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slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 5:13:08 AM   
kisshou


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Joined: 2/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kinkypupper

A True slave has given the gift of "self" to her/his master..
There can be no greater gift then that.
There are not many in this world who know who they really are inside.
Slaves are indeed very rare..
Doms are not so rare
Wannabees .. well we are up to our necks in them.

So if you are indeed a true slave you have a value greater then anything on this earth to your Master.




i totally disagree with everything stated above. To me, a Master gives the slave a gift by allowing the slave to serve Him......
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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 5:31:51 AM   
BobcatsLilMinx


Posts: 201
Joined: 4/8/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		I see it as a two way thing - like Christmas.

Master gives me several gifts every day, just letting me know him, be with him, by supporting me, encouraging me... and of course, allowing me to call him "Master" is an amazing gift, absolutely wonderful...
But in the same vein, I think when I give him my trust, and call him Master, and give him everything that I am, honestly, without lies or pretence... .well, I think from his perspective that must be a gift too.

All relationships need to work on a give-and-take basis, surely? I give my submission... he takes it, and gives me his mastery in return, his collar. Works both ways, no?

Respectfully,
Minx

(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 5:41:09 AM   
darkinshadows


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Whilst I do not wish to comment on a persons words that are quoted in a different context to the original post...(IMO, not particularly polite to the origianal poster, and I do not see why a seperate post has to be made - maybe enlighten me?) I will reply with my thoughts on the words issued by kisshou...

I do not believe in gifts full stop.
Why is something a gift, when it is a natural occurence?
IMO, it is just another way of 'dressing up' BDSM as something better than everything else.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 5:42:19 AM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		i agree whit Minx, like all relationships a D/s one is both one of giving and resiving. The service a slave provide is most certinly a gift, so is his or her love and dedication, but the love and dedication of the Master and that he provide a setting for the slave to live our her desires is a gift to. If the relationship is a good one and the dynamic flow smoothly, Master and slave will comple and enhance one another.

(in reply to BobcatsLilMinx)
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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 6:14:43 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		We don't just give submission away, we express our submission, in a very structured way and ONLY after agreeing, ONLY after setting up expectations.

You can say how great a gift it is to be with eachother, but to me, being a slave is no more a gift than being bisexual, it's just me. And my relationship might be a blessing in my life, but its very hard work and pressure and dull and everything else..it's life.

To call it a gift is a nice romantic metaphor, but that's all.

(in reply to nella)
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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 7:22:08 AM   
nella


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Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		Yes but then, nice romantic metaphor make everything so mutch more romantic. But then that is just me, i am the romantic type.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 7:31:15 AM   
ProtagonistLily


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Joined: 12/27/2004
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quote:

Yes but then, nice romantic metaphor make everything so mutch more romantic. But then that is just me, i am the romantic type.


Could you explain to me the relevence of your statement with regard to the idea of slavery being a gift?

L

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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 7:34:01 AM   
nella


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Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		Emerlad said it was only a metahpor, i answerd that a metahpor could be werry nice somtimes.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 8:13:44 AM   
darkinshadows


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I am extremely romantic... lol... but I do not see how the metaphor of a gift is romantic.
BDSM is made to seem overly romantic sometimes. There are perceptions of how much 'better' it is than 'vanilla' relationships. How a sub is always a sub, no matter what... and MUST act a certain way, else they are not 'sub enough'...

A gift is something given, without need of thanks, without anything expected in return, and not always appriciated.

I do not see how the metaphor for a gift is the correct one for either Domiantion or submission.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to nella)
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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 8:19:45 AM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		i agree whit on on that D/s is often overly romantified dark~angel, but it is not realy that kind of romatisem i mean. i mean the roses and candelight dinner kind of romantic, the personal kind, not the stereotype kind. And that some pepole are considerd not sub enough becouse they are not acting so and so, that i think is stupid. What submission is for a person, that person desides for themself.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 9:16:12 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline 		I agree with Emerald and Angel in that I don't believe my service or my nature is a gift.
I believe it is a personality trait.I believe a gift is something given without desire for reciprocation, and that submission, as part of a relationship, requires reciprocation.

That is, even in a total service relationship, the submissive party is getting fufilment from serving. The relationship is providing the servant something he/she needs. I believe that a gift is given without that expectation. When I give a birthday present, the most I expect is a "thank you." In my relationship, I expect to have my needs fufilled, even if that need is to loose myself utterly in my partner. As I see it, that negates "gift."

I am inherantly submissive because it's who I am. I know that isn't how it works for everything, but that's how it happened with me. It is as inherant as my love of books, my pansexuality and my blue eyes.

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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 9:36:18 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

So if you are indeed a true slave you have a value greater then anything on this earth to your Master.


this seems like a no-brainer, sort of like these:

...to someone looking for a "true" Picasso, it has more value than a copy.

....if you are truly "white" you have a value greater than anything to your KKK buddies.

...if you are truly a multi-billionaire you have a value greater than anything on this earth to a gold-digger.

...if you are truly Italian, you have a value greater than anything on this earth to somone who absolutely adores Italians.

How about using true as a verb, not an adjective..... if you are "TRUE" to your Master, as in HONEST, AUTHENTIC, communicative, respectful, not just "playing a role" when you are together but sincerely comfortable in your place at His feet and your service to Him.

Still romantic, but now it is something one can "DO", an activity a slave can participate in, instead of a trait one inherently "IS", like Italian, or not.

(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 9:58:14 AM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		perverseangelic i like your respone, and i belive you hit on somting of the essence of what we are discussing here. Romanticaly we can all love, submission, Dominance and so on gifts, but in realy they are a somthing we give ourself. At least that is how i understand you post, i can be totaly out in the blue ofcourse.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 10:35:35 AM   
stormsfate


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Joined: 2/1/2005
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quote:

Definition of gift: "Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation."


First, I am not a submissive, I'm property. Second, if I were a submissive, my submission wouldn't be a gift, as I would expect something in return (i.e. to be dominated...to be spanked..to have limits respected...to have my needs fulfilled, etc.) By definition alone, submission is not a gift and if I presented that idea to my owner ("Oh Master...my submission is a gift and you need to honor and cherish that gift") he would laugh in my face.


Just my input into yet another round of the "submission is a gift" thread.


best regards,
fate




_____________________________

Vision? What do you know about MY vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions and the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you! Now ask yourself, are you really ready to see that vision? [/size

(in reply to nella)
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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 12:48:34 PM   
BobcatsLilMinx


Posts: 201
Joined: 4/8/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		Interesting to see other people's points of views, but I still see it as a gift.

Every friendly smile you get from a stranger on the street can be a gift. Every song you ever hear a dawn bird sing can be called a gift.

Taking things for granted is sometimes where humans fall, in my opinion. I am submissive person in general. And to a stressed mother of two, I believe my shy smile when I step back and let them get on a bus in front of me counts as a "gift". Certainly nothing to lie awake at night thanking God about, but something I was able to give.

When my Master accepted my submission, that was a gift beyond anything else he could ever have given. When we're apart and I'm home alone and he calls to speak to me, thats a gift too. And I "give" him all that I can. I don't expect him to "cherish" and be eternally grateful for everything that I give, but it is a heartfelt gift, all the same. And I don't believe that giving something means you expect anything in return. I give because it is in my nature to do so. Sure, it's lovely to get something back, but I don't see it as my "right". So then when I do, I count myself as doubly lucky.

I try not to take things for granted. I see life as a long string of "gifts" of one kind or another. Maybe thats just my mindset. I think a lot of people would feel like that if they thought about it. I don't know. I just know that every day that I wake up and know myself loved and wanted is a gift. And my Master gives me that. I have no reason to believe that my ability to give him the same counts as less of a gift.

Sincerely,
Minx

(in reply to stormsfate)
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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 1:01:38 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Minx perhaps this will help your perspective, you mentioned the other day you were having some troubles with your dom and difficulties.

You see a smile and sweet things you do as a gift to others. But what if your dom never smiled or answered back? What if he only told you to shut up and keep your eyes down and never hugged you or said thank you?

You can obviously say "well that's not who he is" which would be true. HOWEVER- would you be happy if he never did any of those things?

You expect things from him, you build a relationship with him, a smile and a nice favor is one thing and I'm sure you DO do things for your dom without expectations.

But I also guess you do have a lot of expectations for your dom and would not "give your gift" so willingly unless he reciprocated.

(in reply to BobcatsLilMinx)
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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 1:07:04 PM   
DesertRat


Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
Status: offline 		I'm feeling a bit of a philosophical lightweight today, but here's my bit:

I give her what I do because I want her to have it. She gives to me because she wants to give. We just keep it flowing back and forth in a constant exchange. I love what she gives and she pleases me very much. She is happy with what I give her. So, that tells me I've found the right one, finally....or we have both found the right ones...and the gifting just happens naturally. We don't talk about it...just happens. I know she's with me because she wants to be. That's a gift.

Bob

(in reply to BobcatsLilMinx)
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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 1:33:54 PM   
BobcatsLilMinx


Posts: 201
Joined: 4/8/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		Hi Emerald;

Not having any problems with Master at all, its the rest of my life that resembles Hiroshima at the moment...

quote:

But what if your dom never smiled or answered back? What if he only told you to shut up and keep your eyes down and never hugged you or said thank you?


Sounds like my parents *laughs* "May I go the bathroom?" "Shut up and sit down".

Out of curiosity, would you be happy in this sort of relationship?

"Thank you" is never expected, hugs are definitely a privilidge and something to be very grateful for... but ok, I do get your point, I have expectations of my Master based on what he has shown me I can expect from him. By getting to know him, by talking to him, I've come to expect a certain behaviour from him. If that changed tomorrow.... well, I'd be surprised.

I've given to a lot of people who never reciprocated. Afoermentioned parents for two. You're right, something this big, my whole self, I couldn't give without the knowledge that it would be taken care of. But thats common sense, and self preservation, surely? Are there any other subs that would do it differently?

Curious,
Minx

(in reply to DesertRat)
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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 2:43:49 PM   
darkinshadows


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From: UK
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If I smile, I do so because it is who I am. It is something I enjoy doing. Its wonderful to receive a smile back, but not the reason I smiled.

If I give a gift, I give so to make someone smile. To maybe feel wanted and thought of. To feel remembered. To celebrate. Never to gain anything... never to get a thankyou or recognition.

If I submit, I do so to please... I don't expect thankyous, but I do expect a return. Whether thats something from the receiver or something from my own self... ie the satisfaction gained and received from being allowed to submit... it is still a gain.

I gain freedom to be.

To Demon, I give myself. I do not expect gratitude in return. I do it because He allows it, because I am allowed to be who I am without guilt, without judgement, without loathing. Because I am to receive, again freedom.

However one looks at it... Domination and submission when given, gain in some way or another. A gift is given freely, otherwise it isn't a gift, just a bribe.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to BobcatsLilMinx)
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RE: slavery a gift??? - 4/18/2005 4:58:11 PM   
lil1v


Posts: 125
Joined: 4/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel


A gift is something given, without need of thanks, without anything expected in return, and not always appriciated.




well then.. to argue from your point of view.. true.. its not a gift.. but then in reality there is no "real gifts"..

I dont think I've ever given a gift without any expectations. I give money to charity, I expect that charity to use the money wisely and see that my money goes to aid someone. And I get a little "warm fuzzy" for helping others from it too.

I've given change to beggars. I expect a little appreciation for it. I also expect that it helps them and I get little warm fuzzies for doing it.

I give gifts to family and friends. I expect a small gesture of appreciation.. if for nothing else that I thought of them.

I also can't think of a gift I was given that was completely selfless. I did get some used speakers from a friend of mine once. But he was moving and didn't want to pack them.

I am cynical on human nature really. I don't think anyone ever does anything without taking into consideration themselves. People do things because they get something out of it. Something worth what they're putting into it, or they won't do it anymore.

Hell even Pavlov's research would prove that.

_____________________________

V



(in reply to darkinshadows)
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