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Passing Out - 3/13/2007 8:16:46 AM   
subsnow


Posts: 152
Joined: 11/26/2006
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my Dom will sometimes wrap a hand around my neck and squeeze. Usually i can still breath if i want to. Even if i can't breath, nothing happens. It's just like i'm holding my breath. No big deal. We both get a thrill from it. It is a ver powerful gesture. He holds my life in His hand. He has all the control.

This past weekend He used 2 hands for the first time. He squeezed like usual but i got very dizzy right away and passed out falling limp in His arms. He said He shook me and called my name a few times. He said i snorted a bit, my eyelids fluttered, and then i came to. i remember waking up and feeling like i had been out for hours even though it had only been seconds. i couldn't remember how i got there or where i was. He asked if i was ok and i told Him i must have fallen asleep and had a nightmare or something. Then i started balling. i was terrified.

This all happened so fast that i couldn't even let Him know that i was dizzy. The minute He wrapped His fingers around my neck i got dizzy and passed out. Why did i pass out this time but not other times? i feel like i should have had time to struggle a bit before passing out like i did. Is it possible that He cut off my blood supply or something? What could have happened here?
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RE: Passing Out - 3/13/2007 8:43:44 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
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Copied with permission from Sir Tru

FROM THE DESK OF SIR TRU ***EXCLUSIVE EDITION*** 05/24/06
there has been something i been wanting to learn about more so i got some books from a good friend of mine about (8Books) lol  and i plan to get REAL DEEP so dont think this is lite reading it is not by a long shot so put on you thinking cap cuz i am about to go deep as the abyss.   For some time now, I have felt that the practices of suffocation and/or strangulation done in an erotic context (generically known as breath control play; more properly known as asphyxiophilia) were in fact far more dangerous than they are generally perceived to be.

As a person with years of medical education and experience, I know of no way whatsoever that either suffocation or strangulation can be done in a way that does not intrinsically put the recipient at risk of cardiac arrest. (There are also numerous additional risks; more on them later.)

Furthermore, and my *biggest* concern, I know of no reliable way to determine when such a cardiac arrest has become imminent.

Often the first detectable sign that an arrest is approaching is the arrest itself. Furthermore, if the recipient does arrest, the probability of resuscitating them, even with optimal CPR, is distinctly small. Thus the recipient is dead and their partner, if any, is in a very perilous legal situation. (The authorities could consider such deaths first-degree murders until proven otherwise, with the burden of such proof being on the defendant). There are also the real and major concerns of the surviving partner's own life-long remorse to having caused such a death, and the trauma to the friends and family members of both parties.

Some breath control fans say that what they do is acceptably safe because they do not take what they do up to the point of unconsciousness. I find this statement worrisome for two reasons:

(1) You can't really know when a person is about to go unconscious until they actually do so, thus it's extremely difficult to know where the actual point of unconsciousness is until you actually reach it.

(2) More importantly, unconsciousness is a *symptom*, not a condition in and of itself. It has numerous underlying causes ranging from simple fainting to cardiac arrest, and which of these will cause the unconsciousness cannot be known in advance.

I have discussed my concerns regarding breath control with well over a three SM-positive physicians, and with numerous other SM-positive health professionals, and all share my concerns. We have discussed how breath control might be done in a way that is not life-threatening, and come up blank. We have discussed how the risk might be significantly reduced, and come up blank. We have discussed how it might be determined that an arrest is imminent, and come up blank.

Indeed, so far not one (repeat, not one) single physician, nurse, paramedic, chiropractor, physiologist, or other person with substantial training in how a human body works has been willing to step forth and teach a form of breath control play that they are willing to assert is acceptably safe -- i.e., does not put the recipient at imminent, unpredictable risk of dying. I believe this fact makes a major statement.

Other "edge play" topics such as suspension bondage, electricity play, cutting, piercing, branding, enemas, water sports, and scat play can and have been taught with reasonable safety, but not breath control play. Indeed, it seems that the more somebody knows about how a human body works, the more likely they are to caution people about how dangerous breath control is, and about how little can be done to reduce the degree of risk.

In many ways, oxygen is to the human body, and particularly to the heart and brain, what oil is to a car's engine. Indeed, there's a medical adage that goes "hypoxia (becoming dangerously low on oxygen) not only stops the motor, but also wrecks the engine." Therefore, asking how one can play safely with breath control is very similar to asking how one can drive a car safely while draining it of oil.

Some people tell the "mechanics" something like, "Well, I'm going to drain my car of oil anyway, and I'm not going to keep track of how low the oil level is getting while I'm driving my car, so tell me how to do this with as much safety as possible." (They may even add someting like "Hey, I always shut the engine off before it catches fire.") They then get frustrated when the mechanics scratch their heads and say that they don't know. They may even label such mechanics as "anti-education."

A bit about my background may help explain my concerns. I was in the marine corp for ten years i was trained in  Advanced Cardiac Life Support. I have an extensive martial arts background that includes a first-degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do. My martial arts training included several months of judo that involved both my choking and being choked.

I have been an instructor in first aid, CPR, and various advanced emergency care techniques for over fourteen years. My students have included physicians, nurses, paramedics, police officers, fire fighters, wilderness emergency personnel, martial artists, and large numbers of ordinary citizens. I currently offer both basic and advanced first aid and CPR training to the SM community. 

Additionally, I personally know two members of my local SM community who went to prison after their partners died during breath control play.

The primary danger of suffocation play is that it is not a condition that gets worse over time (regarding the heart, anyway, it does get worse over time regarding the brain). Rather, what happens is that the more the play is prolonged, the greater the odds that a cardiac arrest will occur. Sometimes even one minute of suffocation can cause this; sometimes even less.

Quick pathophysiology lesson # 1: When the heart gets low on oxygen, it starts to fire off "extra" pacemaker sites. These usually appear in the ventricles and are thus called premature ventricular contractions -- PVC's for short. If a PVC happens to fire off during the electrical repolarization phase of cardiac contraction (the dreaded "PVC on T" phenomenon, also sometimes called "R on T") it can kick the heart over into ventricular fibrillation -- a form of cardiac arrest. The lower the heart gets on oxygen, the more PVC's it generates, and the more vulnerable to their effect it becomes, thus hypoxia increases both the probability of a PVC-on-T occurring and of its causing a cardiac arrest.

When this will happen to a particular person in a particular session is simply not predictable. This is exactly where most of the medical people I have discussed this topic with "hit the wall." Virtually all medical folks know that PVC's are both life-threating and hard to detect unless the patient is hooked to a cardiac monitor. When medical folks discuss breath control play, the question quickly becomes: How can you tell when they start throwing PVC's? The answer is: You basically can't.

Quick pathophysiology lesson # 2: When breathing is restricted, the body cannot eliminate carbon dioxide as it should, and the amount of carbon dioxide in the blood increases. Carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O) exist in equilibrium with what's called carbonic acid (H2CO3) in a reaction catalyzed by an enzyme called carbonic anhydrase. (Sorry, but I can't do subscripts in this program.)

Thus: CO2 + H2O H2CO3

A molecule of carbonic acid dissociates on its own into a molecule of what's called bicarbonate (HCO3-) and an (acidic) hydrogen ion. (H+)

Thus: H2CO3 <> HCO3- and H+

Thus the overall pattern is:

H2O + CO2 <> H2CO3 <> HCO3- + H+

Therefore, if breathing is restricted, CO2 builds up and the reaction shifts to the right in an attempt to balance things out, ultimately making the blood more acidic and thus decreasing its pH. This is called respiratory acidosis. (If the patient hyperventilates, they "blow off CO2" and the reaction shifts to the left, thus increasing the pH. This is called respiratory alkalosis, and has its own dangers.)

Quick pathophysiology lesson # 3:

Again, if breathing is restricted, not only does carbon dioxide have a hard time getting out, but oxygen also has a hard time getting in. A molecule of glucose (C6H12O6) breaks down within the cell by a process called glycolysis into two molecules of pyruvate, thus creating a small amount of ATP for the body to use as energy. Under normal circumstances, pyruvate quickly combines with oxygen to produce a much larger amount of ATP. However, if there's not enough oxygen to properly metabolize the pyruvate, it is converted into lactic acid and produces one form of what's called a metabolic acidosis.

As you can see, either a build-up in the blood of carbon dioxide or a decrease in the blood of oxygen will cause the pH of the blood to fall. If both occur at the same time, as they do in cases of suffocation, the pH of the blood will plummet to life-threatening levels within a very few minutes. The pH of normal human blood is in the 7.35 to 7.45 range (slightly alkaline). A pH falling to 6.9 (or raising to 7.8) is "incompatible with life."

Past experience, either with others or with that same person, is not particularly useful. Carefully watching their level of consciousness, skin color, and pulse rate is of only limited value. Even hooking the bottom up to both a pulse oximeter and a cardiac monitor (assuming you had either piece of equipment, and they're not cheap) would be of only limited additional value.

While an experienced clinician can sometimes detect PVC's by feeling the patient's pulse, in reality the only reliable way to detect them is to hook the patient up to a cardiac monitor. The problem is that each PVC is potentially lethal, particularly if the heart is low on oxygen. Even if you "ease up" on the bottom immediately, there's no telling when the PVC's will stop. They could stop almost at once, or they could continue for hours.

In addition to the primary danger of cardiac arrest, there is good evidence to document that there is a very real risk of cumulative brain damage if the practice is repeated often enough. In particular, laboratory studies of repeated brief interruption of blood flow to the brains of animals and studies of people with what's called "sleep apnea syndrome" (in which they stop breathing for up to two minutes while sleeping) document that cumulative brain damage does occur in such cases.

There are many documented additional dangers. These include, but are _not_ limited to: rupture of the windpipe, fracture of the larynx, damage to the blood vessels in the neck, dislodging a fatty plaque in a neck artery which then travels to the brain and causes a stroke, damage to the cervical spine, seizures, airway obstruction by the tongue, and aspiration of vomitus. Additionally, there are documented cases in which the recipient appeared to fully recover but was found dead several hours later.

The American Psychiatric Association estimates a death rate of one person per year per million of population -- thus about 250 deaths last year in the U.S. Law enforcement estimates go as much as four times higher. Most such deaths occur during solo play, however there are many documented cases of deaths that occurred during play with a partner. It should be noted that the presence of a partner does nothing to limit the primary danger, and does little or nothing to limit most of the secondary dangers.

Some people teach that choking can be safely done if pressure on the windpipe is avoided. Their belief is that pressing on the arteries leading to the brain while avoiding pressure on the windpipe can safely cause unconsciousness. The reality, unfortunately, is that pressing on the carotid arteries, _exactly_ as they recommend, presses on baroreceptors known as the carotid sinus bodies. These bodies then cause vasodilation in the brain, thus there is not enough blood to perfuse the brain and the recipient loses consciousness. However, that's not the whole story.

Unfortunately, a message is also sent to the main pacemaker of the heart, via the vagus nerve, to decrease the rate and force of the heartbeat. Most of the time, under strong vagal influence, the rate and force of the heartbeat decreases by one third. However, every now and then, the rate and force decreases to zero and the bottom "flatlines" into asystole -- another, and more difficult to treat, form of cardiac arrest. There is no way to tell whether or not this will happen in any particular instance, or how quickly. There are many documented cases of as little as five seconds of choking causing a vagal-outflow-induced cardiac arrest.

For the reason cited above, many police departments have now either entirely banned the use of choke holds or have reclassified them as a form of deadly force. Indeed, a local FHP officer recently had a $250,000 judgment brought against him after a nonviolent suspect died while being choked by him.

Finally, as a CPR instructor myself, I want to caution that knowing CPR does little to make the risk of death from breath control play significantly smaller. While CPR can and should be done, understand that the probability of success is likely to be less than 10%.

I'm not going to state that breath control is something that nobody should ever do under any circumstances. I have no problem with informed, freely consenting people taking any degree of risk they wish. I am going to state that there is a great deal of ignorance regarding what actually happens to a body when it's suffocated or strangled, and that the actual degree of risk associated with these practices is far greater than most people believe.

I have noticed that, when people are educated regarding the severity and unpredictability of the risks, fewer and fewer choose to play in this area, and those who do continue tend to play less often. I also notice that, because of its severe and unpredictable risks, more and more SM party-givers are banning any form of breath control play at their events.

If you'd like to look into this matter further, here are some references to get you started:

"Emergency Care in the Streets" by Caroline (I'd recommend starting here.)

"Medical Physiology" by Guyton

"The Pathologic Basis of Disease" by Robbins

"Textbook of Advanced Cardiac Life Support" by American Heart Association

"The Physiology Coloring Book" by Kapit, Macey, and Meisami

"Forensic Pathology" by DeMaio and Demaio

"Autoerotic Fatalities" by Hazelwood

"Melloni's Illustrated Medical Dictionary" by Dox, Melloni, and Eisner



< Message edited by onestandingstill -- 3/13/2007 8:44:48 AM >

(in reply to subsnow)
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RE: Passing Out - 3/13/2007 10:27:10 AM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subsnow

my Dom will sometimes wrap a hand around my neck and squeeze. Usually i can still breath if i want to. Even if i can't breath, nothing happens. It's just like i'm holding my breath. No big deal. We both get a thrill from it. It is a ver powerful gesture. He holds my life in His hand. He has all the control.

This past weekend He used 2 hands for the first time. He squeezed like usual but i got very dizzy right away and passed out falling limp in His arms. He said He shook me and called my name a few times. He said i snorted a bit, my eyelids fluttered, and then i came to. i remember waking up and feeling like i had been out for hours even though it had only been seconds. i couldn't remember how i got there or where i was. He asked if i was ok and i told Him i must have fallen asleep and had a nightmare or something. Then i started balling. i was terrified.

This all happened so fast that i couldn't even let Him know that i was dizzy. The minute He wrapped His fingers around my neck i got dizzy and passed out. Why did i pass out this time but not other times? i feel like i should have had time to struggle a bit before passing out like i did. Is it possible that He cut off my blood supply or something? What could have happened here?


It sounds like he cut off blood circulation from your carotid artery which is what caused you to pass out so quickly. 

C~


_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to subsnow)
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RE: Passing Out - 3/13/2007 10:31:56 AM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill

Copied with permission from Sir Tru

FROM THE DESK OF SIR TRU ***EXCLUSIVE EDITION*** 05/24/06
there has been something i been wanting to learn about more so i got some books from a good friend of mine about (8Books) lol  and i plan to get REAL DEEP so dont think this is lite reading it is not by a long shot so put on you thinking cap cuz i am about to go deep as the abyss.   For some time now, I have felt that the practices of suffocation and/or strangulation done in an erotic context (generically known as breath control play; more properly known as asphyxiophilia) were in fact far more dangerous than they are generally perceived to be.



Since this article (this Sir Tru guy) seems to plagarize significantly from Jay Wiseman's article on Breath Play, I think its appropriate to also post this article:

http://www.datenschlag.org/howto/atem/english/wiseman.html

C~

P.S. - You can find Jay Wiseman's article at: http://members.aol.com/Oldrope/breath.htm


_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to onestandingstill)
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RE: Passing Out - 3/13/2007 12:12:37 PM   
subsnow


Posts: 152
Joined: 11/26/2006
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Thanks for those links. Very interesting matireal. Kinda scary. i'm going to have to share this with my Dom.

(in reply to Wildfleurs)
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RE: Passing Out - 3/13/2007 4:22:00 PM   
zindyslave


Posts: 601
Joined: 1/14/2007
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This might sound weird but when I was younger me and a friend used to put pressure on each others neck where the cartoid artery is to make each other pass out and it is quick and it feels weird so I know what you experienced we didn't know the risks then and now that I know them I told my Master that it is a hard limit for me. Something to consider for your own well being.

(in reply to subsnow)
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RE: Passing Out - 3/27/2007 3:39:08 AM   
twistedkytten


Posts: 240
Joined: 9/8/2006
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Tis simple sweetness.. instead of actual strangulation.. which is when one tends to struggle most.. sounds like He simply cut the blood supply through the artery... slightly fuzzy feeling... and then one finds themselves waking.. sometimes that in itself is most terrifying.. I have witnessed some loose control of bodily functions as well.. I personally would not engage in breath play with just anyone..  Master is very knowlegeable in so many areas I am a lucky girl.

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RE: Passing Out - 3/27/2007 8:42:14 PM   
xolarkinxo


Posts: 73
Joined: 9/10/2005
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Wildfluers, thank you for the links.  I'm going to have Tacs read this too..and my sister.  I had a similar experience though not in a D/s sense.  It was back in highschool, a guy squeezed one side of my neck and next I knew I was waking up with my head on the dark room counter.  He called it the "Spock"  or something like that.  Scared the hell out of me too.  I never thought about it leading to cardiac arrest though.  Thank you for this thread, subsnow.

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RE: Passing Out - 3/31/2007 5:43:29 AM   
SweetBobbie


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Joined: 10/21/2006
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Actually what likely happened is in pressing on both sides of the neck at the same time your friend compressed both carotid bodies which sense blood pressure to the head.  This convinced your body that there was too much blood pressure and it slowed the heart rate too slow and your blood pressure fell.  It is actually fairly difficult to cut off carotid flow and if you do it still takes several minutes for the brain to get hypoxia but a sudden drop in blood pressure is the same event as the old Southern Female Faint.  It is also called a vasovagal reaction.  It hits fast and resolves fast as well.  That is one reason the use of the carotid artery pulse is not recommended in cardiac arrests.  Of course in some people wiht underlying heart disease this can actually stop the heart completely.....NOT GOOD!!!

_____________________________

"No man can make you a slave. They can kill you but you must make yourself a slave." Lazarus Long aka Robert Heinlein

sweet bobbie

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RE: Passing Out - 4/6/2007 1:09:06 AM   
Aswad


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Compressing the carotid artery externally takes a fair bit of pressure; this is what a reverse naked choke is for, for instance.

In susceptible individuals, a vasovagal reaction may be implicated in fainting without sufficient pressure having been applied. And if you have a preexisting heart condition, there may be a real risk to you. A doctor can do a lot to check out the possible risk factors, and advise you on how to minimize the risk. At the very least, your partner should know first aid, and ideally you would want to have a manual ventilator and a chest compression machine available just in case something goes wrong. The latter is expensive, but well worth it, not just for play, but in case you ever need to do CPR for any reason.

Upon shutting down arterial blood flow, it takes about 10-15 seconds until loss of consciousness occurs, although the person may be able to stay awake, or wake back up, due to strong external stimuli for 2-3 times this length, judging from a report by a doctor that supervised a beheading and tried to find out how long the head could be made to respond.

I've fainted once from low blood pressure (supine BP of 50 systole, 30 diastole; 60 bpm), and remember that distinct feeling that tells you that your brain is not getting the oxygenated blood it needs, the peculiar effect on the hearing and the constricting of the vision, then the brown-out, and subsequently a brief complex seizure involving a "loop" of the last movements I made and some word salad coming out. If any of this seems familiar, he was squeezing hard enough to restrict blood flow, in the wrong place for breath play. Time to reread those anatomy books.

Passing out from the lack of oxygen is, from what I've been told, associated with cramping/seizures as well, but with an earlier onset; that's just from a diver I know, though. Better check that with a doctor, and again deal with the risks as well as you can.

In most cases, compressing the carotid artery is less risky than choking someone into unconsciousness, according to the sources I've read. This is why it is preferred in some types of wrestling, and one of the reasons why law enforcement officers prefer this to a regular choke (the other being, obviously, that a regular choke takes minutes, not seconds).

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RE: Passing Out - 4/6/2007 7:36:08 AM   
madcatlady


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another side affect of neck compression ive found is that all the small blood vessels in my face break...........not very attractive........i no longer do neck compression and keep my breath play to just that, control of breath no neck compression

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RE: Passing Out - 4/6/2007 9:58:14 AM   
Aswad


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madcatlady,

Sticking to conscious breath control seems like the safer alternative, yes. I'd still recommend considering a manual ventilator and a chest compression unit, though, on the off chance that you end up triggering some latent heart problem. CPR is rarely successful by itself.

As for breaking blood vessels, that kind of indicates to me that you've been applying a lot of pressure. Putting the pressure in just the right spot should make this less of an issue, although I'd list burst blood vessels as one of the least important concerns during breath play.

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RE: Passing Out - 4/6/2007 10:42:53 AM   
DreamyLadySnow


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As a nice doctor told me recently, once a person reaches a certain age (mid-30s) there is a damm good chance there is plaque in their arteries. Using fingers to contract these arteries (even if that is not your intent, it happens) can dislodge a piece which will then travel to the brain and potentially kill them.


Have fun if you still want to do it.

LS

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RE: Passing Out - 4/6/2007 9:23:53 PM   
Aswad


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I think you're directing your post at the wrong person. :P

I'm not into breath play or arterial compression. But some of the posters apparently are, which is their choice, as far as I'm concerned. I merely suggested that more advanced CPR equipment would be in order. Obviously, risk is going to be involved anyway, perhaps even with voluntary breat control (that is, no externally applied control), but whether it is an acceptable risk isn't for me to say. I've done worse in my younger years, but I'm very conscious about risk management and risk avoidance these days.

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