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What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 10:41:31 AM   
FirmhandKY


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Question:

What do you consider an "acceptable" monetary cost for saving a life?

Discussion:

In emotional terms, for someone we love, I know that there is no value to a life.

But, when it comes to making decisions about the allocation of finanical resources, especially in public funds, these type of decisions are made all the time.

For example, you could reduce the number of bathroom slipping deaths each year by requiring all kinds of safety equipment in each and every bathroom in the country.

But then, you'll incur costs.  The cost to individual people to purchase and install all the newly required equipment.  You'll have to spend money as a government in passing the law, getting it published ... and then there is the enforcement costs that will never end.

Can you see it?  A national "Bathroom Slippage Police" (BSP).  An entire "War on Bathroom Deaths!" even.  All new homes and facilities must submit plans, and have inspections.  Monthly followup inspections to determine if there is any wear to the safety features.  People who violate the law must be charged, and sent to prison: more costs to the publicly funded legal system, and then additional public funds to incarerate convicted offenders.

Then there would be the cost of the parole system, maybe with house arrest, and the cost of anklet bracklets and monitors.

You'd have to have public safety campaigns to publicize the programs .....

You would have direct costs (the cost of enforcement, and running the "war") and you would have indirect costs (money spent on "bathroom lawyers", money spent on all the required equipment, etc) taken out of the economy.

In the end, perhaps you could save 100 lives a year.

Ok, take the total direct costs, and the total indirect costs, divide it by the number of lives saved, and you'll end up with the cost of a life.

This is done all the time in public policy, although rarely discussed (because ... "you can't put a price on someone's life" ...).  But you can.  And it is done every time a budget is passed, or a new law is considered.

So ...

What do you consider an "acceptable" monetary cost for saving a life?

$50?
$500,000?
$1,000,000?
$10,000,000?

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 3/27/2007 10:45:47 AM >


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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 10:47:22 AM   
Real0ne


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i think bush capped it at 250,000 in death as a result of malpractice


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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 11:01:08 AM   
FirmhandKY


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One example:

THE FINANCIAL COSTS OF TOXICS IN THE DRINKING WATER SUPPLY

 In its original 2001 proposal the EPA said reducing the arsenic level to 10 ppb would affect about 4,100 water systems serving some 13 million people. These systems would have to spend $180 million annually to implement the standard.

And what would be the benefit? EPA claimed that the rule would prevent from 20 to 30 deaths from lung and bladder cancer each year. But some epidemiologists say the standard could save 10 times as many lives. So we have a range of 20 to 300 deaths prevented.

So that is about 6 million dollars to save a life. Is that too much?



And a more detailed source, if you are interested:

Using Economics To Save Lives.

FirmKY


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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 11:05:17 AM   
ferryman777


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You may scoff at a bathroom slipage law....Arnold passed a law banning the sale and manufacture of Light Blubs as we know it; in lieu of our current light blubs, the requirement is to sell and only manufacture the new, econo blub.

So what, you say.....it's just a light blub;.....A law was passed to prohibit a product from being sold, or manufactured....not like a GUN; or some hazard type of product; but a common consumer, everyday use type of thing.....; now this is the beginning, free enterprise, no...... pure fascism.

Okay, to calculate the 'Cost of A Life'...what is a life worth...no need to speculate; just find the value cost of the usable organs of your body. Every organ comes with a price tag.

Now, should you donate your organ/s you are fucking yourself. The actual cost of a life, is the resale value of your organs...what hospitals charge the reciepiants.

Emotion has no bearing on death, no matter who, it is all, ALL about money.

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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 11:07:48 AM   
Stephann


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Greetings Firm,

There's an element missing from your question that is also missing from public policy decision making; the value of risk.

In choosing not to install appropriate safety devices in my bathroom (handles near toilet, sticky floors, etc) I incur a risk of myself or another in being hurt in that bathroom.  Granted, it is their choice to use my bathroom, so they incur a measure of responsibility too, but the fact is that in not having certain safety equipment, I assume the risk for pain, suffering, and medical expenses.  This extends to seatbelts and child safety locks, rails on bridges, and safetys on guns.  Ultimately, somebody pays for these common devices and improvements.  Ultimately, if I choose to have a car without seatbelts, I am the one assuming the risk for that.

Such laws are already in place; building codes are rather clear, currently, as to types of materials, dimensions, and other technical data intended to ensure that housing conforms to 'minimal' safety standards.  These standards are usually supported by studies, and further influenced by lobbyists (the minimum drinking age at 21, being a good example.) 

So the question really isn't 'what is a human's life worth.'  It's "what is the monetary value of the risk we take, in living a 'normal' life?"

Stephan


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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 11:24:34 AM   
FirmhandKY


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You are correct Stephann.  Economically, and in Risk Analysis, it's called a cost-benefit analysis..

We makes those decisions everyday, although we don't recognize them as that.

Is crossing the road in the middle of the block "worth the risk" or will you walk down to the corner where the walkway and stop lights are?  What is the possible benefit from taking the risk of jaywalking in the middle of the block?

FirmKY


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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 11:55:27 AM   
LadyEllen


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Well Stephann, in the UK you as the householder would be sued, should a visitor suffer an injury in your dangerous bathroom, regardless of whether you had made them aware of the perils. There is a duty of care - even if its a burglar who trips in the dark because you didnt replace your lightbulb, you are liable as the householder. Neat eh?

What is the cost of a life? Enormous and calculable only if we were to add up every cost that went towards that life; food, eduation, medical treatments etc etc

But this cost is not the same as the value of a life, and neither does it have any correlation with it. In an idealistic way, we would say that the value of every life is the same, and its beyond any price. But in the real world, this simply isnt so.

An example from the UK. The National Health Service is short of resources, so these have to be rationed, and decisions on whom to treat and how are reached on the basis of indicators such as how old is the patient - (how long will he live?). This isnt only in relation to those who might be expected to perish naturally within a short time, but also applied to those in their 50s. The idea being, what is the benefit of treatment? A cost/benefit analysis which clearly makes some lives worth more than others.

A cynic might suppose that the reason for this discrimination was purely financial, in that a younger patient with a longer life in front of them will raise more tax revenues than an older person who has little more to contribute in tax years, having already paid much of the tax they would ever have paid. This of course, regardless that the older person already paid in advance in effect, for the treatment they now need.

This is an understandable method by which to discriminate if one is an accountant, and if one is talking about machinery that is reaching the end of its life and not worth repair. Except that these are not machines, but people.

So, whats a life worth? Well, taking a cynical view based on the above, assuming a 50 year working life (since retirement age is rising all the time) and that the average wage is £25k per annum, of which approximately half is paid out in taxes of one form or another, then the life of a 20 year old is worth £625,000-00, whilst the life of a person aged 50 with 20 tax years remaining is £250,000-00. 

E

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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 12:07:57 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

then the life of a 20 year old is worth £625,000-00, whilst the life of a person aged 50 with 20 tax years remaining is £250,000-00.


Thank you, E.

1 British £ = 1.9664 US $

1 US $ = .5085 £

20 year old: £625,000 = $1,228,998

50 year old: £250,000 = $ 491,599

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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 12:20:58 PM   
imtempting


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It depends on the situation too. Een medical. Well the govt spend $2 million on a machine to save 4 people a year? highly unlikely.

but if its $4 million to save 60 000 people a year they would say yes.

So the amount of people that could be saved is also another factor.

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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 12:36:36 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Whispers: (That's why you divide the cost by the number of people's whose lives are/would be saved, intemp.)  

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 3/27/2007 12:38:15 PM >

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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 12:40:44 PM   
imtempting


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Whispers: (That's why you divide the cost by the number of people's whose lives are/would be saved, intemp.)  


To make an educated comment we need to do more then 4 minutes of research.

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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 12:43:44 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: imtempting

It depends on the situation too. Een medical. Well the govt spend $2 million on a machine to save 4 people a year? highly unlikely.

but if its $4 million to save 60 000 people a year they would say yes.


So you give a range:

Too High a Price for a Life: $2,000,000 / 4 = $500,000 per life

Acceptable Price of a Life: $4,000,000 / 60,000 =  $66.67 per life

I take it that somewhere in between these two numbers ($500,000 and $67) is your  acceptable cost of a human life?

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 3/27/2007 12:44:23 PM >


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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 12:53:52 PM   
Seatonstomb


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George Bush, Tony Blair and Most American and British Politicians would not give a brass farthing to save. Same with Sportsmen, TV stars, Industrialists and Clergy. Now would consider others on a varying skale

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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 12:56:36 PM   
Stephann


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The real issue of the cost of life, is the burden of 'who pays for it.'  We don't have an inherent right to be given long lives; we have an inherent right to pursue a long life.  The state has demonstrated, time and again, it is the body least capable of managing large somes of money.  Thus, when we expect the state to invest a billion dollars to save lives, it's not 'free' or 'funny' money - one billion dollars means every single man woman and child in the US has to chip in three dollars (and change.)  The sheer number of zeroes in any task can confuse those who are actually paying the price.

It's worth it to pay 65 dollars, to save my life, another 65 for my son.  I'm not willing to chip in 65 dollars times a hundred, to save people who don't chip their own 65 in.  So the real question becomes "who wants to be responsible.'  Again, we've shown on a regular basis that because we cannot understand what a billion dollars really means, we would gladly spend it, even if we don't bother dropping pennies in the disabled children's jar at the register.  Go figure.

Ellen,

You're quite right.  I bear liability for something happening in my house.  It's why nobody is allowed in.

(Just kidding.)  Seriously, I am careful about who I permit in my space.  I'm careful about who's space I enter.  You also can't squeeze blood from a stone; if someone breaks their neck and wins a five million dollar lawsuit against me, it'd be a cold day in hell when they see it; I doubt very much I will earn more than $500,000 in my entire life.  Should I leave the country, it would be quite an impossible debt to collect.  And the wheels on the bus go round and round...




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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 1:11:53 PM   
Marc2b


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This all relates to one of my firm philosophical beliefs – there are no solutions, only trade-offs. It all comes down to what level of risk we are willing to assume. Some years ago I heard about a proposal to require safety seats on airplanes for young children, to save lives of course, and if this caused the plane ticket to cost more it was worth it "if just one child’s life was saved." A study showed that some people, unable or unwilling to pay the higher price would choose instead to drive to their desired location – thus increasing the risk of injury or death to the child (in terms of deaths per thousand, flying really is much safer than driving). All to often "solving" a problem isn’t really solving it – it is just making it someone else’s problem, or creating new problems.


LadyEllen said:
quote:

Well Stephann, in the UK you as the householder would be sued, should a visitor suffer an injury in your dangerous bathroom, regardless of whether you had made them aware of the perils. There is a duty of care - even if its a burglar who trips in the dark because you didnt replace your lightbulb, you are liable as the householder. Neat eh?

I read about a case once here in the U.S. about a man who broke into a family’s house to rob it one night when the family was out for the evening. The family dog bit the man – and the man sued the family for failure to control their dog! And Won!

P.J. O’rouke summed it up best: what could be stupider than letting lawyers write laws?

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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 1:27:49 PM   
Stephann


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The family could have always filed a countersuit for the mental and emotional distress the dog suffered, due to the burgler's presence.

A wise policeman once told me something, long ago.  If someone breaks into your house; kill him.  Dead men cannot sue. 

Stephan


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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 1:38:25 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seatonstomb

George Bush, Tony Blair and Most American and British Politicians would not give a brass farthing to save. Same with Sportsmen, TV stars, Industrialists and Clergy. Now would consider others on a varying skale


Thank you for your valuable input.

FirmKY


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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 6:42:45 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ferryman777

You may scoff at a bathroom slipage law....Arnold passed a law banning the sale and manufacture of Light Blubs as we know it; in lieu of our current light blubs, the requirement is to sell and only manufacture the new, econo blub.

So what, you say.....it's just a light blub;.....A law was passed to prohibit a product from being sold, or manufactured....not like a GUN; or some hazard type of product; but a common consumer, everyday use type of thing.....; now this is the beginning, free enterprise, no...... pure fascism.

Emotion has no bearing on death, no matter who, it is all, ALL about money.


hmmm sounds like he would make a great prezlol


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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 7:41:58 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ferryman777

Okay, to calculate the 'Cost of A Life'...what is a life worth...no need to speculate; just find the value cost of the usable organs of your body. Every organ comes with a price tag.




 SUM OF THE PARTS.

What's your body worth? Here's a legal look.

    * Blood.

      Blood banks pay $20 for each plasma donation, usually a litttle more than a pint. A 90-minute procedure may be done two to three times per week, meaning about up to $3,000 per year.

    * Eggs.

      Some infertility clinics pay an average of $5,000 to $8,000 for egg donations, which can require many shots and several visits.

    * Sperm.

      Sperm donors can be paid as much as $75 per visit.

    * Hair.

      Wig-makers and doll shops are the biggest buyers. Some wig shops will pay $30 an ounce for good quality hair more than 16 inches long.

    * Breast milk.

      A risky, burgeoning market at online auction sites and classified listings. Prices range from 25 cents an ounce to about $6 an ounce.



How much is my body worth?

The U.S. Bureau of Chemistry and Soils invested many a hard-earned tax dollar in calculating the chemical and mineral composition of the human body, which breaks down as follows:

  # 65% Oxygen
  # 18% Carbon
  # 10% Hydrogen
  # 3% Nitrogen
  # 1.5% Calcium
  # 1% Phosphorous
  # 0.35% Potassium
  # 0.25% Sulfur
  # 0.15% Sodium
  # 0.15% Chlorine
  # 0.05% Magnesium
  # 0.0004% Iron
  # 0.00004% Iodine

Additionally, it was discovered that our bodies contain trace quantities of fluorine, silicon, manganese, zinc, copper, aluminum, and arsenic. Together, all of the above amounts to less than one dollar!

When we total the monetary value of the elements in our bodies and the value of the average person's skin, we arrive at a net worth of $4.50!



Illegal Human Organ Trade from Executed Prisoners in China

The man, Mr. Wang, said he “could sell Mr. Wu fifty prisoners on death row over the next year. His price list was as follows: $25,000 for livers, $20,000 for kidneys, and corneas and pancreases for $5,000 a pair.”



How much is the human body worth?

How much is a human body worth? When broken down into fluids, tissues and germ fighting our bodies are worth more than $45 million.

This price tag on the human body is based on a survey published in Wired magazine. It found that vital organs are no longer the most valuable body parts. Rather, bone marrow heads the list…priced at $23 million, based on 1,000 grams at $23,000 per gram.

DNA can fetch $9.7 million, while extracting antibodies can bring $7.3 million. A lung is worth $116,400, a kidney $91,400 and a heart $57,000.

Women’s eggs are costlier than men's sperm. The survey found that a fertile woman could sell 32 egg cells over eight years for $224,000; however, for a man to earn the same amount, he would have to make 12 sperm donations a month for 20 years.

The prices are based on cost estimates taken from hospitals and insurance companies, and are based on projected prices only in the United States. Of course, the prices also assume that all these substances can be extracted from living tissue for sale.

Although this break down is illegal, unethical and also impossible,  you should not feel like a million dollars anymore. You can feel like $45 million, instead!



So, your range is:

Low Price of a Human: $4.50

to

High Price of a Human: $45,000,000

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 3/27/2007 7:44:46 PM >


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RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? - 3/27/2007 7:48:25 PM   
kiyari


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Well... Life after all, is a terminal disease... we all die.

In large part, I would think what you are asking has all to do with the value of the life of another, cut short, as their loss relates personally to you.

For the aspect of pain and suffering as vs some easier exit.... context applies in large or small

Philosophically, asking in theoretical contexts... well... give us case by case for our considered opinions?

It saddens me that there exists the 'funeral parlour' business... divorcing us from our private, in-home time with the deceased beloved's vehicle.

< Message edited by kiyari -- 3/27/2007 7:50:54 PM >

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