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"Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/5/2007 6:34:05 PM

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"Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion"

By KATHLEEN MILLER, Associated Press Writer
Thu Apr 5, 2:22 PM ET

"GILLETTE, Wyo. - Leah Vader and Lynne Huskinson, a lesbian couple who got married in Canada last August, sent a letter recently to their state legislator decrying a Wyoming bill that would deny recognition of same-sex marriages. The lawmaker read the letter on the floor of the Legislature.

Soon after, the local paper interviewed the couple on Ash Wednesday and ran a story and pictures of them with ash on their foreheads, a mark of their Roman Catholic faith.

It wasn't long after that that the couple received a notice from their parish church telling them they have been barred from receiving Communion."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070405/ap_on_re_us/lesbians_communion;_ylt=AnAbKexRiWPQBIk2th7AJNtH2ocA

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RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/5/2007 6:50:18 PM

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i love catholicism. i love catholic church. i love attending catholic mass.

i get where the bishops, etc. are coming from. however...it either IS wrong or it ISN'T. it's not "it's only wrong if you publicize it." which is what is outright said at the end of the article. if you believe the shit's wrong, then i'm with these women - start banning every person who uses oral contraceptives, or every person who has premarital sex.

not to mention, just because they can't take communion (as per their bishop's orders), they should not be made to be afraid of going to church. i am not catholic, and i've attended catholic mass since i was probably 6 years old. i've never taken communion. i went through the first communion ceremony with everybody else in my grade during my time at catholic school, and nobody made me feel awful for not being able to take it. the fact that they are basically going to make a scene if they even show up at church just shows a lack of maturity and respect on the church's part.

this is a case of hypocrisy, which is all "don't ask don't tell" is, in my opinion. it's wrong when the military does it, and it's wrong when the catholic church does it. if you believe something, believe it, dammit. don't just believe it when it's out in public and not when it's done in private.

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RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/5/2007 9:45:05 PM

Aswad

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Indeed. One wonders when they'll start getting consistent on that point. Last thing I read, relationships were fine, but sex wasn't; this is based on a synthesis of the "go forth an multiply" and "shalt not lie with another man" verses, as I recall.

Whatever way they decide to go is fine, as far as I'm concerned, but being inconsistent about it isn't: either their faith regulates this, in which case it should be uniformly practiced, or it doesn't, in which case there's no grounds for any clergymen to mess with it.

Perhaps this couple should try to take the case to a higher authority within the church, in order to try to get an official ruling on it. Either the Catholic church accepts such couples, which would be a nice and progressive thing of them, or they don't, in which case it's the same as anything else they prohibit that people might want: decide which is more important, the faith, or the thing it is banning.

FWIW, there is a verse by, I think, Paul, where he states that faith and love are the two enduring things in this world, and that if a choice has to be made, love wins out. One hopes the church he founded will see it that way too, eventually, as the prohibitions in the bible appear to have more to do with cleanliness and the transmission of diseases than anything else. Yes, sex is a sacrament (at least I think that is both the Judaic and the Catholic stance), but that doesn't have to mean that it has to be bogged down with rules, just that it has to be something wonderful and spiritual to all parties involved.

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RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/6/2007 7:36:49 AM

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The hypocrisy of this situation is what bothers me the most.
These 2 women are in a long-term, monogamous marriage
and have never made a secret of it. In their situation, I would
be looking for another church or parish.

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RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/6/2007 7:39:47 AM

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Good insights, Aswad. I recommend the Unitarian Universalist
Church to GLBTQ folks looking for a much more accepting place of
worship.

Welcome to the boards,

Vendaval

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(in reply to Aswad)

RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/6/2007 8:44:46 AM

Aswad

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Thanks, Vendaval.

I get that there may be theologically legitimate reasons to oppose LGBT-relationships, but in this case it seems obvious that this was a response to the media attention, or to their political activism. Quite possibly some kind of reaction due to someone else in the parish complaining about the "issue" after being "alerted" to it by the media, or political pressure.

I actually have some respect for the Catholic church, in that they often have the integrity to stand by their faith, even when it is unpleasant or politically incorrect. But it is also a political institution of sorts, and a lot of ministers are pushing their own agendas over the one laid out centrally. Inconsistencies like this one, as well as a lot of scandals, don't help. Going to a different parish shouldn't have that much of an impact, but it does.

Just so that's clear, I'm all for LGBT-relationships, cisgendered marriage, etc.

Sincerely,
Aswad.

(in reply to Vendaval)

RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/6/2007 12:30:52 PM

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What is a "cisgendered" marriage?
Does that mean same-sex marriage?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Just so that's clear, I'm all for LGBT-relationships, cisgendered marriage, etc.

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RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/6/2007 6:13:35 PM

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While on the topic of double standards ...... Does the government have the right to force a church to do what the church dosent want to do? Does freedom of religion stop if we think the church shouldent be doing what its doing?

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RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/7/2007 12:29:04 AM

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The wonderful world of religious hipocracy...from the inventors of the Inquistion! Seems that none of this would have happened had these two women not shown the courage to stand up for their beliefs. Seems they have a belief in their faith. Wonder if the bishop washed his hands in fear of wrath...

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RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/7/2007 1:30:30 AM

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That is a whole other discussion, THT. Go ahead and start another
thread in the Off Topic Forum.

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RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/7/2007 6:10:41 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

What is a "cisgendered" marriage?
Does that mean same-sex marriage?

Yes. It's a PC term from various forms of medical / psychiatrical literature. It derives from "cis" (same), as opposed to "trans" (opposed/other). In chemistry, you'd say that something is a cis molecule if two reference points are on the same side of the molecule, or trans if they are on opposite sides. As for marriage, cisgender marriage means same-sex marriage, while transgender marriage is different-sex marriage.

Similarly, with regards to intersexuality and gender identity, you say cisgendered about someone who has the same physical sex as their gender identity, and transgendered about someone who has a different physical sex from their gender identity. With regards to trandsgendered, you could also say transsexual, I guess.

Sorry for the confusion. Hope this clears it up. Occupational hazard of reading too much medical and technical literature.

(in reply to Vendaval)

RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/7/2007 7:51:03 PM

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greetings thehungrytiger,

as far as i know, the catholic church has been one of the biggest on church sanctioned, enforced exclusion (whether that be what's happening here, or something as big as excommunication entirely). most other christian denominations either don't really practice this or are progressive enough that they wouldn't exclude somebody for being gay. i can't imagine the government actually stepping in and telling the church they can't exclude people...as far as i know, other groups (religious or not) have always had the right to include and exclude whom they wish.

however, since non-catholics can go to catholic church but not take communion, i doubt the church itself would actually come out and tell these women they can't come at all. their being kept away seems to me to be more like a political/press act by their particular parish (if they show up, it would cause a scene) than an actual sanction by the church. in reality, they could go to some parish where nobody knows them and take communion and no one would even be the wiser. i could go and take communion and no one would be the wiser, even though i'm not catholic.

just some observations coming from my experience with catholicism.

edited to add: one of the reasons i do not really find this too surprising (other than the comments that the only reason they did it was because it was publicly known) is that the church is simply officially telling these women to do something that the church believes they should have been doing already. unreformed, unrepentant sinners are supposed to refrain from taking communion anyway, baptized catholic or not. the church is basically telling these women, "we know you are unreformed, unrepentant sinners, and since you won't stop doing this, we're going to make you."

annabelle.

< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 4/7/2007 8:09:35 PM >

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RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/7/2007 10:51:30 PM

Aswad

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I would just like to point out a link to the people reading this thread. Please spread it to any open-minded Catholics, and particularly LGBT ones:

National Association of Catholic Diocesan Lesbian & Gay Minstries

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RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/8/2007 3:59:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval
.....sent a letter recently to their state legislator decrying a Wyoming bill .....

Oops, I didnt see that before. My fault. It is clear to me now that this topic has absoutly NOTHING to do with politics and any comments about the government are clearly off-topic.

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RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/8/2007 4:31:14 AM

vield

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Best run for pope if you wish to make significant change in the Catholic church. They make their own rules and enforce them. It is NOT a democracy.
There is a gay/lesbian catholic support group called "Dignity". Likely the couple would have more success with the episcopal support group, "Integrity".
A good friend was barred fron the catholic church after sexual reassignment surgery. She has gone up through many levels of the hierarchy trying to win acceptance, but the best she has gotten was that if she confesses she was wrong and promises to practice celebacy she might be allowed back in.

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RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/8/2007 8:05:35 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vield

Best run for pope if you wish to make significant change in the Catholic church. They make their own rules and enforce them. It is NOT a democracy.

If you want to make a significant change, the correct office is not pope. It is the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. Even the pope listens to them, most of the time, and the current pope was previously the leader for this congregation. Bear in mind that, to the Catholic faith, a pope is a representation of the divine on Earth, and is not supposed to say anything that isn't in line with the doctrine unless said pope has had a divine revelation to the contrary.

One assumes LGBT has no effect on the likelyhood of a divine revelation occuring.

And, no, it isn't a democracy. Many things aren't. I don't get why it is necessarily always a good thing, either, as humanity is one sum that is less than its parts. Whenever people form packs, whether they be social units or nations, they act less rationally and intelligently as a whole than the individual members do. I think this is why all currently practiced democracies are based on limiting the amount of damage any one term can do, rather than maximizing the amount of good.

Democracy became a fixture following the contrast-rethoric of WW2, where it was used as a contrast to fascism.

When you consider that democracy is not only allowing, but empowering, the majority to impose their will on the minority, that a revolution can only be accomplished by defeating the majority (arguably wrong), that major change is a case of a minority making a sustained effort over time to overcome the inertia of the majority, and that the majority contains enough conditioned beliefs that they will defend against the minority opinion... It's not a pretty picture. And it is not improved by the fact that mass media and such allow powerful groups to fortify their positions as powerful, as well as giving them disporportionate control over the majority.

quote:

A good friend was barred fron the catholic church after sexual reassignment surgery. She has gone up through many levels of the hierarchy trying to win acceptance, but the best she has gotten was that if she confesses she was wrong and promises to practice celebacy she might be allowed back in.

Yes, changing a majority opinion can be a challenge for a minority, or an individual. It only takes one correctly placed individual to change it for all, though. The previous pope was rather progressive; the current one is preserving the status quo until he dies, as he very definitely didn't want the position in the first place; the next one will most likely either be a coloured person, in which case we'll most likely see few big changes (as he'll likely be more concerned with not doing anything wrong than with doing something right, in order that more coloured people be considered for positions in the church in the future), or he'll be someone progressive, in which case we will see changes; after that, a progressive pope is exceedingly likely, and we'll see further changes.

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RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/8/2007 2:06:58 PM

HisProperty4Life

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hmmm maybe the priest's should be denied as well? hmmm?

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RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/9/2007 10:47:40 AM

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If these women had an understanding of their faith - why would they want to recieve communion? The church isn't about to change it's 1000s year old doctrine. If you wanna be a member, then by all means do so, follow their rules. If you can't it's a free world - find another church, there's plenty out there.

< Message edited by velvetears -- 4/9/2007 10:48:49 AM >

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RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/9/2007 10:57:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

If these women had an understanding of their faith - why would they want to recieve communion? The church isn't about to change it's 1000s year old doctrine. If you wanna be a member, then by all means do so, follow their rules. If you can't it's a free world - find another church, there's plenty out there.

Yanno, this is along the lines of what I have wondered since first reading this thread. Granted, I am not, nor will I ever be, catholic. It is on my hard limits list for sure. BUT, I know that IF I was my faith would definately end should the very core of who I am be something the church denied.

Last I knew, to be a member of a church it is kinda sorta expected that you give them some $$. Now, if I understand this particular issue correctly they were not told they could not be members of the church, they were just refused communion. That right there would raise my ire. Sure I can be a member, my money is not too evil for you but I am too evil to participate in all the proper religous hoohaa?? Me and my $$ would be outta there so fast their spiffy front doors would have turned into revolving doors.

BUT, I am also not a fan of organized religoun and just kinda don't get the whole thrill or need. It's just my personal thing and it is obvious there is a whole big part of it that does matter to alot of people that I don't see myself.

So yeah, IF I was a good church going type person I would definately be telling that particular avenue of faith to kiss my big fat white hiney and looking for one that accepting all of me, instead of just the parts that served their purposes.

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RE: "Lesbian couple in Wyoming denied Communion" - 4/10/2007 12:22:41 AM

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i was raised catholic - catholic school till 3rd grade and all that comes with it, i don't buy into organized religion as such anymore but i do understand the basis of their beliefs. To recieve communion you have to be in a state of grace - not be in sin, so if the church considers homosexuality sinful, and these women want to be together and (according to the church) live in sin it is sacriledge to recieve communion. If you carry any sin you are not suppossed to recieve communion, this is why there is confession before you are to recieve communion. To be a catholic wouldn't you have to believe in what they preach? Or at least have the respect to accept the consequences (not recieve communion). i just don't understand people bangining on a door that's never going to be open to them.

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