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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/3/2007 10:54:23 PM   
caitlyn


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Now Firm ... are you really challenging the notion that everyone in Houston is a pain in the ice?

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/3/2007 10:55:51 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:


Global Warming "Very Likely" Caused by Humans, World Climate Experts Say
John Roach
for National Geographic News
February 2, 2007Global warming is here, it's human-caused, and it will continue for centuries even if greenhouse-gas emissions are stabilized, an international panel of climate experts said in a report issued today. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) used its strongest language yet to link human activity to Earth's warming temperatures, rising seas, more intense storms, and a host of other environmental maladies.


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070202-global-warming.html

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 4/3/2007 10:56:41 PM >


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/3/2007 11:01:50 PM   
Sinergy


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The problem I have with Global Warming objectionists is their blase "Wait and See" attitude and "It needs more study" approach.  Meanwhile, the earth is heating up, we have 12 of the highest temperatures ever recorded in the past 15 years. 

Ice cores show levels of carbon dioxide decrease and increase seem to correlate to ice thickness increase and decrease going back thousands and thousands of years.  For those of you taking notes, that means that every time concentrations of CO2 have gone up, yearly increases in ice thicknesses have gone down.

Ice cores show levels of isotopes of carbon in the atmosphere for thousands of years.  These same samples empirically prove that the ration of Carbon 14 to Carbon 16 is dramatically different in the past 200 years (since man started burning fossil fuels) than at any time in the past thousands of years.   I dont recall off the top of my head which of these isotopes is found by burning fossil fuels, but it empirically proves the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere at the present time is largely the result of humans.  For those in the front row, we have a significant rise in CO2 in the past 100 years, and this significant rise in CO2 is scientifically proven to be largely caused by burning of fossil fuels.

On the other hand, nothing FirmKY pointed out empirically proves anything.  It is simply an avoidance tactic to try to avalanche me with a bunch of unrelated instances.  I could ask him "why" the ice increased or decreased in each of those instances where it increased or decreased, but I imagine he would refuse to provide any peer reviewed scientific studies.  I could ask him why there is no snow on Mt. Kilimanjaro.  What happened to the Patagonia Ice Fields.  Where the Columbia or Mt. Blanc glaciers went. 

It reminds me of the talking heads in the early 1980s who claimed that AIDS was caused by anal sex among gay people.  Sure, gay people tended to have higher instances of it in the 1980s, but nobody wanted to examine the vast number of hemophiliacs who had it as well.  Then some scientist discovered a blood virus which caused the disease.  Even after this happened, there were any number of talking heads who still claimed HIV was God's Punishment for gay people.

If it works for him to stick his head in the sand and pretend nothing is going to happen, it is not really worthwhile for me to attempt to provide him with useful information.  On the other hand, I dont want to destroy the planet for my great grand-UMs, so I am going to do what I can to cut down carbon emissions and energy consumption.

Sinergy


_____________________________

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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/3/2007 11:04:38 PM   
deadbluebird


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http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/03/070330-warming-arctic.html

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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/3/2007 11:07:45 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: deadbluebird

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/03/070330-warming-arctic.html


Too many big words in that article for the anti-global warming crowd, deadbluebird, but thank you for the link.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 8:47:58 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: deadbluebird

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/03/070330-warming-arctic.html


Arctic Melting Linked to Human Causes, Long-Term Review Finds

The dramatic loss of Arctic sea ice in recent years is the result of human-induced greenhouse gas emissions combined with natural cycles, according to a new study.

Very definite "fact" stated here.  Now, lets look at what this "fact" is based on ...


The loss of ice will likely (or will likely not - weasel words) change water temperatures and affect the circulation of ocean currents, which may (or may not - weasel word) alter climates around the world, the study suggests (weasel word).

The study reviewed previous research of Arctic sea ice, which showed that the ice has been steadily disappearing since 1979.

Not original research.  The latest research on the Greenland and Antarctic ice shelves have different conclusions.  Which is better in science - direct physical evidence in which the direct factors are observed and controlled, or reliance on previous studies that do not have the latest data, and in which there is not a standard measurement of data?

In September 2005 satellite images revealed that the Arctic ice was at its lowest level in some 50 years of observation.

"If we compare how much ice we had in September 2005 with a typical September, we've lost an amount of ice about twice the size of Texas," said lead author Mark Serreze, senior researcher at the National Snow and Ice Data Center at the University of Colorado, Boulder.

"So we're talking about a lot of real estate."

Interesting analogy, but what does it mean?  Saying it was "about twice the size of Texas" sounds really bad ... but how much water is this,exactly, on the scale of the oceans?  Reference to data without the surrounding context is useless and is simply a method of drawing attention and presenting a point of view.  Scientifically, it's useless.

There have been previous periods of Arctic warmth not attributed to human causes, Serreze said, and ice cover grows each winter only to shrink in summer.

Duh.  So ... question?  What caused the "previous periods of Arctic warmth not attributed to human causes"?


But the current loss probably can't be ascribed to natural cycles alone, Serreze believes.

In the March 16 issue of the journal Science, Serreze and colleagues report that the evidence "strongly suggests" the ice loss is caused by human-induced global warming.

"Strongly suggests"?  I could live with that.  But ... it is an opinion (notice "he believes").  What is the level of mathematical confidence and certainty?  If you can't quantify it, it's not science.

...

The researchers pored over decades' worth of satellite images, as well as records from airplanes and ships, to compile a historical picture of Arctic sea ice over the past half century.

Satellite images .... records from airplanes and ships ... nice example of inconsistent and largely subjective data.

...

Arctic temperatures have also varied dramatically from decade to decade and were abnormally warm from 1925 to 1945, the data show.

So ... question?  Was there more, or less man-made "greenhouse gases" in the period from 1925 to 1945, than there was from 1945 to now?  This sentence, by itself should bring questions to your mind.

Can anyone show any reason for a warm spell early in the century, and then, after 1945, tell you why the Arctic cooled down again? (Maybe it was all that facist and "arsenal of democracy" stuff from the two world wars?). 

I think this is a critical weakness in the overt conclusions of this entire "study".  And they simply skip right over it.  What does that tell you?


But the most recent reports demonstrate that Arctic temperatures have increased at almost twice the global average rate over the past century.

And how much is that, exactly?  And based on what?  If the study mentioned (the one by satellite, ships and airplanes, remember?) covers this, then what is the basis for their claims of a temperature change "over the past century"?  How many temperature measurement stations were in the Arctic in 1907?


Natural variations "play a large role" in the Arctic's changing air temperature, Serreze said. But overall the observations are consistent with the melting that climate models have predicted would result from higher greenhouse-gas emissions.

How large a role?  Quantify, please.  How about the warming period in 1925 to 1945, followed by a cooling period during a period of higher industrial output after 1945?

"There has always been uncertainty about whether these observed changes are natural variability," he said.

"But we now have a consensus between observations and what the models are telling us. In my mind, it's very convincing that we're starting to the see the effects of human activity on Arctic ice cover."

Admits "uncertainty" but then claims that "in my mind it's very convincing".  That's great.  In his mind.  How about other scientist that "in their mind, it's not very convincing"?  His study doesn't even have the latest, most up-to-date data, does it?

Notice the flow of the article (this is a "convince them" piece, btw).  First, a strong thesis as if it's fact beyond a doubt.  Then, lots of weasel words, and "maybe's" and "could be's" (variability and uncertainty) followed by a declaration of "fact" that is actually supposition based on a "belief" that isn't strongly linked to the actual facts, and is in contradiction to the latest data on the Antarctic and Greenland.


Human-caused warming may (or may not - weasel words) change the seasonal ice system and dramatically speed the loss of ice, said Bruno Tremblay of McGill University in Montreal, Canada, who was not involved in the new study.

"The system can recover from a low ice year. But, as warming continues, a critical thickness is reached beyond which the system no longer recovers," he said.

Open water absorbs solar energy that would otherwise have been reflected by ice, he explained, which perpetuates the melting cycle.

"So ocean water warms, and the ice forms later in the fall, and you typically have an earlier melt onset," he said.


True facts, but not directly related.  Given simply to cause anxiety about "global warming".


Vanishing sea ice might (or might not - weasel word) also spur the melting of Greenland's ice cap by warming the ocean waters into which the glaciers spill.
"In a place like Greenland the amount of heat that waters carry in summer is directly related to how much ice there would be," said Ian Howat, a researcher with the University of Washington's Polar Science Center who was not involved with the Science report.
"One can almost imagine (or not imagine - weasel words) sea ice acting like a buffer around the coast of Greenland. Remove that buffer, and the heat could more efficiently get at the edge of the ice sheet."

No data exists to link shrinking sea ice cover with Greenland's glaciers, Howat said, but he sees an intriguing correlation.

How much plainer can you get - NO DATA EXISTS!  Damn people, if there is no data, it's simply not science.  It's speculation.


"It's interesting that 2005 was the largest single loss of Arctic sea ice," he said.

"The glaciers in Greenland retreated more in 2005 than we've ever seen them retreat. One of the major points of our research is that the glaciers are much more sensitive to short-term variability than we had previously thought."

And in 2006, they stopped retreating.  I made this exact point in another thread.

We are learning every day.  It's good, in that sense, that we are gathering data about how the global climate system works, including glaciers.  But the fact that such important things are discovered simply highlights our ignorance.


Many scientists believe that the loss of sea ice may (or may not - weasel words) have significant impacts on the world's climate.
A loss of ice will likely (or likely not - weasel words) change water temperatures and affect the circulation of ocean currents, altering regional climates, Serreze said.

"If you fundamentally change the nature of the Arctic, the rest of the system has to respond. The devil is in the details—what will those changes look like?" he asked.

He is admiting he doesn't know what will happen, based on his own study and his own data, even though the article certainly doesn't leave any doubt about the writers point of view, now does it?

Some models suggest (not prove - weasel word) reduced rainfall and increased droughts in the already arid western regions of North America.

The changes could (or could not - weasel word) also result in increased winter precipitation in western and southern Europe, as well as more intense storm tracks in the globe's mid latitudes.

But climate modeling is so complex that no one really knows, Serreze pointed out.

Again ... the author of the study again ... AGAIN, damit ... points out that the conclusion of what it all means isn't known!:

"But climate modeling is so complex that no one really knows." 

Do you guys simply skip over those claims of ignorance?

"To my mind that's more worrisome," Serreze said. "What kind of surprises could we be in store for?"

Not a problem to worry about, unless you have another agenda.  Do more research.

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 4/4/2007 9:22:04 AM >


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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 9:04:54 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: deadbluebird

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/03/070330-warming-arctic.html


Too many big words in that article for the anti-global warming crowd, deadbluebird, but thank you for the link.


The difference, dear Sinergy between your beliefs and science are a chasm.

You want to believe ... therefore you twist the very definition of what science is, and how it works to make it fit your preconceived notions.

It's not the "big words" that confuse you.  It's your own "will to believe" and blind faith.

FirmKY


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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 9:12:48 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Exactly.  We have one planet to live on and it is in our own
best interests to follow the recommendations of the scientific
majority.  The long term consequences of our actions and
inactions will effect our children and their children and their
children's children.

 
Unfortunately many people choose not to study the hard science and believe in the oil industry spokespeople.


Funny.  And typical.  Attack the source, and not the facts.

The article I quoted in my post 8:

East Antarctic Ice Sheet Gains Mass and Slows Sea Level Rise, Study Finds

Here is a paragraph I left out:

The study, funded by NASA's Cryospheric Processes Program and the National Science Foundation's Antarctic Glaciology Program, suggests that increased precipitation was the likely cause of the gain. This was based on comparisons with precipitation model predictions over the same period of time. The most recent U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change reported that Antarctica would gain mass due to increased precipitation in a warming climate. However, the study made no direct link to global warming.

So ... you say that NASA and the National Science Foundation are " oil industry spokespeople"?  And IPCC is as well?

Neato!  New information! 

hmmm, maybe if you actually read some of the links, instead of just randomly posting emotional ejecta, you might not get embarrassed by your faux pas.

FirmKY

PS.  How's that, popeye? 


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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 9:27:38 AM   
farglebargle


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Yeah, well the problem with speculation is that it's just speculation that it's NOT happening as well.

The Deniers are just as wrong as the Proponents.





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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 9:28:24 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: deadbluebird

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/03/070330-warming-arctic.html


Too many big words in that article for the anti-global warming crowd, deadbluebird, but thank you for the link.

Sinergy


I find it very entertaining when people grasp on to any old theory that some lunatic fringe scientist puts forward instead of looking at the consensus of the scientific community. Normally I welcome way out there scientific theories because once in a while someone will think big outside the box... but when it comes to global warming, we do not have time to play with someone's stab in the dark as with Abdussamatov, who has very little credibility among those who have studied the issue for decades.

What amuses me is that the same people that lied about global warming even being real for many many years now admit it is real. Now that they admit it is real, they deny it will have harmful impacts, and even if it would have harmful impacts they even go as far as to say that these impacts are not human induced whatsoever... who is one going to believe?

Personally I will believe the people that projected the reality that is global warming, that modeled what we see occuring today, that were even more conservative in their projections than what we see happening around the globe.I will believe the people that have been consistently correct about the global warming phenomena... not those who have consistently been wrong... it is only logical to go with those with the proven track record... and who have scientific evidence like you espoused in your earlier post...

To do otherwise is the epitome of arrogance in my mind, like I said, when the naysayers can tell me what planet our grandkids are moving to once this one is uninhabitable.. I will gladly say that pumping CO2 without thought into the atmosphere is fine by me.

I have seen academic documentaries on this topic of sea level rise.. I have seen government officials from tiny islands interviewed on what is already occuring, which is sea level rise, shore erosion, and expenditures that they incur to keep it at bay... sooner or later many people will have to be moved as a result of this... and most of humanity lives at or near sea level.



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 9:32:04 AM   
FirmhandKY


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So, julia .... since you are so big about "scientific consensus" .... would you then agree with me that the "science" of Marxism is disproven?  That the "scientific consensus" is that free markets work, and that command economies don't?

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 4/4/2007 10:07:55 AM >


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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 9:34:02 AM   
farglebargle


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Where is there a "Free Market"? All I see in the US is regulated markets, as I shell out another 2.75 for a 1/2 gallon of milk...



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 9:36:12 AM   
Dnomyar


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Michigan was a tropical inland sea at one time. Cuba was in the pacific ocean at one time. All the land mass was in one piece at one time. Who gets the blame for changing all of that. Global warming, go to the UP in Michigan today and tell them about that.  They are having an all day blizzard. The earth is constantly changing and there is nothing we can do about that.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 9:39:17 AM   
SirDiscipliner69


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Known fact that climate is changing due to Global Warming

Now bees are dying off because of climate change and stress induced by this on bees.

Without bees polination of major crops will fail.

When crops fail people will starve and prices will go up.

We covered this in following discussions:

What planet is Sen. James Inhofe, R-Oklahoma, who calls global warming the biggest hoax ever perpetuated on Americans on?
http://www.collarchat.com/m_906025/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm

Ross
©º°¨¨°º©

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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 9:39:55 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I find it very entertaining when people grasp on to any old theory that some lunatic fringe scientist puts forward instead of looking at the consensus of the scientific community. Normally I welcome way out there scientific theories because once in a while someone will think big outside the box... but when it comes to global warming, we do not have time to play with someone's stab in the dark as with Abdussamatov, who has very little credibility among those who have studied the issue for decades.

What amuses me is that the same people that lied about global warming even being real for many many years now admit it is real. Now that they admit it is real, they deny it will have harmful impacts, and even if it would have harmful impacts they even go as far as to say that these impacts are not human induced whatsoever... who is one going to believe?

Personally I will believe the people that projected the reality that is global warming, that modeled what we see occuring today, that were even more conservative in their projections than what we see happening around the globe.I will believe the people that have been consistently correct about the global warming phenomena... not those who have consistently been wrong... it is only logical to go with those with the proven track record... and who have scientific evidence like you espoused in your earlier post...

To do otherwise is the epitome of arrogance in my mind, like I said, when the naysayers can tell me what planet our grandkids are moving to once this one is uninhabitable.. I will gladly say that pumping CO2 without thought into the atmosphere is fine by me.

I have seen academic documentaries on this topic of sea level rise.. I have seen government officials from tiny islands interviewed on what is already occuring, which is sea level rise, shore erosion, and expenditures that they incur to keep it at bay... sooner or later many people will have to be moved as a result of this... and most of humanity lives at or near sea level.


Lots of big words, but only an emotional appeal. 

Science isn't emotions.  Science is based on facts, probability and the ability for a theory to explain all the facts, and give reproduceable results.

Running off and making massive changes, or investing in massive programs with questionable facts and theories will land you in just as much trouble - if not more - than not taking action when you don't actually know what - if anything - is happening.

Which is why you and others substitute emotional appeals for scientific proof.  You have an emotional and political agenda.

I have seen academic documentaries on this topic of sea level rise.. I have seen government officials from tiny islands interviewed on what is already occuring, which is sea level rise, shore erosion, and expenditures that they incur to keep it at bay... sooner or later many people will have to be moved as a result of this... and most of humanity lives at or near sea level.

Mind sharing some of these real "facts"?

FirmKY



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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 9:43:10 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Where is there a "Free Market"? All I see in the US is regulated markets, as I shell out another 2.75 for a 1/2 gallon of milk...




People often do not understand how the global economy works... for such people I recommend this audio series about how the world banking system works, how "free trade" works.

Google the wizards of money... great series and it is free.

And in case some people do not understand what kind of discipline economics is.. it is a social science, not a hard science like astronomy or climatology or chemistry... kinda like cultural anthropology....lol.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 9:44:57 AM   
farglebargle


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FACT: No one has an accurate model, which permits the drawing of meaningful conclusions EITHER WAY about the topic.

FACT: Everything else anyone has to say about the topic is bullshit.

As an aside to the deniers, WHAT is your contingency plan, in the event you are incorrect? Are you putting together the infrastructure to evacuate the planet? Why not?

Seems to me like the ONLY reasonable position is: "WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT WTF IS GOING ON"....



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 9:45:23 AM   
juliaoceania


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I will only state this one more time to you, I find you rude and obnoxious and I will not engage you in any form of debate... so ask as many questions as you like, but I will not debate you. Your lack of respect for not only me, but others that post here appalls me.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 9:49:23 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

FACT: No one has an accurate model, which permits the drawing of meaningful conclusions EITHER WAY about the topic.

FACT: Everything else anyone has to say about the topic is bullshit.

As an aside to the deniers, WHAT is your contingency plan, in the event you are incorrect? Are you putting together the infrastructure to evacuate the planet? Why not?

Seems to me like the ONLY reasonable position is: "WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT WTF IS GOING ON"....




That is exactly my position. If the ones that believe that global warming is a fiction or unpreventable can prove their position I will shut up forever about it. I have been proven wrong about things before, and my ego is not attached to being wrong about this. In fact I hope that global warming will not be the end of humanity.... I kinda like Earth.

It is kind of like being right about the outcomes in Iraq, the last thing in the world I am is happy about it. I wish Bush had been right and everyone in Iraq WAS better off than they had been before. Sometimes it sucks to be right.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 9:51:44 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Now Firm ... are you really challenging the notion that everyone in Houston is a pain in the ice?


Smart ... and funny. 

Damn, woman, why ain't you taken?

FirmKY


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(in reply to caitlyn)
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