Slavery - 5/19/2004 7:21:06 AM   
Thanatosian


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Dread - was just a side of you I had not seen before so I was taken aback - from reading your posts through the various threads and forums here I just did not picture you as someone who would kneel to another - my mistaken presumption

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Apply Usual Caveats Here

An expert is somone who has made all the mistakes there are to be made

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RE: On Slavery - 5/19/2004 7:21:36 AM   
schiava


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Joined: 4/25/2004
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" Today we have many who have these traits to be ruled. They feel it in their very being, they know the must be ruled. The issue is that there just are too few people who really know how to rule and then even so much the more do not have the resources to rule effectively."

Greetings Sir,
Sir, this slave thanks You for Your blessings, returned to her, Sir.
The above quote... hits the nail on the head exactly Sir, on all counts. Yes, there are some who most definitely feel this need to be ruled within their very being.. it is what makes them who and what they are; many have felt this, known this their whole life; this is what has guided them, molded them into who they are, their driving force so to speak. Finding One Who understands this, Who is wise and strong enough to take charge of such people is indeed an issue. This slave was fortunate enough to have found One Who understood this concept, understood her and strong enough to help mold her well beyong what this "driving force" has done. ~she knows this was a rare occurance but it has shown her, helped teach her what it is she needs in Another.
Again, she thanks You for sharing this post, Sir.
Best Wishes,
schiava

(in reply to Dunimos)
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RE: On Slavery - 5/19/2004 9:00:55 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
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Ahhh see that goes to show
that You only seek out half
of the info thats here about
Me on collarme.Thanatosian
I adore Men in ALL forms.
Just because I am a Alpha
Sadist Poly Gorean Nonconformist
Mistress doesnt mean that
I do not have the ability to
stand to the side of a Alpha
Dom. I was blessed to do so
inreal life with Two now passed
for a accumilitive years of 27yr
and 15yrs at the same time so
I choose to stand beside Dominant
Men and Dominate suplicant men
and respect both and Their desired
positions. Oh yes I brought into the
world 5 Dominant Men as well So
Imma Bitch as well... attribute it to
life experiance. I take no crap LOL
I have no problem going against
the grain as a non conformist
and do not exxpect anyone to agree
to what is My realities but that will not
stop Me from stateing them as I know
them and Teaching them and passing
them on. Oh yes I do not care what
people think of Me as long as they give
Me My due respect as a Dominant
This is a Alt.Lifestyle board and I expect
no less and will be the Bitch to get what
I feel I deserve. simple. JMO





Attachment (1)

(in reply to schiava)
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RE: On Slavery - 5/19/2004 3:25:04 PM   
iwillserveu


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Actually, Dread, a bit of history is in order. The slaves Aristotle talked of were non consensual. (Unless we assume those pesky barbarians were begging for Greeks to rape and pillage their towns.
)

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
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RE: On Slavery - 5/19/2004 5:34:47 PM   
inyouagain


Posts: 418
Joined: 1/6/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL Aristotle:
But is there any one thus intended by nature to be a slave, and for whom such a condition is expedient and right, or rather is not all slavery a violation of nature? There is no difficulty in answering this question, on grounds both of reason and of fact. For that some should rule and others be ruled is a thing not only necessary, but expedient; from the hour of their birth, some are marked out for subjection, others for rule....Again, the male is by nature superior, and the female inferior; and the one rules, and the other is ruled; this principle, of necessity, extends to all mankind.

Pardon me folks... but Aristotle and the Greeks don't want no freaks!

The way I read the second paragraph of Aristotle's comments quoted above, is he was not referring to non-consensual slavery at all in this paragraph. Further, he quite vividly states his philosophy regarding the "natural" role of the "superior" male and the "inferior" female, simply based on genders... and states it extends to "all mankind" (and that means worldwide... past, present and future).

Looking at these philosophical words literally, Aristotle defines gender roles across the board. If you believe, accept and adhere to Aristotles philosophies, then the world as we know it today would be totally different:

There would be NO Mistresses or Dommes, ONLY Masters.

All females WOULD "naturally" be slaves to males, by "virtue" of gender.

Financial Domination would NOT exist in real life or in cyberspace.

Real men would NOT be sissy's and wear panties.

Male chastity devices would NOT exist.

CBT would stand for Central "Broad"cast Time.

When ANY male ANYWHERE wants sex, the word NO would not exist.

Females would not be allowed toys like computers, telephones, cars, and money.

Prostitution would NOT be the world's oldest profession.

Equal rights, voting, joint bank accounts, etc, would NOT exist for females.

Commercial use of slave names would not exist (ie. Betty Crocker, Aunt Jamima, Martha Stewart, etc)

NO ships, planes, or trains, etc, would bear feminine names or references of "her" or "she".

There would be NO Queens anywhere, of any kind (even Queens, NY).

There would be NO Madonna's, Brittney Spears', J-lo's, Pamela Anderson's, etc...

ALL females would be bisexual (males would ensure that aspect!)

Marge Oppenhiemer would NOT own the Reds.

Bill Clinton would have gotten a 2-girl blowjob in the Rose Garden (Hillary and Monika).

There would be NO female Gods... or Goddesses.

The Statue of Liberty would be titless and packing male hardware.

The term SEX would simply refer to a female doing her "natural" duty.

PFC Lindsey English would have been on the other end of the leash in the pics.

Think about it... this list would be virtualy endless... on the slight chance that anyone worshipped or made reverent Aristotle's philosophies across the board, and did not just pick and choose of which suited their personal preferences, the world as we know it, would definitely NOT exist... as we do know it today.

How many females have made favorable comments and observations on Aristotle's words above in this thread... and apparently totally overlooked his second paragraph?

Either you love him, or you don't... and hey, I love him... great guy, and smart too!

Who's next... Socrates?

Inyouagain

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RE: On Slavery - 5/19/2004 6:48:11 PM   
MistressDREAD


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I think We were taught from different books iwill there
were both in those times. Inyouagain a woman can be
both naturally Dominant and still take Her place naturally
beside a Dominant Male as a Supieriour and Your
presumptions in My opinion are not totaly right sum Woman
are not naturally slave to Men but by nature Rule under the
Dominant Men around them if They are Dominant and if
they are slave if having a slave belly serve under both.
Think in terms of the Queens and her unics these were
Men whom were castrated and made to serve the Queen
and this is a Woman that most times Dominated and ruled
all with in Her rhelm but still Sat Under Her King and slaves
serve both.I am Female and did not overlook anything written.
You take the stand that a Woman whom is Dominant cannot
be so and be Equal to a Dominant Man and still be in natural
order of Masculin to Femine and I disagree totally this Thought
Of course Me being a Woman and You not I can know this to be
a fact. hmmm Socrates.JMO

(in reply to inyouagain)
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RE: On Slavery - 5/19/2004 8:09:26 PM   
inyouagain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD

(snipped)... Inyouagain a woman can be
both naturally Dominant and still take Her place naturally
beside a Dominant Male as a Supieriour and Your
presumptions in My opinion are not totaly right sum Woman
are not naturally slave to Men but by nature Rule under the
Dominant Men around them ...(snipped)


NOT according to what Aristotle wrote above, in 330 BCE.

Strictly according to Aristotle's words and comments, a female is "inferior" period... and therefore "ruled" by the "superior" male.

In his philosophy, females did NOT rule period... they were ruled. That is something that certainly appears to have been and is still not being seen. Aristotle's words are there... NO other way to interpret him as saying it's OK for a female to even be a Queen, whether she serves under a King or not... she would never "rule" anybody, let alone be a Dominant female.

Aristotle's philosophy would regard "Dominant female" as an oxymoron. He definitely did NOT say the presence or involuntary removal of testicles (enuchs) was the determining factor for a woman to be "superior" an any way... even to a enuch who is still a "superior" male.

Actually, enuchs were not a product of royal courts, but a product of North Africa and the Arabia's. De-nutification was intended to keep the Sultan's harem chaste until the Sultan decided it was nookie time. Enuchs were often political enemies, or captured foes of the Sultan, so in a way it was poetic justice... you can look at but you can't enjoy any of the Sultan's pussy.

Bedouins have inhabited the deserts of North Africa much longer than Royalty has sat atop any throne in any monarchy. Monarchies are based on bloodline, and not gender... and Royal males are Princes in line for the King's throne. While in the same token, Royal females are Princesses, who usually never see a Queen's throne because of the incestual aspects of screwing their cousins and brothers.

Per your example of an "inferior" female serving as a King's Queen, and being "superior" to her royal court "superior" males... as long as she serves UNDER a King... what happens when she poisons the King, or has a Knight kill him in a Joust, or lo and behold the King dies in battle? Per your example, the Queen would have to immediately replace the deceased King, in order to serve a King.

Count up the Henry's and count up the Elizabeth's... too many Queens sat on English thrones without serving under a King, so evidently they didn't read anything in paragraph two of Aristotle's words that fit's your interpretation... and a few Queens were quite happy to be Queens without a King over them who they served.

Actually, I specified that a strict and reverent belief in Aristotle's philosophy would have made significant impact on females, and gave quite a few examples as to how the world as we know it would be different. In our world as we know it, a female can be Dominant... but that possibility DID NOT exist in Aristotle's quoted philosophy. Show me where he stated this provision... I don't see it at all.

Of course this is exactly the type of situation and instance in which our world females, especially those who are Dominant will take exception to my words, and try to insert provisions into Aristotle's words... to justify their existences, Aristotle or no Aristotle. My point was if the world followed Aristotle's published philosophy, no female would even have a contrary existence to justify... it would have never existed to begin with.

IMHO, Aristotle was a cool dude, a pragmatic thinker with a "perfect" philosophy.

(erects my FLAK/Flame shield)

Inyouagain

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RE: On Slavery - 5/19/2004 11:39:21 PM   
MistressDREAD


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Your point is heard and marked but I to have Mine
which differs and every one reads into things differntly
and what I read there and what You read there are two
different things that is all. I stand at what I beleive. oh
yea and the eunics I was speaking of were male that had
been cut not woman with pussys LOL. JMO

(in reply to inyouagain)
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RE: On Slavery - 5/20/2004 12:34:32 AM   
inyouagain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD
ohyea and the eunics I was speaking of were male that had
been cut not woman with pussys LOL. JMO


Kinda like my term "De-nutification" that I used. I never stated a enuch was a woman with a pussy... and I even stated enuchs were still "superior" males to the "inferior" female Queen in your example... that testicles alone were not the determining factor of gender... a nutless male is still a male.

LOL, how did you read all that and determine I was saying that a enuch was a woman with a pussy??

quote:

ORIGINAL: inyouagain
Enuchs were often political enemies, or captured foes of the Sultan, so in a way it was poetic justice... you can look at but you can't enjoy any of the Sultan's pussy.

What I was saying here is that the enuchs were able to care for and be servants to the Sultan's harem of girl pussy... not that the nutless male enuchs have pussy's... the only pussy they had was the Sultan's harem girls, and in serving them as nutless servants, the enuchs were able to see plenty of the Sultan's harem of girl pussy... and were not able to enjoy ANY of it (a desire to keep their tongues)... but they got to think about, and even observe the Sultan dipping his wick... ie, poetic justice for a former foe or political enemy.

Granted our opinions are bound to differ sooner or later, and I have no problem with that, as that's life, and routine. Let's see what subsequent posts produce as opinion or commentary, and we may even never agree? ...no big deal, just routine life.

However I do want to point out that I was speaking of a hypothetical scenario based on a literal reading of Aristotle's second paragraph... if his second paragraph's philosophy had been adhered to, by all mankind since 330 BCE... yep things today would definitely be WAY totally different.

Aristotle was firstly an excellent philosopher (with an agenda) ... and secondly a good philanderer (with an agenda), who often incorporated both aspects into his philosophies. He did not feel there was equality of sexes, so he may have also been a chauvanist... one of the first, and best....... BUT........ what if he was right???

Inyouagain

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RE: On Slavery - 5/20/2004 12:41:42 AM   
MistressDREAD


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~giggleing~ My head off!!
I do so love getting You
started Inyouagain.......
hahahahahhahahahah

(in reply to inyouagain)
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RE: On Slavery - 5/20/2004 12:46:53 AM   
MistressDREAD


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iwill
unless is a conjunction
like butt or I mean but
~giggles~

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RE: On Slavery - 5/20/2004 4:35:38 AM   
Dunimos


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I can see that some clarification is in order. I have seen a couple comments that are taking Aristotle out of context. So rather than attempting to "strictly" interpret the written word of an English translation of a Greek Philosopher I will follow Aristotle’s line of thinking and apply logic.

On the issue of Dominant women, this is a simple matter of thinking it through. There were at that time slaves, consensual and otherwise, who served families. In these families were certainly women and these women would most certainly be in charge of said slaves. This is well documented throughout many Greek and Roman works. There were some other statements made attacking Aristotle, saying if we followed this philosophy there would be no freedoms that we have today. Again, some research is in order here. If you look into Athens, the birthplace of western democracy, you will find that there were several Greek communities were even slaves had voting rights and participated in community affairs. Also, Greeks during that time would have supported entirely the BDSM community as they held a belief in the self over the state and the pursuit of individual happiness was strongly encouraged. The US adopted this directly from them in our founding moments.

So, the idea that women could not be Dominant is incorrect. The idea that Aristotle would have limited individual choice is false. And that Socrates, well. I’m not even going to go there.

In rereading the article I originally posted, you will see that he is not speaking only of forced slavery but rather mentions that some people are by nature, slaves or submissive to the point were they can only be ruled. He separates the "natural" slave form the "forced" slave or the ones taken by force. He also describes those who are born to slavery but are really free and vice versa.

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RE: On Slavery - 5/20/2004 11:35:30 AM   
January


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quote:

ORIGINAL: inyouagain
Think about <snip> Aristotle's philosophies across the board, and <snip> the world as we know it, would definitely NOT exist... <snip>.

How many females have made favorable comments and observations on Aristotle's words above in this thread... and apparently totally overlooked his second paragraph?

Inyouagain


Stop smirking, inyou. It's not that ironic. Those females who repsonded favorably to the Aristotle quote are Gorean.

Jan

P.S. I just have to ask. I know you're not Gorean. But are you UNIX?

_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]




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