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RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? - 6/19/2007 5:57:17 PM

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My girl would be sickened if we carried on as equals. It's correct that we are equals in areas of basic human functionality needs, however, I am the one in charge and my needs come first. She as my submissive bends her will to meet my needs and demands. In that sense, we are NOT equal. The point of D/s, M/s is precisely that. What you describe is a vanilla /egalitarian relationship, not D/s, M/s.

< Message edited by Danka1888 -- 6/19/2007 5:59:14 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? - 6/19/2007 7:22:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

The nature of the world is to find balance in all things... without balance life is not what it should be. I find it interesting that you seek something one sided and imbalanced, but not all see life this way.

A parasite also seeks to live off the energy of another while they live and breathe without contributing anything back in the form of energy exchange that is meaningful to both. A predator seeks to take the life of their prey in order to acquire the lifeforce energy... a symbiotic relationship is one in which each creature derives what is necessary for its survival... it all depends on what sort of relationship one prefers... if a true submissive is as you describe... I would not desire to be one, but alas, I do not let others but my Daddy define me.. so its all good.

Interesting musings, Julia.

From blood-sucking lampreys to the lioness stalking her prey! There is indeed much to be gleaned from reflecting upon these systems inherent in nature, which tends to make me question somewhat your take on "the nature of the world."

Balance maintained through inequality, harsh discipline and cruelty is not a novel concept to nature or humanity, I might add. And it is not without irony that through dominance there can be found harmony, and through the sacredness of everything the worth of nothing.

Of course, we could always get back to discussing submission, and leave the wisdom of Pocahontas to all the colors of the wind.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? - 6/19/2007 8:27:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Danka1888

My girl would be sickened if we carried on as equals. It's correct that we are equals in areas of basic human functionality needs, however, I am the one in charge and my needs come first. She as my submissive bends her will to meet my needs and demands. In that sense, we are NOT equal. The point of D/s, M/s is precisely that. What you describe is a vanilla /egalitarian relationship, not D/s, M/s.

Danka... yours is not the only way in which people exchange power, nor is it the most valid way, it is only one way...

My Daddy and I do not even ponder equality.. that is like pondering what is superior.. hot or cold, soft or hard, wet or dry... also unless everyone gets their needs met there will probably be no relationship, whether one has a martyr fetish or not, and I do not see it as inherently submissive to sacrifice my happiness, satisfaction in life, nor my passion to live in order to be a submissive... it really is not all about him, it is all about us because there is no Ds without both of us...

Now I find it higly amusing that you act as though I have judged your relationship when in fact you are purporting to have The One True Way....very amusing indeed.

So while I respect your right to define your relationship in any way shape or form you like... I do not have to accept you defining mine.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Danka1888)

RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? - 6/19/2007 8:51:49 PM

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Thank you Captain Obvious. Glad to know your super powers have not failed you. Your mission here is complete. On your way home please make a stop at the store because they're having a special on common sense. I think you should pick it up. Go back to your vanilla boyfriend once you bought at least an once of it.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? - 6/19/2007 8:56:08 PM

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deleted because some people are not worth it

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/19/2007 8:59:37 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Danka1888)

RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? - 6/23/2007 11:10:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Danka1888

My girl would be sickened if we carried on as equals. It's correct that we are equals in areas of basic human functionality needs, however, I am the one in charge and my needs come first. She as my submissive bends her will to meet my needs and demands. In that sense, we are NOT equal. The point of D/s, M/s is precisely that. What you describe is a vanilla /egalitarian relationship, not D/s, M/s.

I have to agree with Danka.
How can you have an egalitarian relationship in a D/s setting?

(in reply to Danka1888)

RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? - 6/23/2007 11:53:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryMercurial

How can you have an egalitarian relationship in a D/s setting?

Depends on how one describes things, really.

I tend to follow the principles and philosophy of Taoism.

There are things that I do in life, one of which being running the show, which come naturally to my personality.

There are things that the one I am with does in life, one of which is being run as the show, which come naturally to her personality.

Let me give you an example. I buy a house near a lake and start building a cabin, but I need a septic tank dug. I contact somebody who knows what they are doing with septic tank digging. They know more about digging a septic tank, but are they Dominant in the relationship? Im the one who wants and needs something from them.

I imagine if I stopped providing the septic tank digger with what they need (i.e. a paycheck) they would stop doing for me what I need them to do. If I do not give my submissive what she needs, odds are fairly good I will not have a submissive. Similarly, if my submissive does not give me what I need, odds are fairly good she will not have a Dominant. The one I am with does not want to run the show. While I oftentimes wonder what it would be like to not run the show, I seem to always end up doing it. Does this make us unequal in the relationship? I dont know. I doubt it.

When I studied Taoism initially when I was 23 it was pointed out to me that Yin and Yang are not in conflict. They complement each other, and could not exist without the other.

D/s, to me, is a Yin/Yang dichotomoy.

Sinergy

< Message edited by Sinergy -- 6/23/2007 11:54:35 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to VeryMercurial)

RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? - 6/24/2007 7:28:25 AM

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It is a rather true statement to say that all things have an opposite, however you are confusing that with all things being equal. it is not true that all things and their polar opposites are equal. For example. Strong and Weak. How is strong equal to weak? I see they are opposites and compliment one another but how is strong equal to weak.

I am a boss at work. Boss/employee. Opposites. My employees do not have equal power to me even though they "employee" are a polar opposite of me "boss" at work.

And for that matter how is calm equal to explosive, full equal to hungry, intelligent equal to unintelligent, beautiful equal to pretty, lie equal to truth?

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? - 6/24/2007 7:50:26 AM

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I think of a "bottom" as a term we hear more often in the Leather community, and mainly only used during a negotiated scene. Top and bottom are the roles we play in a scene, and yes, as a bottom...more often than not we are calling the shots, only because to me..most of the time the term bottom is used..you are playing with someone you arent in a commited relationship with so there is discussion before hand about what can and cant happen, what we would like to have happen, and what we really dont want to have happen. I take the bottom role in every scene I am in, thats just me, and who I am. Thats what I enjoy, thats why Im there...when im at a party to get into a scene, im there cause I want to get beat on, tied up, whatever im in the mood for. Not really interested in getting someone to Dominate me....I just enjoy getting beat on, and it just so happens that I found someone at an event who enjoys doing the beating, we talk, turns out we enjoy the opposite ends of the same toys..talk a bit more..determine all the details...we play..we both had fun..scene is over..we go home.

Now, when playing with my Sir, not always any negotiation, sometimes he does things I enjoy without me saying to do them, cause we've been together so long that he knows what I like, sometimes, he does something he feels like trying without asking me about it first, at that point im submitting to him because i choose to, whether I enjoy the feeling of whatever he's doing doesnt matter...what i get out of it is the joy of submitting to him. I choose to submit to him because of the connection we have, I may not spend my entire life as a dormat, we talk about what I enjoyed, what I hated, whether or not I had a problem with a scene, or with a general aspect of daily life, then its his job to decide where to go from there. He may continue to do something he lies even though I dont, or he may never do it again. Its up to him and I trust his decisions to be the best ones for me. But even though we discuss our feelings, I tell him if I like something or not, doesnt make me any less submissive. Im not going to submit to someone unless Im enjoying it..and anyone who says they want to give up all control, and stay in a relationship where the Dom never does anything they enjoy is just silly to me. *personal opinion* I don;t think that makes me any less of a submissive, I submit to one, but yes...I consented to that submission, so maybe I am still in control in a way...if our relationship ever got to the point where nothing made me happy..I wouldnt stick around and be miserable. I enjoy submitting to him, and I hope he would say that he enjoys being my Sir.

ghita amati

(in reply to privatelyseeking)

RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? - 6/24/2007 8:14:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimbo747

It is a rather true statement to say that all things have an opposite, however you are confusing that with all things being equal. it is not true that all things and their polar opposites are equal. For example. Strong and Weak. How is strong equal to weak? I see they are opposites and compliment one another but how is strong equal to weak.

One cannot exist without the other... although I would ask you a question, do you really believe that submissive is inherently "less than" dominant? Just asking.

quote:

I am a boss at work. Boss/employee. Opposites. My employees do not have equal power to me even though they "employee" are a polar opposite of me "boss" at work.

You know what is kinda amusing about this analogy... I have a boss, I watch her run around all day working her ass off, so-called in charge of things. Her employees (not me, I am not foolish enough to talk trash about my boss) talk shit all day about her, they dislike her, and I always think of how she puts in hours she does not get paid for, always has to have her cell on, and she does not make very good money. Surely she has a "title", but my experience is that being "boss" is not a superior place to be. Its all about where one finds satisfaction, and I tend to do well as the lone wolf or a subordinate. I find nothing inherently satisfying about running the show, and tend to avoid that position even though others cast me in that role (even that boss I mentioned).

quote:

And for that matter how is calm equal to explosive, full equal to hungry, intelligent equal to unintelligent, beautiful equal to pretty, lie equal to truth?

How does it work to compare a submissive to a lie?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to jimbo747)

RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? - 6/24/2007 8:38:27 AM

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"do you really believe that submissive is inherently "less than" dominant?"

In what way do you mean "less than"?

I do not mean to infer that the unequal measure of power between dominant and submissive renders the submissive "less than" a human being from the dominant. Have pride in yourself as a submissive. I do. The inequality between us and our doms makes us submissives no less a person. Yet that is the very fiber that separates vanilla egalitarian from Dominant/submissive. If you are submitting to someone who is your equal in power and authority, that is egalitarian. How does your relationship differ from vanilla/egalitarian since you and he are equals too?

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? - 6/24/2007 8:44:07 AM

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"but my experience is that being "boss" is not a superior place to be. "

You are subservient to her and you serve her and the company under her authority. subordinate-you. Opposite: Superior-her. Your Boss.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? - 6/24/2007 8:47:52 AM

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"How does it work to compare a submissive to a lie?"

You cant seem to tie it all in together. Let me help. I was describing opposites which are unequal. Her point was that submissives and dominants are equal because they are opposites. True, they are opposites, but not all opposites are equal -my point.

< Message edited by jimbo747 -- 6/24/2007 8:48:55 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? - 6/24/2007 9:42:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimbo747

"do you really believe that submissive is inherently "less than" dominant?"

In what way do you mean "less than"?

I do not mean to infer that the unequal measure of power between dominant and submissive renders the submissive "less than" a human being from the dominant. Have pride in yourself as a submissive. I do. The inequality between us and our doms makes us submissives no less a person. Yet that is the very fiber that separates vanilla egalitarian from Dominant/submissive. If you are submitting to someone who is your equal in power and authority, that is egalitarian. How does your relationship differ from vanilla/egalitarian since you and he are equals too?

I did not use the term "egalitarian" or "equal". It has nothing to do with Ds for me and is a false dichotomy in our relationship.. it is like asking what is better, strawberry or blueberry... it just is not a paradigm I choose to look at our relationship in...

quote:

You are subservient to her and you serve her and the company under her authority. subordinate-you. Opposite: Superior-her. Your Boss.

I do not serve her, I serve my own interests, which is to collect a paycheck. I am her superior in many ways. I am more educated, I am more intelligent, I am more wise (I would not do her job because they do not offer enough compensation to be on call constantly, and I could apply for the position under her anytime I like for a pitance more per hour for a title... which is laughable to me). I pity her because she is a poor boss which only inspires disrespect from those who work under her. We all serve a function where I work, without the Indians the Chief has no tribe.

quote:

You cant seem to tie it all in together. Let me help. I was describing opposites which are unequal. Her point was that submissives and dominants are equal because they are opposites. True, they are opposites, but not all opposites are equal -my point.

If one takes an IQ test there are little logic problems that go like this

hat is to head like glove is to hand.

In your comparison:

Submissive is to dominant like truth is to lie

In my comparison:

Submissive is to dominant as soft is to hard...

Now perhaps I am very technical in how I see comparing things logically...but I will take on your comparisons of inequalities about lies and truth...

Lies are sometimes superior to truth, here is an example of lies serving one better than truth:

An obscene phone caller demands to know if I am alone or not, should I tell him the truth or lie? What is the superior action?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to jimbo747)

RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? - 6/24/2007 9:58:51 AM

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In order to understand how strong equals weak, how full equals hunger, ad naseum, ad infinitum, one would have to have a basic understanding of Taoism. If one does not understand Taoism, one will not grasp the point.

The arguments used against the explanations of your belief system are not effective when trying to frame them to Taoism, although their arguments make sense to themselves. It is a lack of knowledge of the secondary subject matter (Taoism). Until those who argue choose to seek greater knowledge, until they try to understand what you are saying, they will not grasp the nature of your belief and will continue to argue ineffectively against that which they do not understand..

Which is another example of perfect yin to yang. ~smiling~

Be well.

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? - 6/24/2007 12:43:38 PM

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I tend to agree with you slavish....smiles.

I just wanted to point out one way in which I do not agree with you, that all opposites are not "equal" or "unequal", but opposites do tend to define each other.

I have studied a concept of binary opposition, which is basically seeing the world in black or white, it is a cultural anthropological concept and a psychological concept... many people tend to see the world this way, which in some ways is very linear... good bad, day night, either-or. What this worldview tends not to address is the shades of gray between extremes and how those shades of gray connect what seems to be in opposition.

Taoism teaches a concept of non-resistance. That which one resist they make more powerful... my Daddy has taught me a lot about these concepts when it comes to his discussions of martial arts and sparring. If one takes a "stand" to receive a blow instead of moving in relation to the blow, they will be hit harder... it is just an example of how what we resist hits us harder....

How does this relate to Ds? I do not know that it does to be honest. But I will say that in my understanding of what Ds is it is basically that I obey him, that he makes decisions for me if he wants to, that I defer to him, that I submit to his will. This pleases both of us, we both have our needs met. It is not that his needs are of more importance, it is just that we compliment each other in what we need from each other.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/24/2007 12:44:10 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to slaveish)

RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? - 6/26/2007 6:35:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveish

In order to understand how strong equals weak, how full equals hunger, ad naseum, ad infinitum, one would have to have a basic understanding of Taoism. If one does not understand Taoism, one will not grasp the point.

Since all things in life, according to the Tao, are impermanent and have no abiding reality, is not the very concepts, analogies, ideas and understandings of the Tao with which you identify empty as well?

(in reply to slaveish)

RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? - 6/26/2007 6:52:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryMercurial

I have just read several threads that have made me want to ask this question.
Are many submissives really bottoms? I don't see anything wrong with being
a bottom, yet so few online claim that title.
I would like to hear some comments on what people here feel are the differences
between being a submissive and a bottom.
Thanks in advance.

I think really that everyone has their own opinion on labels and titles about who they area and what other people are. What you consider to be a bottom is completely different from what other people think that term means. One of my friends once told me her belief and I feel it has some merit in this discussion to show how different opinions can be about titles.

To her, saying the words "top" or "bottom" in regards to this lifestyle is the same thing as saying "cat" and "dog". They are categories of different animals, but they are still animals none the less. Then saying things like "dom", "domme", "submissive", "slave" are like assigning a specific breed. There's even more on top of that; by calling yourself "pro...", "painslut", "service-orientated", etc. you are talking about a specific variety of that breed. I'm not sure that this works for me but I see her point and I understand where she got the idea from; she's a biology major and has to learn to classify everything!

(in reply to VeryMercurial)

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