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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

At what point do you think the US started to decline as a country?

Do you think that individuality is a bad thing? To become less than individuals means to give more control to government. Is this not what many socialistic and communistic leaders wished? If you give up your personal freedoms and liberties (individuality) then you give up more control of your lives, who would take this control?

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Do you think that individuality is a bad thing? To become less than individuals means to give more control to government. Is this not what many socialistic and communistic leaders wished? If you give up your personal freedoms and liberties (individuality) then you give up more control of your lives, who would take this control?

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I would like to see us be more communally aware, more socially responsible and cohesive, which I think we lack with our culture of individuality. I dont mean like clones, but for each of us to be as divergent as we want yet still be as one.

I would like to see us be more respectful of our aged, which is going to become more and more important in the next few decades as the baby boomers (including me, just about) get into retirement.

I would like to see us become more generally respectful of one another and of others from outside our societies and cultures.

Looking at those three things, it occurs to me that most of our problems come from a lack of humility to recognise that we are part of a whole without which we couldnt live, particularly as individuals.

E

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

At what point do you think the US started to decline as a country?

Do you think that individuality is a bad thing? To become less than individuals means to give more control to government. Is this not what many socialistic and communistic leaders wished? If you give up your personal freedoms and liberties (individuality) then you give up more control of your lives, who would take this control?

Now I'm the king of the swingers
Oh, the jungle VIP
I've reached the top and had to stop
And that's what botherin' me

When a country gets to the top, there is only one way and that is down.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Do you think that individuality is a bad thing? To become less than individuals means to give more control to government. Is this not what many socialistic and communistic leaders wished? If you give up your personal freedoms and liberties (individuality) then you give up more control of your lives, who would take this control?

Western individualism is a sham and it is sold to Americans by their establishment to keep the powerful powerful. The individual can't exist without the collective. The American dream was always just that for the vast majority, a dream. Allowing a couple of people to be winners to prove to the millions their dream is not a fantasy is small beer when it comes to getting those drooling fools up in the morning and sat behind a desk or a machine and creating wealth for the rich for a few bucks a hour. Hell, Americans have so bought into this philosophy of the individual the poor pay taxes to keep the public infrastructure in place so the rich can make their money, how dumb is that? I'm not saying Europe is any better but at least a sizeable proportion of the population haven't bought into this capitalist dream shit and are determined to make the rich pay taxes for the privelege of living in a society that allows them to accummulate wealth.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf


My family was very low income, and so was I in my early twenties. Through hard work, educating myself, accepting responsibility and always pushing myself I have moved in to the middle income area. That is the American Dream, that hard work will pay off. I am not sure why you say a couple of people are winners. Does that mean everyone else is losers? Please explain the difference between winning and losing.

Working hard and getting rich don't necessarily have anything to do with each other in western culture. Getting rich is the ability to accummulate wealth, not an ability to work hard. Though I am relatively affluent, I am poor compared to my brother who admits he hasn't done a day's hard work in his life and says if he had spent his time working hard, he wouldn't be as wealthy as he is. Fools work hard, the smart play the system and get rich, if you are into that sort of thing, that's fine but it is the rich who would have you believe that working hard is a virtue. The irony of my brother, though I think he is far from unique, he expects people he pays to sweat for a few dollars while he never did. Maybe I'm just cynical but I've never bought into that work ethic thing, it has always seemsed to me that those that work hard profit the least. I see people pass my balcony everyday on their way to work hard and don't have the money I have.

Being someone that has a family business that does taxes, the truly poor don't pay any taxes. Often the ones that are truly poor, get enough credits so that they get back more money than they paid in. 2.5% of the work force makes just the minimum wage, out of that 2.5%, 1/3 of a percent are not servers and do not get a raise in their first few months. So exactly how many people are only making minimum wage? If you want me to feel sorry for the lazy and the ones without any drive, you can look elsewhere. I have worked jobs that started at min wage in my life, I have started at the bottom in several positions, I worked hard and kept an eye out for anything that was better.

Look at how much the American rich pay in taxes. It is doubtful they pay as much as you and certainly not now that Bush has improved the welfare state for the rich.

You are right that the individual is getting lost in America, but they are getting lost among their liberties and responsibilities being taken over by the government. The rich are not doing this, the politicians are on both sides of the aisle.

Ask yourself, who owns the politicians?

Could you please explain "I'm not saying Europe is any better but at least a sizeable proportion of the population haven't bought into this capitalist dream shit and are determined to make the rich pay taxes for the privelege of living in a society that allows them to accummulate wealth."  What if they got rich with hard work? Is getting rich a bad thing? If getting rich is a bad thing, then that same logic would say that staying poor is a good thing? I am confused by these remarks, and I am willing for you to explain them with logic and reason.

Whether people who espouse individualism or not, people live in a society and if it wasn't for the social collective, individualism wouldn't be able to flourish. It is therefore the interests of the individual to have a healthy society in which to thrive as it is for the collective society to allow individuals to flourish. Go too far one way you have the deadening hand of ideological communism, go to far the otherway you have the 'dog eat dog' viciousness of ideological capitalism. The rich owe their wealth to living in a collective that allows them to flourish and therefore should contribute to the healthy upkeep of the social whole and not expect the poor and the middle income earners to carry their burden.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Working hard still gets you ahead but you must work smart as well. If all you do is work hard (muscles) and never improve yourself intellectually, or look how to better your situation, you will be exactly where you are supposed to be. Nature and life tends to work out that way.

Society wouldn't function without agricultural workers, sewage workers and garbage collectors etc.etc but could function without lawyers, fashion models, soap stars and rock stars etc.etc. in fact society could function without a lot of so called professional workers. Who and what is paid to each says a lot about the culture in which we live and its values. It also says a lot about who holds the power and it has nothing to do with where people are supposed to fit in or what they deserve.

First we need to quantify exactly what you mean as rich. If you will provide that then I will provide dollar figure and percentage of income for you. Often those that have more money do pay a larger percentage. There is this thing called the alternative minimum tax that hits alot of people.

Hmm The last I knew my brother was worth 6 million dollars and lives in California, he says he pays more to his accountant than to the government. That isn't rich to a lot of people but it is fucking rich in my book.

I thought playing the system is how life worked, from the basis of ecology to economics to politics. Some of the system needs to be changed but doubtful socialist will agree that less government control over all is a good thing.

Capitalism has just as much control over society as socialism, maybe more so, it is a myth to say it hasn't. Look at the Strausian philosophy that has been used by the American government. The constant accussations of people who desent as being unAmerican and the constant scare stories of dangerous countries that want to bring down America (as if any could). They are all to keep the population in line. The American government doesn't believe in the free market and uses all sorts of protectionist measures to protect its industries and uses the threat of poverty to keep the population in line. If you don't succeed, if you lose your job, your house and your family breaks up, it is the fault of the individual, not the fault of the stupid and idiotic government that is fucking up the economy, a la Bush.

Could you define some of these "rich" you refer to and maybe we could research how they aquired their wealth. Maybe some do it in some ways and others do it in different ways. It is easy to scream about the "rich" and get people to nod their heads but it is often more difficult to use facts, logic and reason to state an arguement such as you are making.

My brother buys and sells. Buys from A and sells to B and takes his share. Yep, he has built up knowledge and contacts over the years and is quick witted but even he admits and he is proud of it, has never contributed anything to society. When he sits around the pool with his friends, they all seem to revel in the fact they are screwing people, earning money and doing little for it. In fact they brag about who does the least. I find it pretty disgusting but they aren't breaking the law but working the economic system we live in. Now I know that is not all the rich and some are innovative and creative but an awful lot aren't.

Orion

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ORIGINAL: cloudboy

The book, GUNS, GERMS, and STEEL argues persuavively that Eurasian civilizations have come to dominate the planet largely due to environmental factors. The resource rich and openly accesible Fertile Crescent was a catalyst for the rise of civilizations which held advantages other areas did not. Resources (horses, grains, pigs, cows, growing climate) lead to advanced agriculture which lead to population density which lead to writing, political organization, and specialty occupations and resistence to germs.

When Europeans landed in North and South America (and other places too) they introduced: smallpox, flu, tuberculosis, malaria, plague, measles, and chlorea. These diseases then decimated local populations by as much as 95%. Guns, Steel, and violence did the rest to push the natives and their local cultures aside.

In North and South America, the lack of horses, sheep, cows and other large domesticated animals kept farming behind the levels found in Eurasia. Also, North and South America as well as other places like Australia were geographically isolated from other civilizations --- so the diffusion of agricultural, technological, and other advances did not reach these ares. These areas, by corrollary, were unable to develop a resistence to Western germs.

As a result the languages, values, and political ways of Eurasia have come to dominate the globe.

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ORIGINAL: Padriag

Hate to spoil such a lovely bit of bickering with something as pedestrian as facts... but officially for 2006 the number of homeless in the US was 744,000.  According to the UN World Census, the US ranks lowest world wide for homelessness at 0.33 percent.

Among the US homeless, drug addiction is the leading cause.

The highest rates of homelessness were in Asia and Africa, where simple overpopulation was the leading cause.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

To become less than individuals means to give more control to government. Is this not what many socialistic and communistic leaders wished?

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

If you give up your personal freedoms and liberties (individuality) then you give up more control of your lives, who would take this control?

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Do you believe the US should stop involving themselves in other countries politics and such? If so, then does not aid to other countries also influence their politics in some shape or fashion?

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Other than your brother to use as a point of fact, do you have any others? If your brother is worth 6 million and not paying taxes, then he is either in tax shelters, which usually stimulate the economy, putting his profits in some type of IRA or other tax deferment, or he is a criminal.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Paying an accountant to do your taxes is actually not a smart thing. Paying a tax specialist to do your taxes is a smart thing. Hopefully the accountant is a tax specialist.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

We have a family business that does taxes, I have gotten to see firsthand how taxes are done and the amount of knowledge someone needs to be able to properly process taxes for individuals, LLP,LLC, Partnerships, Sole owners, S and C corps. Not only do you need the base knowledge but each year you need to go to the updates seminars and ask alot of questions to get the right answers. This is why with certainty I said the things I did. Also take into account that our tax business does more taxes for people that make less than $40k a year than those that make over, so I know how much poor people pay in taxes (none actually, unless someone stupid is doing their returns). So the ranting against the rich and the weepy eyes you have for the poor, in the posts you made, are nothing more than your opinions that seem to be founded in false information. Again I will state that I am open and interested if you have some actual facts or even informed opinion, to offer.

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ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice
I'm too tired to dive into this interesting thread seriously, but I can't resist sharing a quip from Mohandas Gandhi. Asked what he thought of western civilization he replied, "I think it would be a good idea."

Nitpicka that I am I think you missed out a bit...
I believe the quote should be.....
Western Civilisation ? would be a good idea, they should try it sometime.
Your welcome !

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Look what happened to the Mahatma, murdered by a Muslim moderate living in the tolerant Indian state.