A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (Full Version)

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waterdance -> A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 7:46:27 AM)

i have been doing alot of work on my spirituality in the last year.  In that time i have read a tremendous amount of feminist view points.  In my heart i know i am a submissive and in reading the writings of many feminists, it's seems that they look down on this lifestyle.  i guess my question is are there submissive women out there that also consider themselves feminists?  And if there is, how do you balance such a "lifestyle"?   Respectfully,waterdance



MasterFireMaam -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 8:05:20 AM)

Feminism, in it's original context, was about women's right to choose. If you choose to be submissive and revel in it, you are still a feminist. "Rejoice and be glad in it." ;-)

Master Fire



darkinshadows -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 8:21:05 AM)

I agree with MasterFireMaam - I believe in the rights of women in the original sense of the word.  But in the 'modern' take of feminism, I am certainly not.  Personally, I believe many self proclaimed feminists have set women back and just cause guilt and frustration.



AquaticSub -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 8:33:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: waterdance

i have been doing alot of work on my spirituality in the last year.  In that time i have read a tremendous amount of feminist view points.  In my heart i know i am a submissive and in reading the writings of many feminists, it's seems that they look down on this lifestyle.  i guess my question is are there submissive women out there that also consider themselves feminists?  And if there is, how do you balance such a "lifestyle"?   Respectfully,waterdance


I'm a feminist and there isn't a need "balence" my lifestyle and my views. This is my choice, not anything I was forced into it.



sublizzie -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 8:43:17 AM)

There are as many different kinds of feminist as there are different kinds of Baptists or views on WIIWD. Depending on which vein of feminism you're reading you could find a lot of disagreement with this lifestyle or none at all. While most would be more appreciative of a female dominant, there are some that wouldn't like that either.

All that said, I've been a feminist for years. As long as I am allowed to make this choice and live this way because it is right for me, I'm happy. But I will defend to my death the right of other women to choose differently. Too many women for too long have had little choice in the matter and were forced into roles that were not appropriate for them.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 9:00:40 AM)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_749435/mpage_2/key_feminism/tm.htm#749900
handling feminist friends

http://www.collarchat.com/m_578508/mpage_1/key_feminism/tm.htm#578633
are there any feminists out there?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_147894/mpage_1/key_feminist/tm.htm#147894
bdsm and feminism

http://www.collarchat.com/m_127026/mpage_1/key_feminist/tm.htm#127026
feminism and bdsm



obis -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 9:01:49 AM)

If you read the works of more modern third wave or "sex-positive" feminists, I think you'll find that they embrace the notion of individual sexual choice far more than earlier leaders did. It's easy to understand why influential women like Steinem would frown upon anything that seemed to be simply bowing to the patriarchy in another guise, but ultimately only an individual woman and her lover can decide if submission or domination is a genuine desire or simply an excuse to fit into the stereotype of a woman because you feel society expects it.

I grew up in a very feminist household (and still consider myself to be very feminist), so this was one of the stereotypes or preconceptions I had to deal with in order to become comfortable with my own dominant desires. Ultimately I realized that if all you do is replace the expectations of the patriarchy with the expectations of the matriarchy, how have women (or society) progressed? The ultimate goal of feminism (and the Civil Rights movement as a whole) was to give ALL people equal opportunity to choose how they want to live and work, not require that they choose an "acceptable" life.

The main point of conflict now is ultimately whether women are truly choosing things, or only appearing to choose them because they are still so influenced by society's expectations. But think about what a sign of great social progress that is -- that the debate has now moved into individual motivations rather than trying to justify why women would even want or "deserve" to be given equal freedom of choice! [:)]



darkinshadows -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 9:18:45 AM)

I wrote an article about service a while back which I posted here and on other sites.  (Em - you sexy google - if you can help me find it I would be forever grateful, because I lost alot from my PC including that and I really want to get it back!) The feedback I recieved from it was IMO astonishing.  It saddened me to think that people were ashamed to stand up and say they served with grace and dignity simply because they had been shot down as being 'doormats' or setting the feminist movement back 100 years, simply because it was THEIR choice to cook a meal, wash clothing and just be there for their partner.



Mercnbeth -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 9:40:23 AM)

quote:

i guess my question is are there submissive women out there that also consider themselves feminists?  And if there is, how do you balance such a "lifestyle"? 

I understand the goal of the feminist movement to be for a woman to not have pre-determined roles. If all barriers to achievement are removed, why can't achieving the goal of 'slave' or 'submissive' be viewed in a positive manner?

Discrimination isn't limited to removal of a "glass ceiling". There should be no sense of shame or discrimination addressed to woman who in the 'vanilla' world, see being a "stay at home mother" as a career path. Similarly a woman being true to her nature and desiring a life, which in lifestyle context is commonly labeled 'submissive' or 'slave', should also be respected for that decision.

Confidence and pride play a role. Achieving those traits requires a deep and fundamental knowledge of 'self'. Once you bring those assets to the table, you'll realize that being a 'slave' or 'submissive' is not contradictory to the feminist movement.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 10:38:37 AM)

Dark thanks :)  Might have to wait until tonight, but will do a good looking for you.



WillowRain -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 10:45:09 AM)

I self identify as a feminist and am a submissive woman. Feminism at it's highest shouldn't be about building a new box that women must "fit" within. Ideally it should be that women have unlimited choices and that their path in life is determined by their hearts and souls, NOT their gender.

Ideally, feminism is about women (and men) having options.

Run a corporation.

Kneel at another person's feet.

Do both. Do neither. Ain't it grand to have choices.

Master Jack's,
Willow Rain



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 11:03:01 AM)

You know, I'm really getting annoyed by CMs "can't post messages so shortly after one another" - can't you just give me that message and NOT erase everything I've just typed?

We need to eliminate the glass floor as much as the glass ceiling.



BRNaughtyAngel -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 11:57:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

I wrote an article about service a while back which I posted here and on other sites.  (Em - you sexy google - if you can help me find it I would be forever grateful, because I lost alot from my PC including that and I really want to get it back!) The feedback I recieved from it was IMO astonishing.  It saddened me to think that people were ashamed to stand up and say they served with grace and dignity simply because they had been shot down as being 'doormats' or setting the feminist movement back 100 years, simply because it was THEIR choice to cook a meal, wash clothing and just be there for their partner.



Is this what you are looking for?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_547684/mpage_1/key_service/tm.htm#547684



darkinshadows -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 12:04:11 PM)

Yes... thank you!
Geez... why I could not find it beats me.  I am truely grateful!  I thought I had lost it forever...
 
Peace and Rapture



BRNaughtyAngel -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 12:14:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Yes... thank you!
Geez... why I could not find it beats me.  I am truely grateful!  I thought I had lost it forever...
 
Peace and Rapture



You are quite welcome!  And now I need to take a moment and read it along with the rest of the thread. [:)]



completenz -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 1:09:51 PM)

hi
being a feminist has given me the power and freedom to live my life as i choose. Nobody forces me to do anything i do not want to do. my submission to Him allows me to feel happier and more 'at peace' than i have ever felt before.
hugs
c



hisannabelle -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 2:49:12 PM)

waterdance,

i very much consider myself a feminist. i believe women should have the same choices as men. i also have studied and practiced a religious path that incorporates modern "feminist" traditions.

the idea that submissive women are somehow "anti-feminist" makes me very angry, personally. to me, the idea that we cannot choose this life for ourselves because that somehow "sets women back" is just silly, and goes against the whole point of feminism.

hope you are well.
annabelle.



blushingflower -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 3:26:28 PM)

I'm a feminist.  And I think that the Doms I've been with have been feminists as well.  They respect my intelligence and my right to earn my own living and make my own choices.
Feminism is about believing that men and women are entitled to equal treatment under the law and in society, and that they should have choices.  I submit because it makes me happy, not because I feel that I'm inferior to men. There are people who think that submissive women are somehow traitors to the cause because we allow men to tell us what to do, but I, at least, only allow men I respect to tell me what to do.  Women who submit because they like to are making a choice, not being forced to give up who they are because men benefit from that.



seeksfemslave -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/28/2007 3:37:50 PM)

As I see it Feminism originated as a middle class phenomenon that simply wanted to raise the social and economic position and  aspirations of women. Nothing wrong with that.

If it has developed to encompass submissive or passive women then so much the better.



andyskayla -> RE: A question about feminism and the lifetstyle... (3/29/2007 8:02:40 AM)

I am very much a feminist, as is the man to whom I submit.  We both believe that women have the right to define what their lives should look like as much as men do. 

I think (and I'm somewhat of a youngun, not really doing anything but reading message boards till  a few years ago) that in the 80s many in the feminist movement were freaked out by S&M but by the mid to late 90s the feminist movement had caught up.  NOW, for example, condemned S&M at one point (I think late 70s, but I'm not sure) and the rescinded that ban in the late 90s.  In my experience, some people in the kinky community haven't yet caught up with the new information because I never felt anyone in the feminist movement was forcing me to pick (there's even a few theory-heavy writers like Lynda Hart writing about S&M from a post-modern, way-too-many-big-words perspective), but I have felt people in the S&M community saying you can't be both. 



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