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RE: The legality of what we do - 4/10/2005 4:54:49 PM   
bumblebee


Posts: 29
Joined: 12/1/2004
Status: offline 		I can't see how sex and bondage would make any criminal code offence. Provided there was consent of course, it should be perfectly legal.

Sex combined with any S&M activity is a bit more of a grey area. Assuming there is informed consent, freely given, by the bottom and an activity resulted in "non trivial" bodily harm there could still possibly be a charge of assault. In some situations consent doesn't matter, in a bar brawl for example, it doesn't matter that both parties consented to punching each other, it will still be cnsidered assault. If the fight were to take place during a hockey game however consent would negate the offence. The reasoning behind this is that sports are a socially valuable activity with rules and accepted risks by the participants. Bar fights on the other hand are not socaially desirable and therefore the courts will not recognize consent. So whether or not S&M play is legal seems to depend on a judge's determination of whether or not it is a socially desirable activity. What we need is a good test case in Canada but I haven't seen one that didn't involve questions of whether consent was actually given.

Criminal negligence could also apply if some harm occured that the Top hadn't intended but ought reasonably to have forseen. If the harm was straight out intentional it would be assault or assault causing bodily harm depending on the severity of injuries.

The porn laws related to BDSM are very conservative. Anything involving violence, degredation etc. are legally obscene. The customs agents tend to take a wide view as to what falls in this category. Gay and lesbian materials are often targeted. There was a case in BC where bondage porn was found to be not obscene using a community standard test but that may have been an isolated instance.

I have never heard of any law related to group sex. If one exists I'm pretty sure it would be unconstitutional and not enforceable. I can look it up though.

This is how it should work in theory. How the police choose to apply the law may be another matter entirely.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

So for the last 37 years, this makes all consenting sexual acts between adults in Canada, legal. However, acts ending in severe bodily harm and/or death are illegal, as they would fall under the realm of negligence.



Hmmm, I believed this to be the case as well, LadyAngelika, but now I am not so sure. I've heard that intercourse combined with bondage is actually illegal in Canada, as is, apparently, group sex.
I find this hard to believe, and would definitely like to find out the whole truth about whether we actually do have some ridiculous laws like this around. Not sure how one would go about finding out.
I do know that Canada Customs is huge on censoring anything that tries to make it over the border here in B.C., and we've had some major battles here with little success.

Cin


(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The legality of what we do - 4/10/2005 5:10:29 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bumblebee

I can't see how sex and bondage would make any criminal code offence. Provided there was consent of course, it should be perfectly legal.


I agree, that it shouldn't be illegal, but from what I gather it has to do with the fine line between rape and BDSM. While I would expect that everyone here is clear on the difference, I doubt many of those in a position to make laws are all that clear.
To them, sex with someone who is helpless is rape.


quote:

I have never heard of any law related to group sex. If one exists I'm pretty sure it would be unconstitutional and not enforceable. I can look it up though.


Thanks, I would be interested in what you find out.
Cin

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quote:


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(in reply to bumblebee)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: The legality of what we do - 4/10/2005 5:25:52 PM   
bumblebee


Posts: 29
Joined: 12/1/2004
Status: offline 		I guess it's possible that someone might be charged by an overzealous police officer but if both parties are actually consenting to the activity then no sexual assault has occured. Whether or not the "victim" could have physically resisted if she had wanted to isn't relevent. In any vanilla sexual encounter a small woman may be helpless against a larger, stronger man. That doesn't go to whether or not there was consent which is the key element of a sexual assault.

Simple assault as regards other BDSM activities is another matter as I said above. But for sexualt assault if informed consent is present and both are of age I can't see how it would possibly be sexual assault.

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: The legality of what we do - 4/10/2005 7:35:22 PM   
Vjklander


Posts: 41
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

Regrettably most of what W/we do is probably illegal in many states, simply because the moral majority (apparently that's not us..lol) deems it necessary to protect us from ourselves. size]


Actually, most of the sex crimes predate the moral majority, but still are based in the Xtian control of politicians. Most BDSM laws such as those discussed above are fairly new and are a product of the flaming left, the feminazis as Rush likes to call them. These laws are on the books because the politicians seem to think abused women are to stupid to decide for themselves whether to arrest/prosecute their abuser.
No wonder I'm a Libertarian. And a Heathen. So there.

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: The legality of what we do - 4/11/2005 4:33:51 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

So for the last 37 years, this makes all consenting sexual acts between adults in Canada, legal. However, acts ending in severe bodily harm and/or death are illegal, as they would fall under the realm of negligence.



Hmmm, I believed this to be the case as well, LadyAngelika, but now I am not so sure. I've heard that intercourse combined with bondage is actually illegal in Canada, as is, apparently, group sex.
I find this hard to believe, and would definitely like to find out the whole truth about whether we actually do have some ridiculous laws like this around. Not sure how one would go about finding out.
I do know that Canada Customs is huge on censoring anything that tries to make it over the border here in B.C., and we've had some major battles here with little success.

Cin


Actually, as of July 2003, thanks to a group of people at the swinger club l'Orage in Montreal, swinging in private is now legal in Canada, with some very progressive parameters. So group sex should no longer really be an issue.

As for the bondage+sex issue, I'd have to look into that. I actually studied Canadian Sex Laws pretty intensely a few years back and I don't recall reading anything on this.

As for censorship battles at the border, yes certain bookstores here have had the same issues.

- LA



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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: The legality of what we do - 4/13/2005 7:05:58 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Actually, as of July 2003, thanks to a group of people at the swinger club l'Orage in Montreal, swinging in private is now legal in Canada, with some very progressive parameters. So group sex should no longer really be an issue.


I went to a play night at a private club in San Diego, CA.

Apparently when they were not rented out by BDSM groups, they are a private swingers
club. The only rule which specifically allowed them to exist was that patrons could not
exchange contact information on the premises.

Bodily fluids ok, phone numbers, no.

Sinergy (searching for a way to encode his phone number in his semen)

_____________________________

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(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: The legality of what we do - 4/13/2005 8:59:13 PM   
lechat


Posts: 57
Joined: 10/19/2004
Status: offline 		the annals of law are filled with archaic laws. in s. carolina it's illegal to beat your wife on the court house steps. spitting on a sidewalk is illegal in many states. don't recomend practicing bdsm on a city street! 'less it's california .lol!



(in reply to bumblebee)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The legality of what we do - 4/14/2005 4:58:20 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

Actually, as of July 2003, thanks to a group of people at the swinger club l'Orage in Montreal, swinging in private is now legal in Canada, with some very progressive parameters. So group sex should no longer really be an issue.


I went to a play night at a private club in San Diego, CA.

Apparently when they were not rented out by BDSM groups, they are a private swingers
club. The only rule which specifically allowed them to exist was that patrons could not
exchange contact information on the premises.

Bodily fluids ok, phone numbers, no.

Sinergy (searching for a way to encode his phone number in his semen)


Yes, it is common for swingers and bdsmers to share spaces here too. I actually poke my nose in on either night.

You can always tattoo your email addie on your ass Sinergy ;)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The legality of what we do - 4/14/2005 3:50:14 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

You can always tattoo your email addie on your ass Sinergy ;)


But at the end of the night my ass goes home with me...

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: The legality of what we do - 4/14/2005 4:08:42 PM   
Voltare


Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline 		The laws in the US vary from state to state (as we all know) though many states have adopted a position that 'consent is not an acceptable defense against assault' for the reasons stated earlier, that in situations when a woman is battered or beaten, the state has the option to press charges on her behalf.

The idea that the government can control or restrict what we do in private, on the other hand, is hardly new. Prostitution is illegal in most of the US (and Canada if I am not mistaken.) Obviously, it is more difficult to prosecute the act if nobody notices or reports it (suppose I offer my girlfriend 50 dollars to sleep with me, unless she calls the cops, it won't really be an issue now.) Laws prohibiting oral sex exist in many states, as do laws against sodomy.

Truth be told, most people don't live in situations where their sexual activities would be monitored. I don't have people cupping their ears to my bedroom to make sure there isn't any abuse going on. I would say, for the most part, the laws are better off to be a bit over protective, then underprotective. Imagine how painful it would be if your daughter was raped and killed by an 'overeager' BDSM enthusiast, but because he showed that she had rape and snuff fantasies that she expressed in a chat room, he doesn't even get a slap on the wrists.

Laws are designed to protect everyone - even if we don't always need or want that protection. I don't like a lot of laws that we have, but I'm the first to admit that they don't upset me enough to actually make an effort at changing them. We can always write our representatives, vote appropriately, and participate in community organizations that help defend our rights to enjoy our lives as we with - so long as we don't hurt anyone in the process.

Stephan

(dusts the soapbox off for the next guy)

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(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The legality of what we do - 4/14/2005 4:33:18 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

You can always tattoo your email addie on your ass Sinergy ;)


But at the end of the night my ass goes home with me...

Sinergy


Then you know the girls you will attract at the very least can memorize an email address ;) It's also a screening process!

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The legality of what we do - 4/14/2005 4:34:13 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Voltare
Prostitution is illegal in most of the US (and Canada if I am not mistaken.) Obviously, it is more difficult to prosecute the act if nobody notices or reports it (suppose I offer my girlfriend 50 dollars to sleep with me, unless she calls the cops, it won't really be an issue now.)


Just a slight correction. Prostitution is not illegal in Canada. However, sollicitation is.

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The legality of what we do - 4/14/2005 9:34:05 PM   
bumblebee


Posts: 29
Joined: 12/1/2004
Status: offline 		Criminal Code Part V

This might be a useful link for those interested.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The legality of what we do - 4/15/2005 5:04:09 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bumblebee

Criminal Code Part V

This might be a useful link for those interested.


Thanks bumblebee - I was actually looking for that link the other day. It has been a few years since I've read through it. I remember taking a sexual politics class and analysing it. My favorite bit was the following:

Anal intercourse
159. (1) Every person who engages in an act of anal intercourse is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years or is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Exception
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to any act engaged in, in private, between

(a) husband and wife, or

(b) any two persons, each of whom is eighteen years of age or more,

both of whom consent to the act.

So anal sex in threesome is technically illegal. Of course, stating that out loud in class made my professor blush. <weg>

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to bumblebee)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The legality of what we do - 4/15/2005 9:18:02 PM   
bumblebee


Posts: 29
Joined: 12/1/2004
Status: offline 		You're welcome.

I'm almost certain that those type of provisions wouldn't stand up to any type of constitutional challenge. They are so rarely if ever enforced that they haven't had the chance to be struck down. I suppose their is always the risk of police using them while they are still on the books. And who want's to go through the ordeal?

I love the the way a public space is defined in the annotations. A locked bathroom stall is public but a hockey rink after hours is private. Only in Canada do we have case law built on situations of people having anal sex at an ice rink.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The legality of what we do - 4/16/2005 12:12:23 AM   
slavedesires


Posts: 669
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		i think this only applies to masochists and sadists......

personally i hate toys and gadgets that hurt me... but His hand slapping away at my ass never seemed to bother the neightbors!!

and i certainly have had no knock at the door for my cumslut/cockwhore ways.

i know of nurses in ER's that have had to deal with ass whippings, body beatings, "abused" breasts casue play was far too intense.
But IMHO, NOT being a masochist, all sadists who do those things should be hung from their deepfried balls! right along with their masochists fromtheir nipple clamps

OUCH!!

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The legality of what we do - 4/16/2005 12:15:49 AM   
MsMacComb


Posts: 808
Joined: 3/30/2005
From: My Mothers womb.
Status: offline 		This may help.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2269/?200510?200516

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RE: The legality of what we do - 4/19/2005 1:30:23 PM   
Voltare


Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


quote:

ORIGINAL: Voltare
Prostitution is illegal in most of the US (and Canada if I am not mistaken.) Obviously, it is more difficult to prosecute the act if nobody notices or reports it (suppose I offer my girlfriend 50 dollars to sleep with me, unless she calls the cops, it won't really be an issue now.)


Just a slight correction. Prostitution is not illegal in Canada. However, sollicitation is.

- LA



Thank you for the correction. I'm not extremely well versed in Canadian law, and now that I live in the other hemisphere, I don't have much contact with the 'northern neighbors' anymore.

As to the other matter i.e. the law with the strange exceptions.... often times, 'supporting laws' are used as additional means to punish criminals. For example, murder is against the law. If I kill someone with a gun, I could possibly be found innocent of 'murder' but still be convicted (or initially arrested) with illegal discharging of a firearm within city streets. Murder is much harder of a crime to prosecute, much more expensive, and much easier to fight then the more obvious 'I fired my gun within the city limits.' Sexual assualt crimes often overlap each other for the same reason - a woman who is raped, and sodomy is part of the act, has several laws on her side, not just one. Rape, battery, assault, sexual misconduct, etc etc (of course depending on your state or province.)

Stephan


_____________________________

http://www.vv3b.com/

"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The legality of what we do - 4/19/2005 1:36:10 PM   
ManOwner


Posts: 127
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline 		In 2003 the United States Supreme Court ruled that laws restricting "sodomy" - which includes such acts as oral, anal, and homosexual sex - are unconstitutional. The title of the case is Lawrence v. Texas

(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The legality of what we do - 4/19/2005 3:34:18 PM   
ansfrid


Posts: 24
Joined: 3/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Actually, as of July 2003, thanks to a group of people at the swinger club l'Orage in Montreal, swinging in private is now legal in Canada, with some very progressive parameters. So group sex should no longer really be an issue.


Actually, this is, as we speak, going though the courts. L'orage was actually convicted of running a bawdy house, they are presently seeking to overturn that conviction.

I'm also fairly certain that physical abuse cannot be conscented to in Canada. Pierre Trudeau's words were a good sentiment, but to general for law. He got rid of any issues with homosexuality, but I still don't think there is legally any such thing as conscensual abuse...however I am sketchy on the details.

Personally....I think there is merit to keeping bdsm borderline illegal, but tolerated. It can never be allowed to be an excuse for actual harmful physical or sexual abuse. bdsm is done in settings to private to substatiate any allegations of wrongdoing with anything more than the spoken word (usually). I realize it can be used as a rallying cause for opponents of bdsm on the moral level, which does make me nervous, but I would rather that, than to have it be legal, and then serve as an umbrella of obscurity for more systemic cases of abuse.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 40
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