RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites

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Gauge -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 4:36:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge As a bumper sticker I saw said: When Clinton lied no one died. It really should have said, We Liberals Lie, because 7500 Military Personnel under Clinton died. How are we hypocritical,? We ALREADY have nukes, and are replacing old less than reliable weapons. Is it wrong for us to pressure North Korea to live up to their treaties? I don't think so, if Clinton didn't make concessions to them in the first place, this wouldn't even be an issue. I know you lefties hate that America is the only Superpower left, and wish everyone were equal, but this Utopia, where everyone under the sun is equal, living green, and where peace is the norm, and not the period between wars for armies retrain and restock up on personnel, is a pipe dream. And Europe and Asia should be damn glad it's us and not the Soviet Union who won the cold war. I am so glad that you have labeled me with a political bias of being left-wing. Anyone on these boards will tell you that politically I really have little interest in the left or the right, my interest lies in what I think it is we as a Nation should do. I am neither left or right, I ask a fair question and leave it open for debate.

Gauge -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 4:43:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sternhand4 quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge Fast Reply: Just to re-focus, my issue is with how we justify telling others what to do when we do not do the same thing. I have a basic problem with a double standard that we hold others accountable while we basically go unchecked. Who watches the watchers? It simple. We developed a technology that has the potential to end all life on the planet. We resolve to stop going down that path. How many nations need to make the same mistake? My UM's have used this logic in the past. The kid down the street does it, why can't I? Allow me to ask a question of you: It is your position then that we are preventing Iran and North Korea from developing nuclear capabilities so they do not make the mistake we did? Are you really trying to tell me that we are parenting other countries? And if we are parenting other countries... what gives us that right?

subrob1967 -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 4:45:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge I am so glad that you have labeled me with a political bias of being left-wing. Anyone on these boards will tell you that politically I really have little interest in the left or the right, my interest lies in what I think it is we as a Nation should do. I am neither left or right, I ask a fair question and leave it open for debate. I'm glad you completely ignored the points I brought up, and the fact I called bullshit to the "Clinton lied, no one died" lie of the left. Instead of proclaiming your independence, how about answering the questions I asked.

meatcleaver -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 4:53:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 You want to know what it appears like to me, MC? Apparently you think anyone that participates in a war is committing a war crime. For some reason people have trouble understanding that in a war...PEOPLE DIE! Lots of people die! You can try to be as careful as you can, but no matter what innocent people are going to die. Does that mean it is a war crime? Nope. It's considered "collateral damage." It is only a war crime when the people are specifically targetted. Japan attacked the United States where nearly 2,500 people died. That is an act of war. America won the war and Japan paid the price. So dont try to twist and rewrite history to serve your own anti-America agenda. If Japan didn't attack America, they would not have been nuked. And Europe would have lost to Germany. I have no problem with people going to war when they are attacked and people die but if we are going down the road of justification, it was the USA that forced Japan to open up its ports in what is known in Japan as the humiliation of the unequal treaties. The USA told them what the consequences would be if they didn't in no uncertain terms. The reason for Japan's militarisation and modernisation was to prevent itself becoming a colony of the west. So it was America who interfered first, the USA's history with Japan didn't start at Pearl Harbour! However, the slaughter of 200,000 Japanese civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki was just that, slaughter, it wasn't militarily necessary. But let's get back to thje OP, it is about America's hypocrisy. Many Americans seem to find it incomprehensible that some other country might want nukes as a defence against the US and the west, just look at the west record! The west is mad! Just step out of your American shoes for one moment, take off your blinkers and look at America's behaviour from an objective point of view.

Gauge -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 4:54:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge I am so glad that you have labeled me with a political bias of being left-wing. Anyone on these boards will tell you that politically I really have little interest in the left or the right, my interest lies in what I think it is we as a Nation should do. I am neither left or right, I ask a fair question and leave it open for debate. I'm glad you completely ignored the points I brought up, and the fact I called bullshit to the "Clinton lied, no one died" lie of the left. Instead of proclaiming your independence, how about answering the questions I asked. Funny, I do not remember any instance where Clinton's sexual affair led to the deaths of 7,500 servicemen. But you may be right after all, I know some guys that would do anything for a blowjob. As for your statistics, I am not here to address the merits of Clinton over Bush or Regan or any such nonsense. It really isn't pertinent to the discussion that I started. My question remains: What gives us the right?

Gauge -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 4:57:29 PM)
quote: Just step out of your American shoes for one moment, take off your blinkers and look at America's behaviour from an objective point of view. I am not sure why I didn't say this but I sure couldn't have said it any better.

HydroMaster -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 5:06:08 PM)
Gauge, the guy that posted way back there didn't mean 7500 servicemen died because of a blow job. He's just saying that Clinton's administration wasn't without their war and death either. But somehow Clinton came out of his presidency and the only bad thing people remember about him is that he lied about getting a BJ. I'm from a military family. There was no love for the Clinton administration and there isn't any for the Bush administration. To say that one was any less bloody than the other has no weight to it. But I would have liked Clinton to do more when the terroist attacks started. Instead he got us involved in a civil war in Bosnia. Back to the OP. After thinking about the nuclear arms issue that started this. I really can't see any purpose to having nuclear missiles anymore. If a nuclear attack were to hit the US it would more likely be carried in...not lauched by a missile. So the threat of a nuclear counterstrike from the US becomes irrelevant...who would be the target? A large ICBM arsenal in itself is obsolete, why bother with upgrades.

popeye1250 -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 5:08:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge I am so glad that you have labeled me with a political bias of being left-wing. Anyone on these boards will tell you that politically I really have little interest in the left or the right, my interest lies in what I think it is we as a Nation should do. I am neither left or right, I ask a fair question and leave it open for debate. I'm glad you completely ignored the points I brought up, and the fact I called bullshit to the "Clinton lied, no one died" lie of the left. Instead of proclaiming your independence, how about answering the questions I asked. Funny, I do not remember any instance where Clinton's sexual affair led to the deaths of 7,500 servicemen. But you may be right after all, I know some guys that would do anything for a blowjob. As for your statistics, I am not here to address the merits of Clinton over Bush or Regan or any such nonsense. It really isn't pertinent to the discussion that I started. My question remains: What gives us the right? Ah,...Guage, I don't think "Clinton's Affair" (could) be responsable for 7,500 deaths. (???) As for Nukes as an American I don't really care who has them. If they start any shit with us we have nuclear submarines so they're just signing their own death warrant. I just don't want to give anyone any money for "not" having them.

Zensee -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 5:08:35 PM)
Popeye, I never said there were no civilian or military casualties during the Clinton years. Every president has some blood on his Oval Office carpet. The policies on Somalia or Bosnia for which that blood was spilled may not have been agreeable to you or Sternhand but they were overt. Bush lied to start this war and that fact makes a huge, huge difference. Z.

popeye1250 -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 5:14:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee Popeye, I never said there were no civilian or military casualties during the Clinton years. Every president has some blood on his Oval Office carpet. The policies on Somalia or Bosnia for which that blood was spilled may not have been agreeable to you or Sternhand but they were overt. Bush lied to start this war and that fact makes a huge, huge difference. Z. Zensee, you're preaching to the choir here, I think BOTH Clinton and Bush are lowlife scumbags.

Gauge -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 5:14:52 PM)
quote: Gauge, the guy that posted way back there didn't mean 7500 servicemen died because of a blow job. He's just saying that Clinton's administration wasn't without their war and death either. But somehow Clinton came out of his presidency and the only bad thing people remember about him is that he lied about getting a BJ. I'm from a military family. There was no love for the Clinton administration and there isn't any for the Bush administration. To say that one was any less bloody than the other has no weight to it. But I would have liked Clinton to do more when the terroist attacks started. Instead he got us involved in a civil war in Bosnia. Hydro, I do understand what he meant. I blasted Clinton over Bosnia because he thought he could stop a civil war that has gone on for a mere 600 years or so. My issue is not partisan. It is not touting the merits of one president over another, it just is a question.

Zensee -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 5:18:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Zensee, you're preaching to the choir here, I think BOTH Clinton and Bush are lowlife scumbags. But Popeye, there's snakes and there's snake's bellies, surely?

defiantbadgirl -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 5:19:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 As for Nukes as an American I don't really care who has them. If they start any shit with us we have nuclear submarines so they're just signing their own death warrant. I just don't want to give anyone any money for "not" having them. If a nuclear war starts, that signs the entire worlds death warrant. This planet shares the same atmosphere.

popeye1250 -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 5:24:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Zensee, you're preaching to the choir here, I think BOTH Clinton and Bush are lowlife scumbags. But Popeye, there's snakes and there's snake's bellies, surely? Zensee, when you get that low who's counting?

Dtesmoac -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 6:17:57 PM)
From the article the line which should be being pushed is "The administration also argues that a phasing out of current warheads with the more modern design will allow additional reductions in the number of warheads that will be needed." Why can the US president not get a decent PR organisation? The timing is lousy but at least get a deffinite number of warheads that will be reduced and include it in the announcement. Sound as if you are trying to reduce the global stock pile................ but no, as always in recent years, totally bloody ignore what it sounds like to the other people in the world and give them some more amunition to us aginst the US in the global headline battle of who is the biggest threat, GW or the nutty terrorists.

farglebargle -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 6:57:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge I am so glad that you have labeled me with a political bias of being left-wing. Anyone on these boards will tell you that politically I really have little interest in the left or the right, my interest lies in what I think it is we as a Nation should do. I am neither left or right, I ask a fair question and leave it open for debate. I'm glad you completely ignored the points I brought up, and the fact I called bullshit to the "Clinton lied, no one died" lie of the left. Instead of proclaiming your independence, how about answering the questions I asked. CORRECT. When Clinton committed the crime of perjury, no-one died. When Bush committed the crime of Consipracy to Defraud the United States, 500,000 people died.

subrob1967 -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 7:12:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle CORRECT. When Clinton committed the crime of perjury, no-one died. When Bush committed the crime of Consipracy to Defraud the United States, 500,000 people died. Got a link that proves that 500.000 people have died due the U.S. government? Or are you just using the typical "moveon" talking points? You guys love to blame 3000 military deaths on Bush, yet turn a blind eye to the 7500 that died on Clinton's watch... Hypocracy, thy name is Liberal

farglebargle -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 7:17:35 PM)
"Got a link that proves that 500.000 people have died due the U.S. government? Or are you just using the typical "moveon" talking points?" Ok, How many people have died since The US Occupation of Iraq began?

Sternhand4 -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 7:57:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle "Got a link that proves that 500.000 people have died due the U.S. government? Or are you just using the typical "moveon" talking points?" Ok, How many people have died since The US Occupation of Iraq began? Just in Iraq? or all over the globe in places like Darfur? I would have though body counts beneath you...

subrob1967 -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 8:35:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Ok, How many people have died since The US Occupation of Iraq began? You made the statement, the burden of proof is on you. The question you should ask, is, how many Iraqis died before the U.S. invaded? Then how many Iraqis died due to Iraqi on Iraqi deaths? Only you folks on the left want to blame Bush for everything from "global climate change" to piss poor Veterans care via the VA, and everything in between. Get off your high horses, you're hero Clinton was no better.

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