RE: refusing to use safeword (Full Version)

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LadyHugs -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/9/2007 2:02:56 PM)

Dear CreativeOwner18, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
In my mind's eyes I see, there are factually all kinds of individuals for many justified reasons, who cannot and will not safe word or safe signal.
 
Unfortunately, in the latest trends of the lifestyle and or BDSM in general, the required submission of potential Dominants/Masters often unraveled the mysteries of sub-space/flying to where some go out into subspace easily to extremely difficult and all the levels in between.  The languages of the World often fail to properly put into text form or the spoken word what needs to be said in these experiences.  It is often then met in silence as no words define the rapture in subspace/flying.  So, those never having such an experience being Dominant right off the bat, have to triple the effort in learning the subtle changes the body goes through, to include color and temperature changes and breathing rates.
 
A person can be in a dream state and be in an out of body experience.  The mind is an extremely powerful force, just like the emotions.  The sense of awareness or being is often skewed--this causing a slave to be helpless in being able to explain their situation and how a Dominant (you) relate.  Once you realize a slave can be holding a rational conversation with you and be in such high out of body  experience in subspace/flying--they will never know what was said as their minds split into two different worlds.  This is why safe words and safe signals can fail.
 
Safe words and safe signals are tools.  Most understand them to be safety emergency brakes however, its known fact that sometimes emergency safety brakes fail.
 
It is wiser to have scenes that never breech a level beyond a Dominant's own level of skills and knowledge.  It would be no different than not over driving your headlights in unfamiliar territory.
This is why, when a slave is in a subspace/flying be it a bit of a buzz or full blown out of body like rapture; you treat them as unable to care for themselves.  This is the time you need for them to go back into their body, their surroundings and instead of flying in space with stars and globes, above mountains where eagles dare, in trees and in other regions--they need to come back down to Earth and you never leave them floating alone, unteathered or unguarded.
 
Subspace/flying can last for minutes after the scene, hours..days, weeks.  Each person experiences subspace differently each time.  None will have repeats.  Some use subspace as a metaphysical teleport, some use it to revisit time and places--even people.  Some use it as catharsis and some use it to play with pain or pleasure.
 
There can be no joy in punishing a slave who has no control of her own body, once it is into a state outside of self awareness and recognition.  I would hope apologies would be offered and communication in how better to understand the silent world of subspace/flying where words fail to describe it.
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 
 



AquaticSub -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/9/2007 3:54:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeOwner18

In my experinces as a dom ive ran across a few subs that refuse to use a safeword when they are beyond there limits because they are trying to please me regardless of how much they are suffering. I mean i could cut off there arm with a meat cleaver and they would offer there other one up to be chopped off as well instead of using a safe word.

I have to persuade them and coach them, almost pressure them into using there safeword and they always say it with such displeasure, like they are failing me. Its so hard to train these some into accepting there are limits and they have the right to use the word when they need to and not go beyond what they can handle.

am i the only one whom has encountered this problem? does anyone have any suggestions for these situations?



You aren't the only one who has encountered this problem. Frankly, I don't play with anyone who won't respect a safeword while scening with me. It's something I make clear up front and if a man wouldn't use one well... he wouldn't be my dominant. I have never actually used mine, I just insist on having one in case. I don't think there can too many safety procautions. Especially when it's as easy to put in place as a safeword. Perhaps you could try them on the traffic light system, stressing that yellow is not a stop, just a slow down. If all fails, remind them that you want them to use their safe word if they need it. If they do not do so, then they are disobeying and failing you.

I can understand the drive to never safeword, but I think it's misguided. For me a safeword helps me to protect Valyraen's property (me). He doesn't want me to get hurt. If I get injured because I didn't tell him that things were going too hard/too fast/too anything, then I didn't serve him very well. While he has a responsiblity to know my limits and what I can handle, I have a responsiblity to tell him what those limits are.



onmykneesforhim -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/9/2007 4:00:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeOwner18

In my experinces as a dom ive ran across a few subs that refuse to use a safeword when they are beyond there limits because they are trying to please me regardless of how much they are suffering.>>>>>>>>
>>>> go beyond what they can handle.

am i the only one whom has encountered this problem? does anyone have any suggestions for these situations?


  Some of us just can not safeword. Trusting a Master is just the begining. I believe safewords came out with the invention of the computer. It ended up replacing responsiblity for a slave.
MO only.



Elorin -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/9/2007 7:26:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: onmykneesforhim
Some of us just can not safeword. Trusting a Master is just the begining. I believe safewords came out with the invention of the computer. It ended up replacing responsiblity for a slave.
MO only.

Safewords existed before the internet did - and probably long before computers did. And they don't replace responsibility for a slave. They are a tool, nothing more, nothing less. Dominants shouldn't rely on the safe word and ignore other signals from the sub anymore than subs should say "I'm safe, I have a safeword" and ignore warning signs about unhealthy, dangerous Doms.
~E



Elorin -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/9/2007 7:30:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
CBT == Cognitive Behavioural Therapy;

Thank you for this, I'll have to look it up.
quote:

DBT == Dialectical Behavioural Therapy;

This is also used for DID - Disassociative Identity Disorder, which is the (or was a few years back) name for multiple personalities. The lessons taught, as they were passed to me second hand by someone who benefitted a HUGE amount from it, could be used by most that I encounter. The entire program might not be necessary for everyone. ~Lol~

I too have given serious thought to counseling as a profession, though currently haven't pursued any school or training for it. The world needs more kink friendly professionals of all types.
~E



MDJour -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/9/2007 7:31:49 PM)

I had a very young one under me this w/e. He exhibited body language that The Master said He'd never seen before. I read them and then act appropriately. That's all anyone can do.
Most Graciously,
Mistress V.



Aswad -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/9/2007 8:25:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elorin

quote:

DBT == Dialectical Behavioural Therapy;

This is also used for DID - Disassociative Identity Disorder, which is the (or was a few years back) name for multiple personalities. The lessons taught, as they were passed to me second hand by someone who benefitted a HUGE amount from it, could be used by most that I encounter. The entire program might not be necessary for everyone.


I was not aware that it was used with DID. There's a lot of controversy about DID itself, anyway. BPD is the main indication, although I agree that there are elements that can be beneficial to most people. For me, I get most of that from my Martial Arts and the related mental/spiritual exercises and philosophy.

quote:

I too have given serious thought to counseling as a profession, though currently haven't pursued any school or training for it. The world needs more kink friendly professionals of all types.


My concern is simple: it will take me 10 years to complete such an education, due to the ass-backwards way the Norwegian M.D. certification process is set up: first you have 7 years learning to be a general practicioner, then you get to do 3 years studying psychiatry as a specialization.

We're looking into getting a dispensation for folding the two studies together into 4 years by cross-scheduling lectures across classes and cutting the ones that aren't relevant. I mean, sure, I need to know about the heart, but do I really need to know how to effectively treat acne or perform a digital rectal exam? (Yes, I am aware that it is more complicated than that)

If it pans out, I'll be the second or third kink-friendly professional in Norway.



AquaticSub -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/9/2007 8:32:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elorin

quote:

ORIGINAL: onmykneesforhim
Some of us just can not safeword. Trusting a Master is just the begining. I believe safewords came out with the invention of the computer. It ended up replacing responsiblity for a slave.
MO only.

Safewords existed before the internet did - and probably long before computers did. And they don't replace responsibility for a slave. They are a tool, nothing more, nothing less. Dominants shouldn't rely on the safe word and ignore other signals from the sub anymore than subs should say "I'm safe, I have a safeword" and ignore warning signs about unhealthy, dangerous Doms.
~E


From my limited research, safewords have been in place long before the internet community rose up.



MDJour -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/9/2007 8:35:26 PM)

To be certain, and although I am somewhat of an edge player, however,  if a traditional safeword were ever muttered, I would honor it.



IrishMist -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/9/2007 8:40:31 PM)

~~ fast reply ~~

for some, its not about refusing to use a safeword; but rather being unable to [&:]



WhiplashSmile -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/10/2007 12:16:46 AM)

If you know your sub/slave well, then you should be able to guage where they are at.  Yes, you may from time to time push past their own limits.  Some subs wish to be pushed past the limit in order to please their Dom/me.  If they call out a safeword some feel they have failed in being pushed past the limit.  Call it hard headed sub syndrome if you must.  The point is any sub/slave worth a damn does not want to fail.  Actually some would rather take another 1000 flogger lashes than call out a safeword.   Also, it's a little hard for a sub with a ball gag shoved in their mouth to speak as well.   Also, once a sub hits subspace, they tend to be tuned out the current universe and be in a whole different space while you are having your way with them.   They can't speak because they are simply lost in subspace.  I've always stressed the use of safewords, however very seldom have I ever heard it from a subs mouth.   Whenever I felt or questioned I was pushing past their limits, I simply stop and checkup on them.

A Dom/me should never leave it up to a sub/slave to end a scene play!  The Dom/me is the one who calls that shot.  If you are pushing a subs limits and expect them to break down and use the safeword to end it, then I feel you should rethink about this in Great depth.  You are in charge, you are in control.  It's not your submissives place to end a scene. 

If you are aware you are exceeding their limits a lot, and you are trying to push them into speaking or screaming out a safeword to end it.  You better start to rethinking the lines bewteen scene play.. getting out of control to the point that it can mentally and physically do your submissive damage.  You are trying to push or drive them into failure.   In my book this border line to being abusive. 



ExtremeOwnerIL -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/10/2007 5:19:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
Why would you ever push beyond what they could handle?


Exploring the boundaries and testing the limits and capabilities are what some of us do.

In  those situations, caution, risk awareness, trust and communication both verbal and nonverbal have to take place. If my girl and I are edge playing, my awareness and concentration on her is extremely high and each step is taken both with joy and caution.

It's amazing what one will discover that they can and can't handle, on both sides of the whip, so to speak.

Regards,
EO



ownedgirlie -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/10/2007 9:45:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExtremeOwnerIL
It's amazing what one will discover that they can and can't handle, on both sides of the whip, so to speak.

Regards,
EO



And I absolutely agree with you.  However, when I think of "can't handle" I think of sending someone to the psyche ward because it truly was emotionally/mentally too much for them.  I take those words literally.  I have been pushed to the point where I thought my mind would crack, and it took me a long time to come back from it.  But I could handle it....with his help.  This person said he would push her beyond what she could handle.  And to me that means destroying someone.

Then again, I take things too literally sometimes.



ExtremeOwnerIL -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/10/2007 11:42:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
And I absolutely agree with you.  However, when I think of "can't handle" I think of sending someone to the psyche ward because it truly was emotionally/mentally too much for them.  I take those words literally.  I have been pushed to the point where I thought my mind would crack, and it took me a long time to come back from it.  But I could handle it....with his help.  This person said he would push her beyond what she could handle.  And to me that means destroying someone.

Then again, I take things too literally sometimes.


Yes, it sounds like something one would take with their experiences in mind.

That's a good point that should always be emphasized - it takes two (or more) to make the journey, it takes as many to come back.

Regards,
EO



Aswad -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/10/2007 3:10:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExtremeOwnerIL

It's amazing what one will discover that they can and can't handle, on both sides of the whip, so to speak.


Indeed. And this doesn't only apply to D/s. I always thought I was a wimp as far as pain was concerned. Then I experienced real pain a few times, and realized that it's just that I need the right frame of mind, or proper motivation. After that realization, I haven't run up against any limits with regard to my own pain.




Aswad -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/10/2007 3:18:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

And I absolutely agree with you.  However, when I think of "can't handle" I think of sending someone to the psyche ward because it truly was emotionally/mentally too much for them.  I take those words literally.  I have been pushed to the point where I thought my mind would crack, and it took me a long time to come back from it.  But I could handle it....with his help.  This person said he would push her beyond what she could handle.  And to me that means destroying someone.

Then again, I take things too literally sometimes.


In this case, I think it might be a too literal interpretation. I tried to point out the difference earlier to Celeste43, as I too think we're talking about going beyond the "usual" limits, not going beyond The Limit(tm) or, for that matter, what has been agreed upon.

That said, you don't necessarily destroy someone from crossing The Limit(tm), either, but that is razor-edge play, and if you're both ready for that, you already know it, and this isn't the forum for that, I think.

Usually, if you cross The Limit(tm), people will dissociate, AFAIK. That is negative either way, as it likely requires professional care to recover from, and can become a reflexive response to lower levels of pain as well. It's how some people manage to pull through real torture, as I understand it: they dissociate once, and then they've "learned the trick" so to speak, and start doing it whenever they feel pain, making them essentially impossible to get to through pain alone.

Then again, I'm not an expert on torture and the response to it. I haven't had any need for or use for that information yet, thankfully. My ability to dissociate comes from training, not exceeding limits.



lorddividian -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/10/2007 3:49:26 PM)

I simply refuse to play with anyone that does not have a safeword.

Rules to live by
Safe, Sane, Concentual .... and te SANE is the biggest part of that.



ownedgirlie -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/10/2007 5:51:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
That said, you don't necessarily destroy someone from crossing The Limit(tm), either, but that is razor-edge play, and if you're both ready for that, you already know it, and this isn't the forum for that, I think.

Usually, if you cross The Limit(tm), people will dissociate, AFAIK. That is negative either way, as it likely requires professional care to recover from, and can become a reflexive response to lower levels of pain as well. It's how some people manage to pull through real torture, as I understand it: they dissociate once, and then they've "learned the trick" so to speak, and start doing it whenever they feel pain, making them essentially impossible to get to through pain alone.



I have reread the original statement I was referring to and I see I misinterpreted it.  He said "pushing beyond there [sp] limits."  Which is different than handling or not handling something.  Hmm, not sure where I came up with that......maybe it was my meds.  Yeah, I'll go with that... [;)]



grlneedstolearn -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/10/2007 9:09:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeOwner18

In my experinces as a dom ive ran across a few subs that refuse to use a safeword when they are beyond there limits because they are trying to please me regardless of how much they are suffering. I mean i could cut off there arm with a meat cleaver and they would offer there other one up to be chopped off as well instead of using a safe word.

I have to persuade them and coach them, almost pressure them into using there safeword and they always say it with such displeasure, like they are failing me. Its so hard to train these some into accepting there are limits and they have the right to use the word when they need to and not go beyond what they can handle.

am i the only one whom has encountered this problem? does anyone have any suggestions for these situations?



Nope i was the same way until me Dom told me that if  i go beyond my limits and don't tell him to "stop" than i will be punished. That and also he is teaching me to say no when i need to. Hope this helps a little bit



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