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RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/14/2007 2:54:43 PM

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"Military investigators found several witnesses who said they heard Colonel Michael Steele tell his troops to "kill all military-aged males" in the assault on a suspected insurgent base on an island in the Tigris River north of Baghdad."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/usiraqmilitaryjustice;_ylt=AjJ_kCgO1FMssf1eWMMLOKcDW7oF

I remember when the Serbs did this sort of shit.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/14/2007 2:56:33 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/14/2007 3:00:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"Military investigators found several witnesses who said they heard Colonel Michael Steele tell his troops to "kill all military-aged males" in the assault on a suspected insurgent base on an island in the Tigris River north of Baghdad."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/usiraqmilitaryjustice;_ylt=AjJ_kCgO1FMssf1eWMMLOKcDW7oF

I remember when the Serbs did this sort of shit.

I was once asked how the United States could have won the Vietnam War.

I pointed out that killing everybody in that country would have worked.

I did mention that I had personal issues, as well as many people in the United States, seemed to think this sort of behavior was not really something a modern and civilized nation should do.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/14/2007 3:05:56 PM

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Constitutional Republics simply CANNOT sustain the level of barbarity needed to impose order in an environment like that.

( That's why we needed a Client Army. The Republican Guard would have worked really well. )

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/14/2007 3:07:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

PREPARING???

So, when the Rooskies PREPARED for nuclear war, we could have struck first?

Of course we could have. And think of all those millions and millions who perished in Soviet gulags who might have been saved, too.
Being aware of your dislike of the net as a source of information could you give us some sort of cite for the millions and millions who perished or is this a number you have plucked from some place that the sun does not shine.

All the people who died when the USSR attacked Afghanistan,
I thought it was the russians who got their collective butts spanked there.

all the Eastern Europeans who perished trying to reach freedom... all the Cubans who are still prisoners on their own island...
Cubans do not seem to have any trouble leaving their island...witness the Gonzalez kids momma was making her third or fourth round trip to visit her boyfriend.
You are aware that there are U.S. citizens who are not allowed to leave the country. I believe it is next year that we will all need a passport to go to Canada, Mexico, The Bahamas...to leave the country at all. If you are denied a passport how can you leave the country legally?

And with the memories of what had happened after we allowed Hitler to prepare for war fresh in everyones' minds, not that many would have objected back then, either. In fact, it's almost curious that we didn't. I think that the USA is so meek and so nice and so gentle that there's never been a superpower who's spent this much time examining its own belly button rather than acting in its own self-interest in the history of the planet.
How about you tell us all about how the meek and belly button examining U.S. has either started or insinuated itself into every war we have been involved in. Who has attacked us first?

Think of the money too, that was wasted in the arms race... had we acted more rationally and smited them before it got started, the planet could have been a much nicer place, though all the technology developed in the arms race would never have been found until much later than it was.
Convince me that having more war toys is a good thing. Unless your national purpose is to be the king of the world.

quote:

By extension, when the US PREPARED for war against Iraq by stationing 40,000 troops on her borders, Iraq could have struck first, and been justified?

Of course they could have, and I am sure that our forces were watching for it, too. Would they have been justified? That would all depend on your perspective. You know it's coming, what are you going to do. Saddam could have just surrendered, but apparently he thought he had enough WMDs to kick our ass. Why else did he choose the path he did?
I am always curious about the motives of warmongers who do not have the courage to wear a uniform.
thompson

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/14/2007 3:14:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Saddam could have just surrendered, but apparently he thought he had enough WMDs to kick our ass. Why else did he choose the path he did?

My own personal opinion is that he "misunderstimated" the idiocy and insanity of Monkeyboy and the vicious ruthlessness of Shotgun.

Probably thought that Mr. Dictator et al would bow to worldwide opinion and not invade since it would destroy any good relations with anybody else on the planet.

Sucks when you underestimate other people's stupidity and insanity.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/14/2007 6:34:09 PM

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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Being aware of your dislike of the net as a source of information could you give us some sort of cite for the millions and millions who perished or is this a number you have plucked from some place that the sun does not shine.

It's not that I dislike the Internet as a source for information, thompson - what I ask for (that you can never provide) are reliable sources. When you ask me I can always say, "Here you go." In this case, the estimates are fifty million.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2007-02,GGLG:en&q=gulags+soviet

quote:

All the people who died when the USSR attacked Afghanistan,
I thought it was the russians who got their collective butts spanked there.

My point was that all the people who died in Afghanistan, etc., wouldn't have, had we stopped Russia in the early days of the cold war.

quote:

all the Eastern Europeans who perished trying to reach freedom... all the Cubans who are still prisoners on their own island...
Cubans do not seem to have any trouble leaving their island...witness the Gonzalez kids momma was making her third or fourth round trip to visit her boyfriend.
You are aware that there are U.S. citizens who are not allowed to leave the country. I believe it is next year that we will all need a passport to go to Canada, Mexico, The Bahamas...to leave the country at all. If you are denied a passport how can you leave the country legally?

You're really comparing the USA, which people die trying to get into, with Eastern Europe under the USSR and Cuba where people were shot if they tried escaping???

Hmm. I guess I can't argue with that kind of logic, can I...

quote:

And with the memories of what had happened after we allowed Hitler to prepare for war fresh in everyones' minds, not that many would have objected back then, either. In fact, it's almost curious that we didn't. I think that the USA is so meek and so nice and so gentle that there's never been a superpower who's spent this much time examining its own belly button rather than acting in its own self-interest in the history of the planet.
How about you tell us all about how the meek and belly button examining U.S. has either started or insinuated itself into every war we have been involved in. Who has attacked us first?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe just the 9/11 terrorists, for starters?

quote:

Think of the money too, that was wasted in the arms race... had we acted more rationally and smited them before it got started, the planet could have been a much nicer place, though all the technology developed in the arms race would never have been found until much later than it was.
Convince me that having more war toys is a good thing. Unless your national purpose is to be the king of the world.

While war toys are good for survival in a world gone mad, that wasn't what I said. What I said was that we got a lot of great technology from the arms race and I guess you haven't noticed that we're using that technology in peaceful ways as well.

quote:

I am always curious about the motives of warmongers who do not have the courage to wear a uniform.
thompson

You must be getting tired, why not go take a nap.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/14/2007 7:09:49 PM >

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/14/2007 6:39:05 PM

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quote:

Let me see if I understand you corectly. Russia who had nuclear missiles aimed and targeted at the U.S. gets a pass on a preemptive strike unless they are actually preparing to launch. Iran is next in line for a preemptive strike because they are doing nuclear research that may lead to building nuclear missiles. Did I miss anything?

Yes, you’ve missed quite a lot, actually. Just for starters there’s this from an earlier post of mine on page ten:

quote:

I am not making a blanket declaration for always throwing the first punch and, indeed, I don’t see the need for a military strike against Iran at this time (that opinion may change in the future).

As for your first question – yes. The communist government of Russia, for all it’s faults, was not completely irrational. They understood the folly of launching a nuclear first strike. They understood the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction. I have seen little evidence that the Iranian Government,with it’s Mullahs on a mission from God to destroy the Great Satan, and with their embrace of "martyrs" and suicide missions, possesses the same level of rationality.

All things are not equal which is why what may not be acceptable in one situation may be acceptable in another.

Also bear in mind that when Russia acquired nuclear weapons the United State’s first strike capabilities were not as sophisticated as today (although a first strike was advocated – General Lemay I think it was).

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/14/2007 10:01:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Being aware of your dislike of the net as a source of information could you give us some sort of cite for the millions and millions who perished or is this a number you have plucked from some place that the sun does not shine.

It's not that I dislike the Internet as a source for information, thompson - what I ask for (that you can never provide) are reliable sources. When you ask me I can always say, "Here you go." In this case, the estimates are fifty million.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2007-02,GGLG:en&q=gulags+soviet
Well I went to this site and the one that says 30 to 50 million died between 1930 and 1955 is untitled ...that is it does not say who they are or where they got their information or how it was derived.
In the Item above it the Wikipedia it claims from the official secret documents of the NKVD recently declasified that the number is between 1 million and 1.6 million for the same period and gives sources. This would be on the order of 60 some odd thousand a year not too far removed from what we used to kill on the highways every year before seat belts and airbags. Probably a little less than the number of native americans we murdered on our way west.
If you add the unsubstantiated number of 50 million to the 25 million russians who died in WWII we come up with 75 million body bags add this to the twenty or so million men in the army at the end of the war add to that the number of people it would take to support that many people and it becomes pretty clear that the numbers don't add up. So the number from the NKVD seem to make more sense.

quote:

All the people who died when the USSR attacked Afghanistan,
I thought it was the russians who got their collective butts spanked there.

My point was that all the people who died in Afghanistan, etc., wouldn't have, had we stopped Russia in the early days of the cold war.
How many russians do you think we would have had to kill to save those who died in Afghanistan.
Seems like we are just trading one set of body bags for another.

quote:

all the Eastern Europeans who perished trying to reach freedom... all the Cubans who are still prisoners on their own island...
Cubans do not seem to have any trouble leaving their island...witness the Gonzalez kids momma was making her third or fourth round trip to visit her boyfriend.
You are aware that there are U.S. citizens who are not allowed to leave the country. I believe it is next year that we will all need a passport to go to Canada, Mexico, The Bahamas...to leave the country at all. If you are denied a passport how can you leave the country legally?

You're really comparing the USA, which people die trying to get into, with Eastern Europe under the USSR and Cuba where people were shot if they tried escaping???
I have never heard of Cuba killing anyone leaving Cuba but I have read of people being shot trying to get into the U.S.

Hmm. I guess I can't argue with that kind of logic, can I...
that is the nature of logical thought.

quote:

And with the memories of what had happened after we allowed Hitler to prepare for war fresh in everyones' minds, not that many would have objected back then, either. In fact, it's almost curious that we didn't. I think that the USA is so meek and so nice and so gentle that there's never been a superpower who's spent this much time examining its own belly button rather than acting in its own self-interest in the history of the planet.
How about you tell us all about how the meek and belly button examining U.S. has either started or insinuated itself into every war we have been involved in. Who has attacked us first?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe just the 9/11 terrorists, for starters?
I can only suggest a semester or two of physics then perhaps you can explain how an airplane bumping into a building will make it fall down. Oh BTW how did building 7 happen to fall down ....no airplanes bumped into it?

quote:

Think of the money too, that was wasted in the arms race... had we acted more rationally and smited them before it got started, the planet could have been a much nicer place, though all the technology developed in the arms race would never have been found until much later than it was.
Convince me that having more war toys is a good thing. Unless your national purpose is to be the king of the world.

While war toys are good for survival in a world gone mad, that wasn't what I said. What I said was that we got a lot of great technology from the arms race and I guess you haven't noticed that we're using that technology in peaceful ways as well.
Are you suggesting that that we are too stupid to come up with all of these peacful things without building war toys?

quote:

I am always curious about the motives of warmongers who do not have the courage to wear a uniform.
thompson

You must be getting tired, why not go take a nap.
I never get tired of pointing out warmongers that don't have the courage to put on a uniform.
thompson

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/14/2007 10:53:48 PM

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I have no idea why all this hostility is being directed at me. I have no idea what it was I said that set it off. I know that it wasn’t the comments about "translating your posts" because it started before that. So I am utterly clueless.

As for "translating your posts" that was meant to be seen as a humourous way of saying I was mulling your posts over. If you can’t take a joke, oh well. But humor usually hides an element of truth and there is some truth in what I said – you have a "train of thought" writing style that is difficult to follow. Seriously, I feel like I’m playing a game of pick-up sticks with words. Your main post comes across as a series of angry rants and accusations, only I’m not always certain exactly what it is I am being accused of. Apparently I am some sort of arrogant warmonger or something.

So, in my defense I will first say that your posts to me are a perfect example of what I call "following the scripts." Somewhere in one of my posts I said "A" (although I don’t know what "A" is) and you jumped to a series of conclusions. If he believes "A" then he also believes "B" and if he believes "B" then he also believes "C" and "D." Then you went off on me for believing "B, C, and D." I can’t possibly address (nor do I want to) every single thing you said but there are a few things that I must.

quote:

To debate it's just 'human nature' as a root cause for all evil is sheer stupidity, an excuse for one's actions.

I’m not going to bore everyone with a long dissertation on my personal philosophies but I do believe that human nature, our animal nature, is the root cause of humanity’s spending the last several thousand years (and probably much longer) fucking each other over in one form or another on scales both large and small. I see human nature as the driving force behind all our many ideologies and belief systems – variations on a theme. This is what I mean when I say there is no difference between modern day Iran and Nazi Germany. While I accept human nature as the cause of our evil I most certainly do not accept it as an excuse for it. One of the things that makes humanity unique in the animal kingdom is our ability to override our instincts, our ability to reason. We also have the ability to empathize. Amidst the long train of tragedy there have been shining examples of compassion. We can do better but to do so we must address the real root cause of our problems – ourselves. We must find ways to channel our destructive tendencies, our need to dominate and control at the expense of others, into constructive purposes or creative outlets. I don’t claim to have all the answers on how to do this but what civil society we have been able to maintain is the result of a partial ability to do this. For example, we can work off some of our aggressive needs through sports, either through playing sports or by proxy through rooting for a sports team. I could go on and on with this but I think the main point is made.

quote:

Human nature dictates we are all the same Bush scum. We all seek to control, to dehumanize, to exploit, if we were positioned with the means/money/power. There is no debate then. We...are...all the same. So why do you argue so?

I do not contend that we are all the same scum. I do contend that each and every one of us is both a potential Hitler and a potential Mother Teresa. The vast majority of us fall somewhere in between those two extremes.

You then go on to talk about the military, Bush spending trillions of dollars on war, Regan cutting social service programs, and Walmart doing business with China. Once again, variations on a theme. The particulars can be debated (should we or should we not trade with China?), I just think it should be done with our motivations and self interest clearly understood.

quote:

Pre-emptive strike.......is nothing but a cloud for an unprovoked aggressive invasion of another country. An excuse to justify, and sell the invasion to the public, the government's subjects, for acceptance and support of said invasion. To do that, you need an event to galvanize the populace. Hilter used the Reightstag to galvanized the German people against the Jews.

Just because something has been used negatively doesn’t mean that every use of it is negative. Yes, pre-emptive strikes have been used as pretenses for aggression but that doesn’t mean they aren’t a legitimate response to a real threat. If Poland had decided to launch a pre-emptive strike against Germany on August 31st, 1939, would you blame them?

quote:

You shout the other guy is going to attack us, yet no such evidence exists. But you just ' think'..... the other guy is going to attack, so you hit him first. Right?

I have not shouted the other guy is going to attack us (although in the case of Iran I am extremely suspicious and their obvious antipathy for us is evidence that given the chance, they would). I have simply stated that given a known and obvious threat, a pre-emptive strike is a viable option. I have already stated, more than once, that I do not consider a pre-emptive strike against Iran a necessity at this time. I truly hope (despite your unfounded contention that World War Three would be alright with me) that it never comes to that.

Lastly, this thing about Ebay and the Post Office. I still don’t see how it fits into all of this. So the Post Office advertises for Ebay (can’t say I’ve seen it at my Post Office but for the sake of argument, I’ll take your word for it)? They do this because Ebay’s success benefits them. I don’t see anything surprising about this. Groups with mutual self interests have been scratching each other’s backs for ages. It’s called business. It’s called politics.

So, with all that, I’ll end with this note:

GO PURPLE EAGLES – WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually I’m not really interested in basketball but I do believe in rooting for the home team. If they win it allows me, by proxy, to feel a little smug and superior for a little while.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to ferryman777)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/15/2007 2:38:36 AM

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You know, it's not in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence anywhere delegating the authority to "Free" or "Save" anyone not a Citizen in any other nation.

This doesn't mean it's ok to snatch them off the street and torture them, but "Bringing them Freedom", just isn't the job of our Government.

If you WANT IT to be, then just Amend the Constitution.

If you don't amend it, then it's not the role of the Feds.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Marc2b)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/15/2007 3:56:28 AM

Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Well I went to this site and the one that says 30 to 50 million died between 1930 and 1955 is untitled ...that is it does not say who they are or where they got their information or how it was derived.
In the Item above it the Wikipedia it claims from the official secret documents of the NKVD recently declasified that the number is between 1 million and 1.6 million for the same period and gives sources. This would be on the order of 60 some odd thousand a year not too far removed from what we used to kill on the highways every year before seat belts and airbags. Probably a little less than the number of native americans we murdered on our way west.
If you add the unsubstantiated number of 50 million to the 25 million russians who died in WWII we come up with 75 million body bags add this to the twenty or so million men in the army at the end of the war add to that the number of people it would take to support that many people and it becomes pretty clear that the numbers don't add up. So the number from the NKVD seem to make more sense.

That's the long way of admitting that you learned something, but you're welcome.

quote:

How many russians do you think we would have had to kill to save those who died in Afghanistan. Seems like we are just trading one set of body bags for another.

On top of the 50+ million who died in gulags? And those who were systematically starved... and all of the needless suffering that socialism caused there. An ounce of prevention may well have been worth tons and tons of cure in this case.

quote:

I can only suggest a semester or two of physics then perhaps you can explain how an airplane bumping into a building will make it fall down. Oh BTW how did building 7 happen to fall down ....no airplanes bumped into it?

Oh... tin-foil-hat time. I'm SO sorry!

quote:

Are you suggesting that that we are too stupid to come up with all of these peacful things without building war toys?

Through the ages, most technology has been developed in the pursuit of war and hunting. If you don't like reality, feel free to revert to your usual method of pulling something out of your ass to believe in instead, I really don't care how ignorant you choose to be.

quote:

I never get tired of pointing out warmongers that don't have the courage to put on a uniform.
thompson

Such a tired boy! He sure is! Must be nappy time! A booga booga booga!!!! Where's your binky? Tired, tired boy! Nity-nite now!!!

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/15/2007 5:09:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

On top of the 50+ million who died in gulags? And those who were systematically starved... and all of the needless suffering that socialism caused there. An ounce of prevention may well have been worth tons and tons of cure in this case.

50 million is something of a creative figure. The Russian population in 1926 was 147 million. + 56million in the provinces and Soviet Republics. Stalin was the General Secreatary of the Communist party from 1922 but only got a grip of the party from 1928 onwards. In 1950, three years before his death, the Russian population was 181 million and in the provinces and Soviet Republics around 70 million. No one knows how many people died in the Gulags though the upper estimates that remain in the realms of reality are around 1.5 - 2 million based on official papers which don't include executions, 1 million in famine in the 1930s, with 20 million dying in WWII.

50million is pure fantasy and anyone with half a brain should be able to work out with readily available data that is nothing but idiotic propaganda that only the gulible will swallow. The height of the camp system only saw a population of 2.5 million inmates.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/15/2007 5:13:55 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/15/2007 5:25:09 AM

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I see that you also have a lot of trouble supporting your wild, unfounded claims. Every book and website out there says you're full of it... and all you have is your word, pulled right out of your ass. Why do you two even bother, when your obvious lies and distortions rip apart any credibility that you may have had. Bush bashers are liars, that's the message you send.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

50million is pure fantasy and anyone with half a brain should be able to work out with readily available data that is nothing but idiotic propaganda that only the gulible will swallow. The height of the camp system only saw a population of 2.5 million inmates.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/15/2007 6:08:41 AM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/15/2007 6:41:40 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I see that you also have a lot of trouble supporting your wild, unfounded claims. Every book and website out there says you're full of it... and all you have is your word, pulled right out of your ass. Why do you two even bother, when your obvious lies and distortions rip apart any credibility that you may have had. Bush bashers are liars, that's the message you send.

Sanity, your figures are a joke, pure nonsense. I have never read a creditable history book that has even suggested anywhere near 50 million people died in the gulags, not anywhere near 10 million for that matter. The figures are freely available.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/15/2007 6:48:17 AM

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Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

You know, it's not in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence anywhere delegating the authority to "Free" or "Save" anyone not a Citizen in any other nation.

This doesn't mean it's ok to snatch them off the street and torture them, but "Bringing them Freedom", just isn't the job of our Government.

If you WANT IT to be, then just Amend the Constitution.

If you don't amend it, then it's not the role of the Feds.

Ummm... are you sure this was meant for me? Because I don't see what snatching people off the street and torturing them has to do with any of my recent posts.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/15/2007 6:56:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I see that you also have a lot of trouble supporting your wild, unfounded claims. Every book and website out there says you're full of it... and all you have is your word, pulled right out of your ass. Why do you two even bother, when your obvious lies and distortions rip apart any credibility that you may have had. Bush bashers are liars, that's the message you send.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

50million is pure fantasy and anyone with half a brain should be able to work out with readily available data that is nothing but idiotic propaganda that only the gulible will swallow. The height of the camp system only saw a population of 2.5 million inmates.

Let's take more liberal estimates and go for the higher end of 20 million, it still leaves your estimates 30 million too many. Though the 20 million is hotly disputed because it doesn't show up in Russian census' which I admit have been questioned. People tend to get carried away with these sorts of figures and they take on a life of their own. It is like the 6,000,000 Jewish deaths in Nazi concentration camps when there doesn't seem to have been 6million Jews in Europe but there is no argument here because as we know, the Nazis were trying to kill all Jews. You just have to look at the infrastructure necessary for the Nazis to kill 12 million people in concentration camps, an infrastructure we know the Russians didn't have, that alone should get you to questioning your 50million.

Soviet regime, estimates that one out of every three new inmates died during the first year of imprisonment. Only half made it through the third year. Conquest estimates that during the "Great Terror" of the late 1930s alone, there were six million arrests, two million executions, and another two million deaths from other causes in the camps. It is Conquest's belief that, by the time of Stalin's death in 1953, about twelve million had perished in the Gulag. Certain investigators, such as the late Andrei Sakharov, have put the figure much higher, from 15 to 20 million. These apparent discrepancies result from honest historians studying crimes, committed in a closed society, of a magnitude never before seen, without reliable documentation.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/15/2007 7:06:40 AM

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Concerning the deaths in the Gulag et al:

I think the deaths in the Gulag are being confused with the deaths from Stalin's genocide against the Ukrainians or perhaps the total number of deaths under his reign (I wonder if that includes Soviet military deaths on the battlefields of World War Two, because those should actually be attributed to Hitler). I've heard figures for the Gulag of two to three million and the Ukrainian starvation of up to fifty million although most sources I recall put that number much lower as well (10 million). None-the-less I have heard the fifty million figure bandied around when it comes to "number of deaths" and Stalin. Bottom line, I suppose is "living under brutal dictators is hazardous to your health."

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to Marc2b)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/15/2007 7:56:45 AM

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I forgot to post the link I quoted.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v21/v21n1p39_michaels.html

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/15/2007 8:08:50 AM

Posts: 198
Joined: 2/23/2007
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The Ebay thing was a 'stand alone' statement, nothing to do with the Iraq and pre-emptive anything, a stand alone injection, I didn't say it was, just asked, an injection > purpose, to see if you would bite. To see which statements you would attack first. I never said it had anything to do with pre-emptive. Business is business, granted, but why not for every other 'Mom & Dad' business as well, why not for 'Tom's Rug' or anything else, separate issues, which you lumped into the entire senario; how does it feel? You insult, mock, carry your air of superior intellect, then dismiss it all with a flipent toss. Now, another issue> The increases, were a government issue, hidden tax which is open ended. The 'follow the money' senario which you dismiss. You are such a vast wealth of information, and yet have difficulty decerning issues.

You dodge the pre-emptive strike issue, implications, it is okay, if one assumes, believes, the other guy is going to attack. You say, yes you hit first to save untold numbers of lives which may be lost. Your 'bullie in the hallway' concoction. Bush used pre-emptive for invasion, when all investigations showed him there was no threat. The hype being to 'protect' the US homeland, to oust a 'Hilterlistic' (in Bush sr's Iraq one; the media showed in split screen both Saddam and Hilter ranting in speeches, over and over) dictator which would bring down freedom as we know it. Never was the quest for 'oil' brought into the equation. It was was sold as humanitarin in scope; to protect, defend, america's freedom, the homeland, our children.

The 'oil' should be stated, 'The control of Oil'; >translates to> control of economies world wide. That control, ownership thereof, the dictating of price, supply, etc; is the economic conquest of the world; backed up with the military might to ensure and maintain that control; smashing any other would be challenger.

If Iraq did indeed have WMD on hand, how would Iraq deliver the 'hit'? Did they have a delivery system for eminent war against the US?

You waited in ambush for the 'bullie', then you hit him, .....and claim you were protecting yourself, that he may , MAY hit you. Then you say, after that no one messed with you. And this is how you would run the world. Well, you see what that 'pre-emptive' has accomplished. Now other nations are preparing for war, preparing for the 'ambush' in the hallway as it were. War is just plainly too costly, any war would bankrupt any nation. So, our 'father' creates a .....war. The costs go through the stratosphere, and this 'war' must be funded....the search for revenues then begin.

Now Iran is under warnings. Yet, you say there is not a possibility of a WW three, or slight at best; however, which most likely be nuclear in scope. But, that's okay.

You bore me; Over and out, have a good nap. Get on with the Gulag numbers.

(in reply to Marc2b)

RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/15/2007 8:25:13 AM

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

Ummm... are you sure this was meant for me? Because I don't see what snatching people off the street and torturing them has to do with any of my recent posts.

No, just a general comment about the Unconstitutionality of the idea of "Spreading Democracy".

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Marc2b)

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