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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" military policy


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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/18/2007 9:45:28 AM   
domiguy


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Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

" the looking for dates"... was a passing example of what a reason could be for making an issue out of one's sexuality.  So don't loose any sleep over it.
 
I see no reason why the don't ask, don't tell premise is offensive.  The ONLY way one would know then is if the person was "caught with their pants down".. and that would be wrong for either sexuality-  do they come to fuck or fight? my questions is: WHY DO WE NEED TO KNOW?
 
They ask one religion so they know how to bury you.  They ask blood type so they know what to transfuse if needed.  Make sense?  and they need to know your sexuality for......?




It's a well documented fact that "queer bullets" don't have the killing power as straight ones.

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/20/2007 5:42:18 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong


Did you know that Rome actually outlawed homosexuality because it was so prevalent the population was decreasing? I saw that on the history of Rome one night. (just a tidbit that has nothing to do with this topic other than Michael's mention of Rome that brought it to mind)


What?!

I'm an ancient historian and I study gender and sexuality -- I have never heard of such a law.

You sure this was a Roman law or was it a Christian law? They aren't the same even if Christianity did later become the dominant religion in the empire. I suppose a pop history show might misunderstand some of what Augustus did but he didn't outlaw homosexuality, just encourage marriage and provide financial and political penalties for those who didn't get married by a certain age.

Romans had laws about appropriate sexuality but it wasn't based on just the sex or genders of those involved, it was far more complicated than that.


It was a statement made in the program.  I'm researching it on the web to see if I can find the exact quote.  What struck me about the comment was "Rome???? Good 'oL tolerant, hedonistic ROME????  I don't believe it was a religious call.. it was political.

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/21/2007 10:34:36 PM   
LadyAnnabelleLee


Posts: 180
Joined: 2/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: somethndif

I thought some of you who are opposed to discrimination against gays might be interested in this video available on Youtube opposing the U.S. policy of "don't ask, don't tell," which has resulted in thousands of otherwise qualified service members being separated from the service because of their sexual orientation.  It is quite well done.

And for those to whom it matters, I did 3 years regular Army, honorable discharge, and I am straight, not gay.  I just don't like senseless discrimination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQDP0_Y3UmU

Dan


Coming from a military background (Army born and bred), and having spoken with recruiters, officers and enlisted on this particular topic I can tell you why the Army does it. At least according to the people I've spoken with.

And the reason is thus: it makes people feel less masculine and less secure about themselves. I don't know about you but its hard for me to shoot someone when I'm worried that my female soldier buddy wants to go down on me. (JOKE!) However, if you think about it you'll fight harder for your piece of meat then your buddy. Just my two cents.

I personally think that it shouldn't matter, but it does.

_____________________________

It is the loud few that speak for the quiet many. ~Me

And neither the angels in heaven above,
Nor the demons down under the sea,
Can ever dissever my soul from the soul
Of the beautiful Annabel Lee.
~An excerpt from "Annabel Lee" by Edgar A

(in reply to somethndif)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/21/2007 10:50:59 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

Hets and gays alike should refrain from making  their sexual orientation an issue.


So hets should stop wearing wedding rings 24/7? Announcing their engagements in the paper?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/21/2007 10:54:39 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

" the looking for dates"... was a passing example of what a reason could be for making an issue out of one's sexuality. So don't loose any sleep over it.

I see no reason why the don't ask, don't tell premise is offensive. The ONLY way one would know then is if the person was "caught with their pants down".. and that would be wrong for either sexuality- do they come to fuck or fight? my questions is: WHY DO WE NEED TO KNOW?

They ask one religion so they know how to bury you. They ask blood type so they know what to transfuse if needed. Make sense? and they need to know your sexuality for......?




Exactly.

But the fact is, from the people I know who have been in the military, that heterosexuality is discussed and displayed all the time. From jokes to questions about what you did during leave to pictures you carry to the fact that the military addresses the issues of safe sex meaning sex between men and women (or local women).

That someone is het is commonly discussed and displayed. So why shouldn't that be punished as much as displaying or discussing other sexualities?




Well said and thanks for saving me the typing.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/21/2007 10:58:23 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

And the reason is thus: it makes people feel less masculine and less secure about themselves.


What's the antecedent of "it"? Homosexuality? Are you saying it makes gays feel less masculine or that straights serving with gays would feel less masculine?

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 3/21/2007 11:00:15 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to LadyAnnabelleLee)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/21/2007 11:07:50 PM   
sweetnsensual


Posts: 61
Joined: 9/9/2005
Status: offline 		i dont really know where to start...

why do we need to know?  because people shouldn't have to hide who they are just because they want to do something that helps others.  I'm not gay and I know there's no way in hell I'd join any service.  That's just not me.  but if some "queer" or "f----" (I don't like that word so I'm using it in the context opposers would) wants to fight, then let them.  From what I've heard lately, our numbers of willing and able people to fight are dwindling.  If someone wants to serve their country whether they're gay or straight or bisexual or transgendered shouldn't be an issue--that I do agree with.  It shouldn't even be a fucking question on ANYONE'S mind.  But a person should be free to be who they are without fear of reprisals, without fear of being kicked out and being made to stop doing what they truly want to do.  What if a BDSM person was in the Army and they were being kicked out because--to some--their preferences were thought to be "unnatural" just as homosexuality is thought to be. 

Personally, I don't think some guy with a pink feather boa, a tube top and Daisy Duke shorts is going to waltz up to a recruitment officer and effeminitely say, "I'd like to join!"  But if a gay, lesbian or bisexual person DOES want to serve their country, they shouldn't have to be hiding and afraid, not when they're risking their fucking lives for the freedom that protects heteros and their relationships. 

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/21/2007 11:10:22 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

A solider should join to protect a nation.. not look for a date.


<Rolls eyes, bites tongue.>

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/21/2007 11:12:48 PM   
LadyAnnabelleLee


Posts: 180
Joined: 2/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

And the reason is thus: it makes people feel less masculine and less secure about themselves.


What's the antecedent of "it"? Homosexuality? Are you saying it makes gays feel less masculine or that straights serving with gays would feel less masculine?


Yes. That's what I'm saying. According to THE RECRUITER that I spoke with that is the reasoning.

*smells smoke* Am I on fire?

_____________________________

It is the loud few that speak for the quiet many. ~Me

And neither the angels in heaven above,
Nor the demons down under the sea,
Can ever dissever my soul from the soul
Of the beautiful Annabel Lee.
~An excerpt from "Annabel Lee" by Edgar A

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/21/2007 11:18:41 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

*smells smoke* Am I on fire?


Huh?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to LadyAnnabelleLee)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/21/2007 11:22:10 PM   
LadyAnnabelleLee


Posts: 180
Joined: 2/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

*smells smoke* Am I on fire?


Huh?


Smoke. Burning. Flame.

I was making a joke about possibly being flamed.

I guess that means I shouldn't try out for "Last Comic Standing"...

Damn and I had my jokes all prepared. Got a few from domiguy.

_____________________________

It is the loud few that speak for the quiet many. ~Me

And neither the angels in heaven above,
Nor the demons down under the sea,
Can ever dissever my soul from the soul
Of the beautiful Annabel Lee.
~An excerpt from "Annabel Lee" by Edgar A

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/21/2007 11:29:33 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		Sorry to disappoint you! It's late, and I'm a little slow on the uptake.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to LadyAnnabelleLee)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/21/2007 11:34:45 PM   
LadyAnnabelleLee


Posts: 180
Joined: 2/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Sorry to disappoint you! It's late, and I'm a little slow on the uptake.


I have no clue why I'm still awake truth be told. Waiting for something interesting I suppose...

_____________________________

It is the loud few that speak for the quiet many. ~Me

And neither the angels in heaven above,
Nor the demons down under the sea,
Can ever dissever my soul from the soul
Of the beautiful Annabel Lee.
~An excerpt from "Annabel Lee" by Edgar A

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/22/2007 9:13:32 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

So hets should stop wearing wedding rings 24/7? Announcing their engagements in the paper?


Just avert your eyes if it offends you or don't read the newspaper.
 
Women can’t be Catholic Priests or play in the NFL, NHA or the NBA, or advance up the corporate ladder without the assumption of “who did she sleep with to get there”, or a sexually liberated woman is called a whore or slut or accept the harassment and judgment of those that say she has no right to her own body in regards to abortion. 
 
If one wants to wear a wedding ring.. Do it.  It means as much today as those who wear dog collars that aren’t in D/s. 
 
HETEROphobia doesn’t have anymore place in this world than homophobia does.  Live your lives without needing everyone’s approval otherwise you’ll never live your life.
 
Life isn’t fair, it just is.


_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/22/2007 9:28:37 AM   
somethndif


Posts: 136
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
 
Life isn’t fair, it just is.


True enough.  And life in many respects isn't "fair" and never will be.  But that is no justification for institutionalizing unfairness, which is what the POLICY of "don't ask, don't tell" does.

I think we should strive and try to make life as "fair" as we can, and to do what we can to eradicate and eliminate unfair and senseless discrimination. 

Dan 

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/22/2007 5:37:54 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

So hets should stop wearing wedding rings 24/7? Announcing their engagements in the paper?


Just avert your eyes if it offends you or don't read the newspaper.
 
Women can’t be Catholic Priests or play in the NFL, NHA or the NBA, or advance up the corporate ladder without the assumption of “who did she sleep with to get there”, or a sexually liberated woman is called a whore or slut or accept the harassment and judgment of those that say she has no right to her own body in regards to abortion. 
 
If one wants to wear a wedding ring.. Do it.  It means as much today as those who wear dog collars that aren’t in D/s. 
 
HETEROphobia doesn’t have anymore place in this world than homophobia does.  Live your lives without needing everyone’s approval otherwise you’ll never live your life.
 
Life isn’t fair, it just is.


You missed my point, which is that heterosexuals (many of whom I love) unthinkingly make an issue of their sexuality all the time. So it's naive to say that folks shouldn't do so and a huge double-standard to say (as the currently military policy does) that only gays should refrain from being themselves.



_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/22/2007 5:39:59 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: somethndif

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
 
Life isn’t fair, it just is.


True enough.  And life in many respects isn't "fair" and never will be.  But that is no justification for institutionalizing unfairness, which is what the POLICY of "don't ask, don't tell" does.

I think we should strive and try to make life as "fair" as we can, and to do what we can to eradicate and eliminate unfair and senseless discrimination. 

Dan 


Amen.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to somethndif)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/22/2007 5:44:48 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
You missed my point, which is that heterosexuals (many of whom I love) unthinkingly make an issue of their sexuality all the time. So it's naive to say that folks shouldn't do so and a huge double-standard to say (as the currently military policy does) that only gays should refrain from being themselves.


Let's discuss your comment here.  What would "being themsleves" entail?  What do you think might be distracting or unacceptable to the military?

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/22/2007 6:50:59 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		I know what you are saying, dc.  Many of the straight military guys
strut about talking about their sexual conquests.  They exaggerate
the whole macho stereotype and make a sport out of pursuing women.


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
You missed my point, which is that heterosexuals (many of whom I love) unthinkingly make an issue of their sexuality all the time. So it's naive to say that folks shouldn't do so and a huge double-standard to say (as the currently military policy does) that only gays should refrain from being themselves.


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/22/2007 6:55:27 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

What would "being themsleves" entail? 


-- Being asked who a CARE package or letter is from and saying "my boyfriend."

-- Holding hands on a date (off the base).

-- Answering honestly if someone asks, "So do you have a girlfriend back home?"

-- Ditto if someone asks, "Are you married?"

-- Not feeling you have to pretend to ogle the WACs.

-- Explaining that one of the reasons you support a given candidate is because s/he supports gay rights.



_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 40
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