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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:22:46 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia
You realize that most of the amount of money you put into the system you will never, EVER get back.


Actually, you have no way of knowing this, and no evidence to support it. If there is no evidence, it doesn't exist. Sadly this completely ruined all your other points ... it's a question of credibility. You look like someone promoting alarmist rhetoric.

(in reply to ArgoGeorgia)
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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:29:38 PM   
ArgoGeorgia


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Credibility?  You think you build credibility with the statement "They've never missed a payment"?  You really think that all of the money you put into SS from every paycheck for your entire working life you will get back after you retire at the age of 65?  So, you think that putting a fairly significant portion of your wages away for 45  or so years you can then draw it out in 15-20 years at the rate in which they currently pay?  And then let's take into account that people who don't put much into the system (dbg's poor service workers) get the same amount back as someone who puts the maximum amount in?  And this extra money comes from where?  Oh, and let's not also forget the fact that as soon as the actual 'graying of America' due to aging baby boomers happens that fewer and fewer working people will be supporting a growing retirement class.  Both parties have admitted that SS will be at a crisis point in 10 years or so.  This isnt' a partisan issue even. 

But hey, they've never missed a payment.  Sounds perfectly credible to me.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:32:51 PM   
SilverWulf


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Tax the rich more?  As said before, what happens when there are no more 'rich' to tax?

Now, would they just not be rich anymore... no.  Simpler, they would move elsewhere.

In case you are interested, here are some statistics.

The top 1% of the earners in the US pay 35% of the entire tax burden, yet they only earn about 15% of the total wages earned in the US.
The top 5% of earners pay 50% of the entire tax burden.
The entire bottom 50% of the earners pay only 4% of the entire tax burden.

To show the numbers from 1995, per the congressional budget office:

The highest 20% of earners payed 77%
the next 20% of earners payed 16%
the middle 20% of earners payed 8%
the second 20% of earners payed 1%
the lowest 20% of earners payed -2% (yes, negative 2%)

Now, how much do these top earners really make?  Millions? Billions?

In 1995 the average income for the top 20% was $120,000.

So, go ahead and steal more of that money from the top earners since they can afford it and aren't paying their share. </sarcasm>

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:37:04 PM   
Zensee


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In Canada basic health care is a right. There is room for much improvement and delivery is not consistent but no one here has to go bankrupt to get basic care. No one has to choose between their house and a life saving operation. Doomsayers be damned, it can be done and done for less than the USA pours into it's inequitable private system. Any technical problem can be overcome with applied intelligence, regulation and an informed citizenry. It's not mission impossible.

What's the point of having a society if we squander the power of common action? The great behavioural leap of humans is socialisation. We preserve, transmit, share and develope our knowledge and we share the benefits and the liabilities of living. Trouble is the liabilities are absorbed by the poor and middleclass (remember the middle class folks? some of us oldies do) while the benefits are hoarded by an ever diminishing aristocracy.

Disaster can overtake any of us at any time. This "everyone for themselves" attitude is destructive and unnecessary. There really is enough to go around and there is no reason anyone should be left behind.


Z.

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(in reply to ArgoGeorgia)
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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:37:19 PM   
Sternhand4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia
You realize that most of the amount of money you put into the system you will never, EVER get back.


Actually, you have no way of knowing this, and no evidence to support it. If there is no evidence, it doesn't exist. Sadly this completely ruined all your other points ... it's a question of credibility. You look like someone promoting alarmist rhetoric.

Social security is a Ponzi scheme.
http://capmag.com/articlePrint.asp?ID=93

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:39:14 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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I'm talking about taxing the milti-billion dollar corporations, not the ones who make $120,000 a year. They are the ones who either pay slave wages to service workers or eliminate jobs here and move them overseas.

(in reply to SilverWulf)
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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:42:11 PM   
ArgoGeorgia


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Again, defiantbadgirl, there is no such thing as taxing one of the multi-billion dollar corporations.  It's a lie, a myth.  A corporation is a non-entity. You are taxing the stockholders and employees, and in return their cost of business goes up, and the taxes are then passed down to the consumers who purchase the corporations product. 

_____________________________

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:42:38 PM   
Inhibitor


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Vote of general support for the various arguments of sleazy, benji, argo, et al.

I definitely do not think healthcare should be, or is, a "right." Granted, the opinion stems from how people define healthcare in general. Is everyone entitled to emergency treatment? How about anti-depression meds? Reiki? Expeller-pressed body thetan osmosis? Beyond that, I'm quite certain that there is no basic human right to spend pooled money on overpriced things, such as $40k LifeFlight helicopter rescues, etcetera.
Basically, where is the line drawn and who decides? 'Cause as long as people in powersuits sign off on who gets elective surgery gratis and who has to scrounge for change to buy birth meds (as determined by the indexed, numbered, and plastic collated Book of Rules), healthcare is neither a right nor a priviledge. It's the individual result of self-marketing. I don't want to see a completely socialist set-up in the US, but neither do I want to see people die over paperwork. I'll be satisfied when "healthcare" refers to actual healthcare, when the current strain of psychological hypochondria is given an appropriate bitch-slap, and when meds created from materials you could easily scrape off your bathtub and pour out of those bottles under the kitchen sink cost something akin to what they actually cost.

Oh and as an addendum, I'm naive, and I know it, and I like it like that. ;)

(in reply to ArgoGeorgia)
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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:44:22 PM   
caitlyn


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Social Security isn't a retirement account, where you get more, for paying in more. It is a safety net, designed to help ensure that old people of all social classes, don't end up eating dog food. It also ensures that older people, without family to care for the, have a bit of money to pay for at least a minimal skilled nursing facility.
 
The problem you have with the system, is that you don't like it ... not that it doesn't work. Fine, then vote for people that are opposed to the program.
 
I don't expect to get out of it, what I put in ... but, I might live to be one-hundred, and perhaps will. Either way, that has nothing to do with why we pay in, and nothing to do with how the system is run.
 
Crisis point, etc ... this is unproven, which means it doesn't exist. You have no crystal ball, so are only guessing. I have noticed that most politicians that discuss it, do so from the point of view that the other candidate won't fix it, so you should vote for them. 

(in reply to ArgoGeorgia)
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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:45:12 PM   
SilverWulf


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As was already pointed out, corporations do not have any money.  The money is owned by the shareholders and the workers.

So, raise the tax rate (which is already incredibly high) and see what happens.  Your 50 dollar pair of shoes would cost 150.  Someone has to pay for that new tax, and it is whoever buys the goods the corporation provides.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:45:30 PM   
sleazy


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From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I'm talking about taxing the milti-billion dollar corporations, not the ones who make $120,000 a year. They are the ones who either pay slave wages to service workers or eliminate jobs here and move them overseas.


And how are those corporations going to pay the tax bills?

Give you a clue, tax corporations an extra 20% then go check the difference in prices next time you buy a product or service.

The end purchaser is the ONLY taxpayer when it comes down the line on any form of corporate taxation

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(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:45:46 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

In Canada basic health care is a right. There is room for much improvement and delivery is not consistent but no one here has to go bankrupt to get basic care. No one has to choose between their house and a life saving operation. Doomsayers be damned, it can be done and done for less than the USA pours into it's inequitable private system. Any technical problem can be overcome with applied intelligence, regulation and an informed citizenry. It's not mission impossible.

What's the point of having a society if we squander the power of common action? The great behavioural leap of humans is socialisation. We preserve, transmit, share and develope our knowledge and we share the benefits and the liabilities of living. Trouble is the liabilities are absorbed by the poor and middleclass (remember the middle class folks? some of us oldies do) while the benefits are hoarded by an ever diminishing aristocracy.

Disaster can overtake any of us at any time. This "everyone for themselves" attitude is destructive and unnecessary. There really is enough to go around and there is no reason anyone should be left behind.


Z.


I second that!! You make very good points.

(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:46:53 PM   
ArgoGeorgia


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From: Atlanta, Georgia
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http://www.stanford.edu/~wfsharpe/art/fer/fer97.htm
 
"Unlike private pension plans, Social Security is not funded; it is a pay-as-you-go system. The payroll taxes paid by each generation of workers are not invested to cover that generation’s retirement. Instead the taxes are used to pay benefits to workers who have already retired. The young pay the old, and when the young become old, they in turn are paid by the next generation.
Payroll taxes will exceed benefit payments for the next few years. These surpluses will flow to the OASDI (Old Age, Survivors and Disability Insurance) Trust Fund. The Trust Fund is not intended to fund future Social Security liabilities. At its projected peak in about 2020, the Trust Fund will cover less than three years of benefit payments.
The Social Security system faces two serious problems. First, pay-as-you-go will not work in the long run at current tax rates and benefit levels. Projected annual benefits will exceed taxes before 2015, and the Trust Fund will be exhausted by about 2030. Projected annual and cumulative deficits become steadily worse through at least 2075. "



_____________________________

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. No, seriously. They have t-shirts for everything nowadays.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:47:26 PM   
caitlyn


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I don't agree with you at all ... but loved your post anyway.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:50:04 PM   
caitlyn


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I think we all know the mechanics of the system.

(in reply to ArgoGeorgia)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:51:01 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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Joined: 11/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I'm talking about taxing the milti-billion dollar corporations, not the ones who make $120,000 a year. They are the ones who either pay slave wages to service workers or eliminate jobs here and move them overseas.


And how are those corporations going to pay the tax bills?

Give you a clue, tax corporations an extra 20% then go check the difference in prices next time you buy a product or service.

The end purchaser is the ONLY taxpayer when it comes down the line on any form of corporate taxation


Nobody will be able to afford their products before long, no matter how expensive or inexpensive they may be. Every day, more and more jobs that pay enough to live on are being eliminated or off-shored.

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:51:49 PM   
RobertCloud


Posts: 2959
Joined: 6/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia
You realize that most of the amount of money you put into the system you will never, EVER get back.


Actually, you have no way of knowing this, and no evidence to support it. If there is no evidence, it doesn't exist. Sadly this completely ruined all your other points ... it's a question of credibility. You look like someone promoting alarmist rhetoric.


caitlyn

I am a Social Security recipient for disability... Everytime I call into the help center I hear the same message and it always says that what most people do not know is that there is NO social security fund. That the money being paid into Social Security TODAY goes to make the payments to the recipients TODAY, and that at the current rate of increase in the numbers going onto Social Security that the system will not be able to support the need in the years to come.

He is right. The money you have paid in will not be there when you are ready to use it for it is being used now. It is not alarmist rhetoric, but fact that the Social Security Administration tells every person that calls into their centers even now while you are on hold.

Another person made a comment that BASIC HEALTH CARE was already a right. This is not true.
There are many people that need basic medications to survive, without them they will die, and yet the pharmaceutical companies have made these drugs so expensive that someone on a fixed income cannot afford to pay the $400 to thousands of dollars each month for their medications. Well, you are saying, you have Medicare to help... Yes, but Medicare has this new policy that once the combined total expense that you and the insurance company have spent (or actual cost) have reached a certain level then the person has to pay 100% of their cost for the next $3500 dollars. That means in some people's situations that after only a couple of months they must suddenly come up with an additional $750 to a couple of thousand dollars to buy their medications on top of their other expenses before the insurance picks back up. Most cannot afford to do that, some will have to suddenly stop their medications and in some cases, if the person goes to a clinic, samples will not even be available to help spread the cost out, there are many medications that if you suddenly drop them the side effects include seizures, coma, death.
Yet, you cannot go to the hospital for this, all they will do is write a prescription that the patient cannot afford, and the patient will simply wind up dying in pain.
This is a serious problem. So you are saying seek help from Medicaid... That is a joke too, Medicaid won't help most of these people because the maximum that a couple can make and receive Medicaid is well below even the Federal standard for poverty. Most people that receive Social Security Benefits for more than one individual in a household will not qualify for Medicaid.
I have spent three months seeking assistance, and the best chance is still slim, Montel Williams has a plan that may help, but even that is only a slim chance...
So do I feel that there needs to be a National Healthcare Program? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do I think the current plans in force need to be re-examined and changed and set up on a more federally standardized level? Yes!
And I think these plans could easily be funded from current taxes without raising taxes if the current administration would get out of an unpopular war and stop siphoning funds away from the Medicare System as they currently are doing. Also redirecting funds from some of the other things that are non-essential programs toward these more essential programs. A freeze on all raises to all Senators and Congressmen for 4 years with those expected funds going toward Healthcare. All transportation cost for all government officials to be partially the government officials' responsibility instead of fully taxpayers' responsibility. One less secret service agent for each of the higher ranking individuals. And combine some of the redundant bureaus, do we really need an FBI, a CIA, and NSA and a Department of Homeland Security, and I am certain there is one or two more that are redundant in there.
As well as Military... Do we really still need an Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Coast Guard. Why not combine one or two of them and save the funds and put it to better usage.

Okay.. done with my rant as well.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:53:28 PM   
Inhibitor


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I don't agree with you at all ... but loved your post anyway.


Nothing's better than a loving dissenter.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:54:56 PM   
duckfoot


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I believe that's not the correct question. The question as I ponder it is, "Should healthcare be a for-profit industry."

It seems that free markets and good, affordable healthcare systems have some inherent contradictions. I'm not in any way suggesting that the American government is possessed of the efficacy to run a socialized medicine program, mind you.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/1/2007 9:55:57 PM   
Sternhand4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I think we all know the mechanics of the system.

Actually most don't. They have a mental image of an account with their name on it. Oh and few young people know that they ( born after 1960) dont get benefits till their 67 instead of 65 ( at the current plan)

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Profile   Post #: 60
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