Are Spartan's Submissive? (Full Version)

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SimplyMichael -> Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/20/2007 2:20:07 PM)

I watched "The 300" again the other night, not because it is a good movie but because it is so distorted.

I am curious if anyone has watched it and the interaction between King Leonidas and the Queen.  At one point he looks to her before he "decides" to go to war and she nods her head most imperceptably but it is clear she grants him her okay.

There are a couple of other scenes where the power dynamic is interesting and in the woman's favor.  The words alone put him in charge but there is an underlying sense of something very different.

Anyone have any thoughts?



MsKatHouston -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/20/2007 2:45:49 PM)

I haven't seen it myself...I have not heard good things about it.  I'll catch it when it gets to cable :P



mewmew -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/20/2007 3:15:05 PM)

I saw the whole Leonidas/Gorgo relationship as an attempt to win over modern audiences, frankly. They’re in love, and the King respects his wife enough to rely on her judgement when making decisions that will not simply affect them both as rulers, but the the entire city-state as well. Blah blah blah.

Spartan women DID enjoy greater freedoms than their sisters elsewhere in the Greek world, though. And if ya believe Herodotus, Plutarch, and Aristotle, there’s some truth to the outspoken portrayal of Queen Gorgo and her more egalitarian relationship with her husband. While their Athenian counterparts were veiled and stuck at home, Spartan females could live somewhat public lives. They could inherit. They were educated. Their girls could participate in athletics - mixed company athletics, which meant running around nekkid with the boys. *collective Athenian gasp*

This is part of the reason why Helen of Troy was often dismissed as a “Spartan whore” (she was originally a Spartan princess). With an upbringing like hers, how could she NOT run off with/allow herself to be seduced by some dishy Trojan prince? ;)



thetammyjo -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/20/2007 3:17:39 PM)

I'll have to go see it simply because I may have students who have seen it -- thus is my fate as ancient historian.

Spartans are difficult to fully understand because most of our accounts about them come from non-Spartans. They have some artifacts and a few piecing of writing but they do appear to be a very focused military society.

Their Kings are 2 and their roles are military. Spartan women and men reportedly live very separate lives -- that's the ideal in most of the ancient Greek world. Spartan women had important public roles as well as most of the responsibility for the home and any land with it, they may have been far more educated than the men -- this would be very unusual in the ancient Greek world. Other Greeks considered Spartan women to be very powerful but they did not consider Spartan men to be submissive or unmanly. In Greek concepts of gender they would consider Spartans highly masculine -- a good thing in their minds.

Some of our friends saw it and said they didn't mention helots which is odd because I would say that Spartan society was focused on maintaining the helot population and that was a factor in any military or diplomatic decision they would make. For all their heroism, the Spartans really did not want to be involved in the Persian wars and basically came into late though not a dollar short.

However I do not have Herodotus in front of me and I know the comic does directly quote him on several points.

The thing to keep in mind that this is comic book material not history.



stef -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/20/2007 3:24:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I am curious if anyone has watched it and the interaction between King Leonidas and the Queen.  At one point he looks to her before he "decides" to go to war and she nods her head most imperceptably but it is clear she grants him her okay.

Are you sure you weren't just imagining that because you enjoy the thought of someone named Leonidas being under a woman's rule?  [;)]

I haven't seen it yet myself, but I'm hoping to find time this weekend to catch it.

~stef



LadyEllen -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/20/2007 4:26:31 PM)

Havent seen the film and dont know much about Greek or Spartan society etc, but it would seem to fit in with Norse ideas (and maybe then generally Germanic and so English and so a great influence worldwide) for a king to confer with the queen on such a decision; not that the queen necessarily has any say in such matters, but she certainly has influence, and is often the power behind the throne more than any courtier or noble. Its a similar model to that between Odin and Frigga.
E



Rumtiger -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/20/2007 4:37:31 PM)

In the case between Leonidas and Gorgo I would actually have to say yes, but only on the point that she seems to have more of a dominant personality.

And Ms Kat, I find most people who dont like the movie (most people do) are those who just overthink everything and just simply dont enjoy the ride, if you wait for cable all the good parts will be taken out.



DawnFire -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/20/2007 6:51:03 PM)

Hey, I don't know if it was intended.  But I chose to take it that way.  Was a great movie all around anyway - 300 men with minimal clothing, lots of blood, and fun comicbook like action.  Good stuff.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/20/2007 9:09:43 PM)

stef,

The movie is basically a neocon wet dream about the glory of war and plays heavily on all sorts fantasies, both military and sexual.  There is lots of imagery that is right out of the shallowest of male submissive fantasies, slaves with amputed arms and everyone deformed or mutilated in some way.  The male soldiers all look like gay men out of a leather bar and make more than a couple of the sort of gay jokes that are common with homophobic men who don't yet realize they are gay. 

What interests me is why and how they expected this imagery to work and on who.




RPutnamJr -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/20/2007 9:44:34 PM)

You could say the Spartan woman is they type of submissive that I seek.

Yes she submits to his rule, but she also has a mind from which to seek guidance from. After all he basically leaves her in charge to get the army moving while he goes off to fight the Persians with his personal body guard. Thus she has Dominance within her submission. She after all did not submit at the beginning to the Persian emissary when he made the comment on why is she allowed to speak.

Nobody after watching the movie would say the King was weak and nobody would say the the Queen was weak either. The Queen though did have to submit to the men in the Spartan Assembly. Thus she did hold an inferior position overall, despite her rank.

Thus the Gorean comparisons can be made in the fact that she has to submit being a woman yet also holds power in the fact that to non-Spartans she does not necessarily have to submit. After all she says to the Persian emssary that "Only Spartan women give birth to real men." Thus suggesting that he is not a real man. Which further points out the fact that she may have to submit to men, but only real men, thus Spartan men.

She also makes the comment that the only woman's opinion that the King should worry about is hers. Which is in reference to the Oracle's opinion. Then there is also the reference when the King goes off to either come back with his shield victorious or on his shield.

I doubt though anybody would make the conclusion that Spartan men were weak and submissive. After all they are known for their military ability in ancient times. And the Spartan society as a whole was known for their militantcy. Which is highly depected throughout the movie.



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/20/2007 10:03:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I am curious if anyone has watched it and the interaction between King Leonidas and the Queen.  At one point he looks to her before he "decides" to go to war and she nods her head most imperceptably but it is clear she grants him her okay.

There are a couple of other scenes where the power dynamic is interesting and in the woman's favor.  The words alone put him in charge but there is an underlying sense of something very different.
I haven't seen it, but isn't that the way it always is?  [;)] M



frostyslave -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/20/2007 10:50:07 PM)

Holy Jesus on an anal stimulation enhanced pogo stick!  I have to go see 300 now.  Gerard Butler is dddddddrrrrrrreeeeeeaaaaaaammmmmmy.



Vendaval -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/20/2007 11:49:12 PM)

Behind every successful man is his mother, his wife and
2 administrative assistants, keeping his life in order.
 
Either that, or a Domina with her foot up his ass!  [;)]
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I am curious if anyone has watched it and the interaction between King Leonidas and the Queen.  At one point he looks to her before he "decides" to go to war and she nods her head most imperceptably but it is clear she grants him her okay.

There are a couple of other scenes where the power dynamic is interesting and in the woman's favor.  The words alone put him in charge but there is an underlying sense of something very different.
I haven't seen it, but isn't that the way it always is?  [;)] M



Lashra -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/21/2007 5:24:25 AM)

I am sure that some of them were and some of them weren't. Just like in all people we have dominant and submissive traits, one of which is usually stronger than the other.

Many times the power dynamic is in the females favor its just kept quiet for "appearances" sake. I have seen this in many couples and I am not sure why its done but it is.

~Lashra



Rumtiger -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/21/2007 11:06:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
The movie is basically a neocon wet dream about the glory of war and plays heavily on all sorts fantasies, both military and sexual.  There is lots of imagery that is right out of the shallowest of male submissive fantasies, slaves with amputed arms and everyone deformed or mutilated in some way.  The male soldiers all look like gay men out of a leather bar and make more than a couple of the sort of gay jokes that are common with homophobic men who don't yet realize they are gay. 

What interests me is why and how they expected this imagery to work and on who.


You dont realize you answered your own question?



MsKatHouston -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/21/2007 11:13:26 AM)

quote:

And Ms Kat, I find most people who dont like the movie (most people do) are those who just overthink everything and just simply dont enjoy the ride, if you wait for cable all the good parts will be taken out.


Well, I actually meant PPV or HBO or whatnot, not the edited for TV version.  But with the unfolding of this thread, I admit I am more interested in seeing it just so I can talk intelligently about the OP.  I need a slow weekend this weekend, maybe I'll take a gander.  :)

Re overthinking it...I think some movies are touted as the more intellectual types and what disappoints me about those is when you are *supposed* to "overthink" it but the film falls short of your expectations.  Going into a movie, though, with the attitude that you are just going for entertainment's sake, I find I am not neaarly as disappointed if it doesn't deliver on a deeper level.  But if it does, I'm pleasantly surprised.  So, I'll letcha know what I think...and now I have some specifics to look for. 



thompsonx -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/21/2007 11:37:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Behind every successful man is his mother, his wife and
2 administrative assistants, keeping his life in order.
 
Either that, or a Domina with her foot up his ass!  [;)]
 



Vendaval:
I should think a domina could think of something more encouraging  than her foot.[;)]
thompson



thompsonx -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/21/2007 11:40:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I am curious if anyone has watched it and the interaction between King Leonidas and the Queen.  At one point he looks to her before he "decides" to go to war and she nods her head most imperceptably but it is clear she grants him her okay.

There are a couple of other scenes where the power dynamic is interesting and in the woman's favor.  The words alone put him in charge but there is an underlying sense of something very different.
I haven't seen it, but isn't that the way it always is?  [;)] M

M.
One would hope so.[;)]
thompson



littlesarbonn -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/21/2007 12:47:10 PM)

You kind of have to remember that this isn't the "real" Sparta of history that the movie is projecting. It's projecting a Sparta that has been filtered through a comic book first (or graphic novel). There's a famous line from Plutarch that is so completely botched by the comic book that it even attributes the line to the wrong side fighting the war. So, you have to be somewhat in the grain of salt mindset for most of the story that takes place in 300, including interactions between historical figures that don't exactly fit the history as well.



KaramelGoddess -> RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? (3/21/2007 1:49:53 PM)

Mmmhmmm what littlesarbonn said.  And...
 
Not only is it a comic book version, it's the director's perception of that comic book, so there are all sorts of distortions going on.
 
It hasn't reached us here in Bermuda yet as all the local theatres (we only have 4) are running our annual film festival.  I do plan to see it when it does come, so no spoilers please!!!  Thanx,
 
~Kara



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