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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 3:55:50 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

To add, the US today, and Britain today for that matter, is not like Britain of the 1940s where the country was bankrupt and most people didn't have a pot to piss in. Free universal health care was desperately need then, but not in today's world of comfort. It would only serve to act as a drain on the economy. There is no more money floating about unless someone is prepared to overthrow the government and take control of the direction of resources away from military adventure. The aim should be to provide free social welfare where it is needed, first and foremost.

You have truely attained your position in the middleclass with these views. Britain has more poor and a bigger wealth difference than its neighbours, it spends less on healthcare, yet somehow this is a drain on the economy? Your vision will see the poor get nothing because once you say the poor are a burden, which is what you imply, your middleclass friends will want to pay less and less towards the healthcare of the poor.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 3:57:10 PM

RWAble

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Right. Right. Right. The taxes we pay should go to healthcare, not making oil barons rich in overseas wars.

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Post #: 142

RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 4:03:19 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Thus quite literally millons of pounds are wasted on middle class scrounging and more millions wasted on working class scrounging.
Yes the same thing from both ends of the social spectrum, The Doctor wants but does not need ; gets, but frequently does not use the latest whizz bang diagnostic equipment.
Many patients want sick notes , treatment for "nerves, IVF treatment, ante natal treatment every 5 mines, free condoms, abortions every couple of years...etc etc etc.

Far more social welfare is spent on the middleclass than the poor but the middleclass refuse to accept it. Sick notes don't add to the health bill, they add to the welfare bill.

One of the biggest causes of people being sick in Britain is because companies allocate their middleclass employees a number of days they are allowed to be sick and still get paid. That privelege is not given to manual workers who usually earn an hourly rate. The other thing is the amount of time off through stress the middleclasses claim, which is beyond belief since stress has been turned into a medical isse, yet studies have shown that manual workers are exposed to and suffer far more from work stress because of the uncertainty in the security of their work where middleclass people tend to have jobs with secure contracts.

My oh my. I never really expected NG to join the middleclasses so fast but he has got a degree and he does work for a government or independent agency paid for by the state. Now there is a saving if ever I saw one.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/2/2007 4:07:23 PM >

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Post #: 143

RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 4:05:45 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Meat, you sound pretty happy with your healthcare system there.
"First Rate" is a pretty good accolade.
I'd be in favor of a system like that here in the U.S. but the big insurance cos would fight it tooth and nail I suppose.
Then there's the cost.

Whichever way you jump there are always vested interest groups that are going to kick, scream and cry foul.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 144

RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 4:07:48 PM

calamitysandra

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As another spoiled European I would vote for "Right".

The German healthcare system has major problems, most stemming from bureaucracy and profit grabbing, and it is being patched right, left and middle.
We pay for medical insurance based on what we earn, about 12-13% of our wages. Children and non-working spouses are covered for no fee.
But as many problems as our system has, I do not need to worry what to do if one of my children gets ill. They have regular checkups, a pediatrist will see them on the same day I call in, even if it is just for a cold, and if something serious needs immediate attention, they will get that at a childrens hospital.
All that without putting me in a situation in which I need to decide if the meds or food are more importand.
The same is true for myself. The only difference being, that adults have to pay a 10 Euro copay for the first doctors visit every 4 month, and have a copay for prescriptions, which is not allowed to be more than 8 Euro per perscription, and if you have a chronic condition might not exceed 210 Euro/year. Those copays can be removed if you do not have enough income to pay them.

All in all, we could pay a good deal less, if the system would be managed better, but looking around in the world, I am pretty happy with our way.

< Message edited by calamitysandra -- 3/2/2007 4:09:52 PM >

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Post #: 145

RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 4:11:23 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

To add, the US today, and Britain today for that matter, is not like Britain of the 1940s where the country was bankrupt and most people didn't have a pot to piss in. Free universal health care was desperately need then, but not in today's world of comfort. It would only serve to act as a drain on the economy. There is no more money floating about unless someone is prepared to overthrow the government and take control of the direction of resources away from military adventure. The aim should be to provide free social welfare where it is needed, first and foremost.

You have truely attained your position in the middleclass with these views. Britain has more poor and a bigger wealth difference than its neighbours, it spends less on healthcare, yet somehow this is a drain on the economy? Your vision will see the poor get nothing because once you say the poor are a burden, which is what you imply, your middleclass friends will want to pay less and less towards the healthcare of the poor.

You miss a couple of key pertinent points, too. Have another read.

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(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 146

RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 4:12:01 PM

meatcleaver

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If we were talking about a private company rightwingers would say the extra bureaucracy and profit grabbing feeds the economy because it would all be fed back into tax but because we are talking about a government organisation its a drain.

I've used the German health service and as far as I could tell, it is first rate.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 147

RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 4:13:26 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

To add, the US today, and Britain today for that matter, is not like Britain of the 1940s where the country was bankrupt and most people didn't have a pot to piss in. Free universal health care was desperately need then, but not in today's world of comfort. It would only serve to act as a drain on the economy. There is no more money floating about unless someone is prepared to overthrow the government and take control of the direction of resources away from military adventure. The aim should be to provide free social welfare where it is needed, first and foremost.

You have truely attained your position in the middleclass with these views. Britain has more poor and a bigger wealth difference than its neighbours, it spends less on healthcare, yet somehow this is a drain on the economy? Your vision will see the poor get nothing because once you say the poor are a burden, which is what you imply, your middleclass friends will want to pay less and less towards the healthcare of the poor.

You miss a couple of key pertinent points, too. Have another read.

Apologies.

I'm all for robbing the military and ending military adventures.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 148

RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 4:13:50 PM

calamitysandra

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It is first rate. You get excellent care, the moment you need it.
Now all we have to do is keep it that way.

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(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 149

RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 4:18:49 PM

untamedshysub

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healthcare should be a right not a privelege. Here in the states a 12 yr old boy died recently because he had a tooth that had an infection and it spread to his brain . His mom could not afford to take him to the dentist , so by the time it was all said and done medicad paid over 250k to the hospital and he died because it was too late by the time he got the simple care he needed.

(in reply to calamitysandra)

Post #: 150

RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 4:19:31 PM

sleazy

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Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If we were talking about a private company rightwingers would say the extra bureaucracy and profit grabbing feeds the economy because it would all be fed back into tax but because we are talking about a government organisation its a drain.

Ah, but as a filthy capitalist scum I am well aware that bearaucracy eats at the profit margin, sod the rest of the economy. No unnecessary middle management pen pushers round here I can tell you. One step down from me are the people out in the field and the typing pool, one step up is the company owner, nothing n between, No HR department, no health and safety guru, no diversity affairs department, no community outreach coordinators, just people who work and contribute the to the bottom line of the balance sheet and getting the job done on schedule and on budget.

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Post #: 151

RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 4:26:02 PM

meatcleaver

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It might reduceyour company profits but it feeds someone elses because those useless bloated middle managers have a life style to keep up at some fancy restaurant down near the Angel or wherever is in vogue now.

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Post #: 152

RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 4:26:52 PM

NorthernGent

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Untamed, I think we'll agree on a principle that everyone is entitled to opportunity in terms of health, education, housing etc. I mean, surely a human colony can provide for this. But, why should a bloke who's earning a fortune on the back of society also get his healthcare free on the back of society? This is my argument that those in need should be served first. If the system can bare the weight, then tackle the rest, but it isn't going to happen because of expenditure on "defence" etc. If it was left to me, I'd forget defence, take our chances and spend tax payers money on housing, education etc, but it's wildly unrealistic.

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Post #: 153

RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 4:28:41 PM

ferryman777

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missed a few points??? No, I don't think so. It's all about money' something everyone here seems to be missing; how much can be stolen from the US taxpayer, without offering any benefits. That's it. I know too many people who came here, and upon learning of the US Health care system/non system, are apalled. Oh yeah, you say if they don't like it here, why did they come then; answer...they believed the propaganda of the US, that being the best in the world; and yes, they are going back, fed up with the disillusionment. Wait till this next election...the war has cost too much, how are we going to pay the dept. Raise Taxes, Social Security is in trouble; got to fix it; benefits reduced; up goes taxes, up goes gasoline tipping 5+bucks per; don't forget the terrorists here, Homeland Security needs more money; after all you don't want another 9-11; we must protect our children; the Dem elected, whoever it may be, catches the blame for the economic chaos, forgetting what regime brought us to financial ruin. It is, and has been always, about money. This Iraq war, about humanitarian reasons, terrorists attacking the US freedom, retaliation for 9-11, keeping the homeland safe, bullshit, it's for the oil, and control of it all, thereby controlling all the world....whoever owns the spice, controls the universe......I really do not accept the notion, that governments actually care about it's subjects...er, citizens. Those that did, are maligned now. Health care system benefits...is a non-producing enity; it spends money on a depleting product (humans); the only benefit is to the drug manufactures and the tech labs, insurances etc;. The problem is...Social Security is the greatest system ever constructed; health care can be factored into the system...and therein presents the problem.....how can we maintain the system, and NOT have to payout any benefits; therein is the problem. The gov. collects, and has to pay for the dept, so there cannot be any payment for benefits. They collect, we pay, and get nothing, ...now how can we do that.
Why don't the Brits adopt the US system ? Why not Sweden ? The French gov. is attempting to, but those stupid Frenchies are objecting alot. To fix everything, why doesn't the US adopt the Chinese system.....oh, I almost forgot, we have WAlmart.
I really cannot believe I am reading this stuff from you guys.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 154

RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 4:32:54 PM

untamedshysub

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will never happen. Those who truly need dont receive because its all about the dollar.
Its the golden rule. He who has the gold makes the rules.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 155

RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 4:36:59 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ferryman777

Why don't the Brits adopt the US system ? Why not Sweden ? The French gov. is attempting to, but those stupid Frenchies are objecting alot. To fix everything, why doesn't the US adopt the Chinese system.....oh, I almost forgot, we have WAlmart.
I really cannot believe I am reading this stuff from you guys.

The French system needs some reform but the French government is far from advocating the American system, they aren't even advocating going as far as the British system!

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 156

RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 4:39:31 PM

untamedshysub

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what I never understood about social security until I did some research was that they can spend the money. Since Social Security unilike Federal income tax is based on every penny you earn there should be more than enough money for the boomers to retire but congress has the right to spend the surplus and that is why there is no money there. That is not right that money should not have been touched and put in an account and Social Security would have been fine.

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Post #: 157

RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 4:40:11 PM

NorthernGent

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Hey, you're mistaking me for a conservative. It's like this in my world:

1). I don't give a fuck about defence, propaganda, phoney wars, military adventures, climate of fear, "islamo-fascists" (no one has told us who these people are, by the way) and all the rest of it. Left to me, we'll take our chances and direct the money elsewhere.

2) I want to see a society which is fair and creates opportunity for everyone to compete and that means providing the basic tenets for human existence i.e. health, education, housing etc.

3) I'm a realist which means it ain't going to happen. Britain is a conservative nation at heart and I'm guessing the US is even more conservative. Hence the argument, let's take the taxes we can raise and direct it to the most needy areas because, as conservative nations, there will never be enough to go around.

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to ferryman777)

Post #: 158

RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 4:52:09 PM

sleazy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

It might reduceyour company profits but it feeds someone elses because those useless bloated middle managers have a life style to keep up at some fancy restaurant down near the Angel or wherever is in vogue now.

I think you mis-read me me Meat;

No middle managment in my company equals increased profits through reduced overheads. 1 efficient upper manager with a small efficient "peon" staff can achieve far more than any number of memo sending administrators intent on empire building with a staff of hundreds.

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Post #: 159

RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 7:44:33 PM

Archer

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Charity is not the purpose of Government. And providing "free" healthcare is charity.
Given the opportunity the US citizens are generally a very generous group of people. Given back their tax money a very large percentage of them would freely give to clinics that would meet the needs of those who cannot afford.

Life simply isn't a fair issue, if it was we'd all be born to middle class parents and get the same education and the accidents of birth would be eliminated. But that isn't the way reality works.

Define Fair BTW. Because I have never had a realistic definition given for social "fairness". That didn't somehow penalize folks who worked hardand made good decissions more than those who made poor decissions or worked just enough to get by.

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Post #: 160

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