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How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 4/14/2005 7:48:50 PM

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Of course, it's one of the big pet peeves of a lot of dominants -- when their partner tries topping from the bottom. I've experienced all forms of it, even the most subtle ones, and the passive aggressive nightmare types. Some subs really don't even know they are doing it.

How do you avoid trying to manipulate your partner if you don't feel like you are getting your needs met? Have you ever been doing it, and didn't even realize it?

And for dominants -- how do you deal with it? I generally warn one time when it happens, and if it happens again I don't "punish" (usually those that top from the bottom are attention whores), I ignore them for some period of time (and they know why) and try again.

Akasha

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RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 4/14/2005 7:57:20 PM

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Simple--I do not start relationships with people I can manipulate so easily.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 4/14/2005 8:40:37 PM

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I have a bad tendency to try and top from the bottom, without meaning to. A really bad tendency.

Communication is always the key. If I feel I can go to my Master and say "Hey, can we talk about this?" when something comes up that I don't agree with, then that eliminates my need to sulk or otherwise manipulate. If I can trust him to talk about it with me, and listen to what I have to say, and then tell me why he decided whatever he decided, I can deal with that. It's really important to establish that, right at the beginning, I think. "Yes, you can come and talk to me about decisions I make, and yes, I will listen, but you are the sub, and you have to understand that my decision will be final, whatever it is". Then later, I tend to stop questionning it, because I trust that he has a reason for making that decision. If he always has done in the past, and been willing to explain, then I have no reason to doubt him.

Of course, if I do start trying to top, it's really important that it gets corrected. A warning is always a good start for a girl who may not be aware she's doing it, and an explanation of what will happen if it continues. To me, it's important to be owned by a man who a) recognises when I'm playing up and trying to manipulate, and b) steps on it quickly. I don't generally care how, but it needs to happen. If that doesn't happen eventually I leave, because I want a man strong enough to hold me in place, not one who lets me whine and sulk as I please.

It's hard to explain why the situation even arises. I think it's because I have a desire to be "mastered", not just "owned". I don't ever want to top, but sometimes it can feel like it's the only way you can get the person to notice there is a problem, being afraid to talk about it, or not knowing how to. And sometimes even then, they might not realise there's a problem, and just punish you for being pushy, when the problem is actually so much simpler, and could be solved by just sitting down and making the sub tell you whats up.

I can only speak from my own experience... of course. With my current Master, I haven't tried to "top" him that I'm aware of, mainly because we talk about everything. If I'm not happy, I know I can email him, if I don't feel I can talk one-on-one, or, that he will notice something is up before it snowballs out of my control.

Well, I hope some of that makes sense... it's almost 5am here so I'm feeling a little disjointed, mentally....

Respectfully,
Minx

(in reply to junecleaver)

RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 4/15/2005 5:12:22 AM

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I have talked to my Master about this in great detail. I do it sometimes, and like you say, I don't really realize I'm doing it. Master says that it is almost impossible not to do, but if he doesn't like it, he's gonna let me know. There are times he lets me, and I do it, just to be punished!!

Rozy

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 4/15/2005 5:32:06 AM

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My owner is simply untoppable...lol. I learned a long time ago not to bother trying to manipulate because I never, ever, ever get what I am looking for. If I want something, I simply ask for it and if he sees fit to provide it then that's the end of it. If he doesn't...that's the end of it too.

best regards,
f

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RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 4/15/2005 5:46:16 AM

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Well this never really came up for me, because i always have felt oddly repulsed by a man who finds great pleasure in pleasing me sexually... finding out what i like, and doing that... i mean... it just drives me nuts for some reason.

As junecleaver said... i couldn't find someone attractive if i could manipulate them in any way... it just pours cold water over all my desire.

What turns me on is Master enjoying himself exactly how HE wants to... whatever it is. If i feel the sneakingest suspicion that he is doing something because I like it... UGH.

~ Elektra

(in reply to stormsfate)

RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 4/15/2005 6:11:24 AM

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It's just like breaking any bad habit- it takes self-awareness, time and retraining your reactions.

Become aware of what you do and when you do it. A lot of subs HAD to be manipulative to get what they wanted and get other people to top them...when they get into bdsm they take time to become secure that they no longer really HAVE to manipulate anymore. Until then, they often resort to their old habits when they feel stressed or upset.

Over time you gain a sense of security, of understanding your habits and are able to focus in order to stop them.

Most subs and slaves, at some point, will try and get what they want, will try and change their owners minds, will try and resist (not talking resistance play) by cajoling and manipulating their dom, most of the time the dom can immediately stop the behavior, but it just takes time for the sub to learn to accept and change their own behavior.

(in reply to ElektraUkM)

RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 4/15/2005 7:45:51 AM

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quote:

How do you avoid trying to manipulate your partner if you don't feel like you are getting your needs met?

Communication. IF this slave's needs weren't being met, she would open her mouth and TALK with Master about it, instead of hatching a plan and plotting some manipulative scheme.

quote:

There are times he lets me, and I do it, just to be punished!!

We don't play the punishment game. punishment means this slave has done something wrong and disappointed Master which in turn causes this slave much grief even before the punishment is administered. Punishment, for this slave, is NOT enjoyable.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 4/15/2005 7:55:52 AM >

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 4/15/2005 7:41:19 PM

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quote:

I generally warn one time when it happens, and if it happens again I don't "punish" (usually those that top from the bottom are attention whores), I ignore them for some period of time (and they know why) and try again.

I agree with the approach of negatively reinforcing the behavior. However, I don't see it as being an attention whore; I think it is more of a "do me" or "I want" attitude, so if she is trying to get me to do one thing she likes that means I have to do something she doesn't like at all. And I'm not so nice to give a warning, unless you call taunting her with something like "Oh, you want me to do X, do you?" as a warning I'm going to do something else instead.

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RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 4/15/2005 11:07:01 PM

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This is a weird topic for me now.

i guess i have had an awakening of sorts, a golden phoenix, a clarification of relationship or a deep soul searching?

i was a passiveaggressvie nightmare. But He never told me i was topping from the bottom.

i know that i am a reactionary passive aggressive type of personality becasue i am naturally submissive and could be quite the doormat and it was sabatoging my relationship...alot!!

Learnng about myelf for 3 months was incredibly rewarding but i was catapolted into a higher awareness several weeks ago.

Topping from the bottom is whatever a relationsip defines it.
One friend told me tonight she "exits" and even has to ask permission to say anything...mind you she is in fear of being caught on the puter the whole time she is reaching out to me.
In their relationship, she is topping from the bottom in a serious way.
In mine/ours? That would never be considered topping from the bottom, but selfish pity not to say what is on my mind respectfully and genuinely.

Once again, IMHO, topping from the bottom, is defined within WIITWD in relationsip as defined by the peeps within the relationship.

~~shy

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(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 4/16/2005 12:10:20 AM

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Just tell your slave "You can walk out on me any time you want. Other than that, you can't say no".

With an edgy rule like that, there's no topping from the bottom. The power dynamics get interesting. It's fun to push your slave's buttons, perhaps get her a little scared or angry. Make her do things she doesn't like. Get her angry, scared, and aroused. Then take her hard.

(in reply to slavedesires)

RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 4/16/2005 12:51:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: roughleather

Just tell your slave "You can walk out on me any time you want. Other than that, you can't say no".

With an edgy rule like that, there's no topping from the bottom. The power dynamics get interesting. It's fun to push your slave's buttons, perhaps get her a little scared or angry. Make her do things she doesn't like. Get her angry, scared, and aroused. Then take her hard.

thank God in heaven He is compassionate and human about who i am to Him.
He takes me hard cause He can, even when totally complicently obedient.

Dont need that kind of psycho bullshit in a Dom.

But then again thats me and He is He and not you.

Whatever floats your boat!

_____________________________

i speak only my personal opinion, sometimes O/ours.

"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable."
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

(in reply to roughleather)

RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 4/16/2005 3:11:29 AM

nella

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Comunication is the key, besides topping from the bottom in my relationship would be nearly inpossibel for what it comes to subtel hits, my fiance do not realy catch them. i could drape myself in a sexy nightgown, have a romantic dinner ready for him whit candel light when he got home and he still would not understand i wanted to have sex. So comunication must always happen whit us. Even if offcourse it not always do.

(in reply to slavedesires)

RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 4/17/2005 6:57:22 AM

thinkingblueeyes

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i simply try to focus on what it is that i desire. Once i can focus on that single desire, then i can see if i am seeking that desire simply for myself (which is normally the case). i tell myself to calm down, and simply trust the Woman in charge. Which is easier said then done. i imagine many submissive males top from the bottom with inexperienced Dommes, we just need a reminder to stop being so darn selfish and focus on what we should focus on....pleasing our Domme.

(in reply to nella)

RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 4/17/2005 7:44:19 AM

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I recently came to some realizations about behaviour I exhibit with some people/situations, including former relationships. I'd not referred to as topping from the bottom to myself; but in light of reading what everyone else here has to say I suppose on a theory level that is exactly what I was doing at times. Interestingly enough, I didn't do it at all for the first six months, but gradually began to slip and behave in a passive aggressive manner, amongst utilizing other tactics I'm sure I still haven't identified. I was not aware at the time that I was doing 'anything' at all and it took some reflection to see myself in a different light.

I saw that ... ewwww .... I was demonstrating passive aggressive behaviour! Grosse! I learned something very interesting about myself in the thought process though, which I hope to heed now that I'm aware of it. When I find myself in a situation where I feel the need to try to control what is happening around me regardless of how subtly I do it? It is because I am (or have grown) insecure inside about something/someone. Generally speaking I'm not this sort of person on any level lifestyle or not. I am comfortable with others and myself, If I find myself behaving in a certain manner, something has changed (or may not have been there to begin with).

There is communication and being open; both of which are great and healthy concepts. Once that communication starts holding an undertone of insecurity/desperation to control an outcome, situation of the actions of another? It's crossed into negative territory that needs to be seriously looked at on a larger scale. In essence, though I take my discovery with a grain of salt? If I were to find myself topping from the bottom in the future I'd be taking a hard look at myself and the situation I'm in and asking why do I now feel insecure when I didn't before? That is plan B! Plan A is to not repeat mistakes!

(in reply to thinkingblueeyes)

RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 5/16/2005 1:47:45 PM

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I bite my tongue...A lot

The closest I've come to topping from the bottom, is to lay down some not so subtle hints.

We also have the policy of "Begging Works", so if I want something bad enough, I can always beg for it. (Not that I always get what I beg for, no matter how creative I am.)

(in reply to FuriousAngel)

RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 5/16/2005 6:08:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

It's just like breaking any bad habit- it takes self-awareness, time and retraining your reactions.

Become aware of what you do and when you do it. A lot of subs HAD to be manipulative to get what they wanted and get other people to top them...when they get into bdsm they take time to become secure that they no longer really HAVE to manipulate anymore. Until then, they often resort to their old habits when they feel stressed or upset.

Over time you gain a sense of security, of understanding your habits and are able to focus in order to stop them.

Most subs and slaves, at some point, will try and get what they want, will try and change their owners minds, will try and resist (not talking resistance play) by cajoling and manipulating their dom, most of the time the dom can immediately stop the behavior, but it just takes time for the sub to learn to accept and change their own behavior.

Yes, exactly. I had a hard time when I first started playing with men who self identified as "submissive" because my early (tame) femdom experiences were with vanilla guys who didn't top from the bottom because they didn't really know what it was all about. Now, telling them I was not going to have *sex* with them, that was usually the issue, and making sure everyone was on the same page.

I wrote an article a long time ago called "unrealistic expectations from seeing pro femdoms" -- and it addressed these habits that some sub men have. And they honestly don't KNOW they have them, and have always had to kind of spell things out or state their needs.

Also, I would find that some would be so excited to be getting a taste of it, they wanted more, more, more and more -- regardless of whether or not I was physically or emotionally spent for that time period.

For me, the communication is important, but more important it is TIMING and CONTEXT. I'd lose all lust and focus and concentration if a sub decided to start "hinting" mid-play with me, just when I was getting into it. But if he talked with me about that fantasy, that idea, in a general, "hey some time this might be really exciting..." over a meal some time or while cuddling, then I am free to take the idea, mull it over, and take ownership of it by doing it on my time, in my way, and with my flavor. If he brings that up right in the middle of something I am doing for me, it tweaks my "femdom" rush -- it's the emotional/sensual equivalent of nails on a chalkboard.

Akasha

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Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 5/16/2005 9:37:02 PM

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I really do not see why it is something to avoid. Except for you saying it here I have never heard of it as a big pet peeve of any Dominant. I think it is something a sub is going to do a fair bit of to test out a Dominants limits, strength and authority in a new relationship. I also think any Dominant worth his or her salt is going to squash any and all behaviour they don't like.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 5/17/2005 5:56:59 AM

ProtagonistLily

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My comments are scene specific. I Top occasionally on a scene by scene basis in a strictly SM context

quote:

Of course, it's one of the big pet peeves of a lot of dominants -- when their partner tries topping from the bottom. I've experienced all forms of it, even the most subtle ones, and the passive aggressive nightmare types. Some subs really don't even know they are doing it.

And I think a lot of them do know they are doing it, and my experience has been they will push that because I don't own them. I never ever want to feel like either of us is doing the other a 'favor' by playing together, and the thing that will make me feel like that is a bottom who, after a period of negotiation, wants to interject their will into a scene.

quote:

How do you avoid trying to manipulate your partner if you don't feel like you are getting your needs met? Have you ever been doing it, and didn't even realize it?

I make it very clear in the negotiations that I'm not interested in being topped from the bottom, and if they are doing it, I correct it in scene. I will correct it only once.

quote:

And for dominants -- how do you deal with it? I generally warn one time when it happens, and if it happens again I don't "punish" (usually those that top from the bottom are attention whores), I ignore them for some period of time (and they know why) and try again.

For me, if the topping from the bottom continues during a session, I stop the scene. If the bottom can't communicate their 'needs' during the negotiations, I'm not a mind reader. The time to put that on the table is not when they are bound to the cross. If I want discussion during a session, the bottom will know it. I'm not interested in being cajoled into doing things because the bottom wants it. If I'm not feeling it, chances are it's not something I'm going to be apt to do. If a bottom has certain things they want in a particular scene, they have to tell me first. That doesn't mean they'll get it, but it is the right time to discuss it.

Just a few nights ago I stopped a scene because the bottom was giving me more 'tips' than I was willing to put up with. Sometimes I'll turn it around on them and use it for humiliation play, and sometimes, I'm just not in the mood and they've crossed a line and I stop the scene.

Lily

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(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: How do you avoid topping from the bottom? - 5/17/2005 6:40:28 AM

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I agree totally with MercnBeth. Communicate, ask for what you want, But remember it is up to the Master/Dom to decided weather you get it. Manipulating Master to get my way means that i take a chance of disappointing Him and just the thought of disappointing him make me think twice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

How do you avoid trying to manipulate your partner if you don't feel like you are getting your needs met?

Communication. IF this slave's needs weren't being met, she would open her mouth and TALK with Master about it, instead of hatching a plan and plotting some manipulative scheme.

quote:

There are times he lets me, and I do it, just to be punished!!

We don't play the punishment game. punishment means this slave has done something wrong and disappointed Master which in turn causes this slave much grief even before the punishment is administered. Punishment, for this slave, is NOT enjoyable.

_____________________________

peach ~ LordandMasters devoted alpha slave
"Only when the year has grown cold does one know that the pine and cypress are the last to wither"

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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