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RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 12:17:26 PM

Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mythi
Just because someone wants you to hurt them, doesn't mean you should hurt them.

I can't believe I am hearing this on a bdsm forum by people who want others to hurt
them. You are aware that many female bottoms want their top to make them feel pain?
Are you saying tops are wrong in hurting bottoms? I can't believe my ears.

> And when I say hurt I mean injure, not just inflict pain.

What kind of injury? Why does there have to be injury?
Why isn't inflicting pain better than nothing?

> And when you direct negative energy at someone, esp when
> they're very vulnerable, you ARE injuring them.

This is exactly what vanilla people say about people who practice
bdsm!!!!!!!!

> You are victimizing them, regardless of whether or not they
> want you to or enjoy it.

Do you realizing what you are saying. You just condemned the whole
bdsm community?

> And by coercing the sub into inflicting this damage,

Who is coercing anyone into doing anythning? My God. Aren't you
attributing to me something I never said?

> you're victimizing her too by making her a co-conspirator and perpetrator.

So, bottoms victimize their tops by coercing them to tie them up and flog them?

> Just what this worlds needs, huh?

Yeah, it is what the world needs. If only more people released their anger this
way, there would more more satisified male masochists and calmer, less tense
subs.

> Time and energy would be better spent helping both the sub and masochist in
> this scenario to feel better about themselves and less like they deserve to be
> re-victimized.

No one is being re-victimized. Both are getting a release.

_____________________________

(in reply to mythi)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 12:17:35 PM

Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
Status: offline

Greetings

I am not a masochist, nor a sadist, nor a top, nor a bottom, nor a survivor of abuse of any kind. Yet, I am following this thread with a great deal of interest.

I may be out of line, but this is the first time I will not apologize for being so.

I can not believe that someone who claims to love life and all that within it would even contemplate, much less, actively DO; what you are suggesting here.

Anger is unpredictable; and once unleashed, there is no way to keep it channeled and focused.

Revenge is self-serving and destructive for all involved. It can not bring closure to a person; all it does is give momentary satisfaction that later re-manifests itself back into anger.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what a masochist is; but I have never heard one say that they wish for pain that is brought about in anger.

Any certified, degreed, moral therapist would never suggest what you are suggesting. Any rational human being would never suggest what you are suggesting.

I think I have said too much already.

I wish you well

melissa

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 12:28:58 PM

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jaunty, it doesn't take an expert to see what comes down to flawed logic. I know you don't need my permission for your post, but you certainly have my appreciation...I'm having trouble putting words to an argument here. There are just so many problems with this scenario...I just don't know where to start.

_____________________________

~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to jauntyone)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 12:29:37 PM

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Joined: 12/2/2004
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Whip the Hip...

Doll, you are just wrong on this.

Remember the mantra... safe, sane and consensual....

It is not safe to have someone act out a 'scene' in reaction to a previous victimization, not to you, not to them.

It is not sane to have someone act out a 'scene' in reaction to a previous victimization, this I will say most specifically for them... you keep avoiding the fact that I work with abusers and the abused... it's what I do... you for some reason, do not want to understand that this is not good for them, even if it smarts your ass ever so loverly.

Even if it is consensual.. it does not negate those first two clauses.... The very basis of BDSM is founded upon the idea that the people who top, dominate, master.. .what ever label floats your boat, are in control... first and foremost of themselves, then the situation at hand and to what ever degree you surrender, to the person they are directly over.

What you do not seem to understand is that a person REACTING to previous trauma to engage in a simulation of revenge is a person out of control, on several levels.

You may want the pleasure you get from someone going apeshit on your ass... it does not mean it is good for them, or that even if it feels good for you this time, that it won't somewhere down the line, get way out of hand and cause further harm to you and them.

How hard is that to understand? This lifestyle is not just about getting the crap knocked out of you because it makes you hard, believe it or not.

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 12:31:10 PM

Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip
I can't believe I am hearing this on a bdsm forum by people who want others to hurt
them. You are aware that many female bottoms want their top to make them feel pain?
Are you saying tops are wrong in hurting bottoms? I can't believe my ears.

I'm sorry that you honestly don't seem to understand the difference between healthy BDSM play and the can of worms that gets opened when you try to work out serious rage, trauma and abuse issues by hitting people.

BDSM play can be useful and even therapeutic. But if your partner has a broken leg with the bone shattered and sticking out, you don't try to treat it at home by pouring chamomile tea into the wound. You get your ass to the hospital and let the professionals deal with it. You are likely to cause more harm and injury if you mess around with that serious a wound by yourself, with no qualifications, no training and no professional tools.

Likewise, if your partner has a very serious psychological issue, it's not necessarily the best idea to try to mess with it at home using BDSM play. I do know of some folks who have helped themselves and others work through past issues with BDSM, but it's a touchy business and there is significant risk of things not working so well and possibly causing more harm and damage.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 12:32:46 PM

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Joined: 11/19/2006
Status: offline

it seems that you are under the impression that yor way is the best way...
you are going by what you say you have done ..
but not all survivors of abuse are the same...
some of us....get on with life....have kids treat their counterpart not with anger but with respect and love...
taking revenge out on someone is never good.....
if you take out revenge on someone else for what was done to you...you are in a sense just as bad as the person that did it to you....so why would you want to make yourself feel like that....

(in reply to Najakcharmer)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 12:34:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie
I'm not a sadist.

You don't have to be to release your anger on a masochist.

This is something I've been doing for ten years with good results had by all.
***EVERY*** sub who went through this had the same fears expressed by
those here. By the time it was over, they all wanted to do it again only taking
things further the second time around.

Survivors always want to know, "Why?" They need to be assured it was
not their fault, that nothing they did would have mattered. Many get what
they always wanted but never got: an apology by their perp and ultimately
his understanding of the pain he put them through. They want him to feel
their pain. These sessessions are often very emotional and cathartic, and
sometimes end with both of us crying but also feeling better.

The funny thing is none of the survivors I have done this with were into
bdsm or even knew it existed.

_____________________________

(in reply to sublizzie)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 12:37:07 PM

Posts: 572
Joined: 10/19/2006
From: Arkansas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

I know some females in the scene were badly mistreated
by some male at some point in their life. I don't get
why they seem to have little interest in acting out some
kind of role playing revenge fantasy. Some say they
are afraid of losing control and going too far, but there
could always be a third party present to prevent that
from happening. I would think that would be theraputic.
Yet, survivors shy away from such a role reversal
dramatization. I know if I was a female and a victim
of abuse, I know I would to channel my anger onto some
male.

I have kept really quiet through out this thread. I have disagreed with you in your threads before. I really didn't want to do it again. But I do have some questions about what you are stating here.

one, are you a licensed ......anything (meaning do you have some sort of degree in working with abused persons)

two, honestly how many victums have you done this too and how many truely came back with a postive responce?

three, how many times are you suggesting a victum do these "acting outs"

I have been "slightly" on the receiving end of abuse. As a child and few times as an adult. I cannot see myself doing this let alone having it help me. I have moved on, and I don't want to re-experience anything like it again. I feel as so many have stated that it's better to try to put the past behind you and get over it. If you do not let that go it will eat at you and "ghost" around inside your head until you do. I'm having a hard time understanding how this could possiably help.

Also, being of submissive thinking, I am not the sort to seek revenge. I have been upset before and screaming into pillows, kicking the crap out of punching bags and some good old fashioned "talking it out" with friends do wonders for a perplexed soul. Revenge doesn't help, plus I just can't find it in me to do (even when given the chance a time or two)

I feel sometimes you make assumptions, truely thinking that you have it correct. However, you have had several abuse survivors tell you that is not how they see it. Perhaps, THAT is worth thinking about as well?

:)

< Message edited by drawntothedark -- 4/12/2007 12:41:52 PM >

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 12:46:04 PM

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Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

Are you a social worker, clinician, psycho-therapist, registered facilitator, or psychiatrist???

Do you have any idea the training that goes into those positions I listed? Do you understand WHY extensive training is needed before you assume one of those positions?

Good lord... I might come in contact with a person who has appendicitis... I am not a surgeon, or a doctor.. I am not about to remove it for them... because I do not know what I am doing, and could cause worse damage than they are currently dealing with.

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 12:47:34 PM

Posts: 215
Joined: 2/21/2005
Status: offline

Is your skewed opinions the result of practices that are founded on fantasy or due to your being a member of Mencia's Dee-Dee-Dee gene pool?
Gentry

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 1:00:25 PM

Posts: 820
Joined: 3/27/2006
From: New Brunswick, N.J.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

I know some females in the scene were badly mistreated
by some male at some point in their life. I don't get
why they seem to have little interest in acting out some
kind of role playing revenge fantasy. Some say they
are afraid of losing control and going too far, but there
could always be a third party present to prevent that
from happening. I would think that would be theraputic.
Yet, survivors shy away from such a role reversal
dramatization. I know if I was a female and a victim
of abuse, I know I would to channel my anger onto some
male.

Hiya, Whip.

I need to answer this post.

As a person who has been abused in the past and one who doesn't rreally indulge in a whiole lot of BDSM play (probably because of my past). I know that for me, there is a concern that I not become the person that I hate (my abuser).

It's all good and well to talk about "taking back power" (or "becoming empowered" which seems to be a psycho-babble favorite) but, the fact is is that I believe that it is well within me to "slip to the darkside".

Obviously, each person is different but, I know that, for myself, this is very true. Funny enough; I have always found myself on career paths where I seem to be "daring myself" to take advantage of some poor schmuck and, thus far, I have refrained.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

_____________________________

Peace and comfort,

Michael

Former Vice-President Gore didn't invent the internet but, he DID make up global warming!

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 1:19:22 PM

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Joined: 7/31/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: auniquegift
> it seems that you are under the impression that yor way is the best way...

Why would you say that?

> not all survivors of abuse are the same...

Of course they are not.   I am in no position to tell another what is or is
not best for them. Nor would I ever do so. But the reasons given by
survivors for not wanting to act on my suggestion make no sense.
For example, when a survivor tells me they will be just as bad as
their perp if they do this, I can't agree. You can't tell me that
conduct between consenting adults is the same as a nonconsensual
sexual assault by an adult on a child. Equating the two makes no
sense.

> some of us....get on with life....have kids

Right! Whose talking about these survivors. I wasn't.

> taking revenge out on someone is never good.....

Why? Why is sane, consensual conduct between
adults wrong?

> if you take out revenge on someone else for what
> was done to you...you are in a sense just as bad as
> the person that did it to you....

Not if that person consents! Not if that person needs
to feel your anger? How can you compare consensual
conduct between adults to non-consensual sexual
assault of an adult on a child?  Everytime I hear this,
it drives me crazy because the two cases are not
remotely similar. In one case, both individuals are
adults in the other, one is a child. In one case, the
conduct is consensual, in the other it is not. In
one case the receiver is emtionally scarred,
traumatized for life and suffers years of suicidal
ideation and often lifelong depression. In the
other case, the receiver is helped.   How you
can compare the two cases is beyond me. But
your refrain is a familiar one. I've concluded
it is a cop out. I really believe some survivors
will give ever excuse in the book to avoid
venting the anger they have leanred to direct
at themselves.

_____________________________

(in reply to auniquegift)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 1:23:49 PM

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> I know that for me, there is a concern that I not become the person that I hate (my abuser).

I hear this again and again. Read the above post. You seem to see no difference between
your abuser and a Top. That you are unable to distinguish between the two amazes me.

_____________________________

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 1:32:20 PM

Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

What I have seen reiterated time and again that I do not see you "getting" is the difference between healthy expression in BDSM and the negative expression of anger in hitting. They are two very, very different things. A top can and does whallop the hell out of their bottom. But they are not doing so out of anger. I can guarantee you that lots of submissives who have been on the receiving end of both can tell the difference. They get pleasure from one and not the other. I really do not think many submissives, bottoms, masochists crave the feeling of someone's anger. Instead, they crave the physical feeling of pain their top gives them from a place of positive energy.

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 1:40:29 PM

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I think my biggest problem with your entire premise is that you're confusing consentual BDSM with some sort of therapy. Sure it can be cathardic and it can release pent up emotions. But, it's not the fix-all that you seem to think it is.

You actually said that the people that you know who have done this have wanted to come back for more...how is that helpful? How is that healing? How is that getting past the abuse in order to get on with your life?

You seem to think you understand something that you have no idea how to handle properly. If any of this is really true, then you are setting people up for disaster and more emotional turmoil.

I can't imagine anyone deluded enough to really think that this approach is healthy...except you.

_____________________________

~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 1:45:47 PM

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I completely agree with what has been posted here about healthy, positive pain and unhealthy, angry pain. I'm fairly masochistic, and I thought I would enjoy pain no matter how or where I got it. I thought very much like the op does--I enjoy pain, and she probably feels anger and would enjoy inflicting it. But then when I mentioned it to my then-Domme, she explained it to me. She was a sadist, and I'm a masochist. She liked me, and we were in a symbiotic relationship based on mutual feelings. Why would she want to corrupt that good-pain with anger and hate? She wanted to give me pain, not hurt me. There's a huge difference.

(in reply to MsKatHouston)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 1:47:22 PM

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

> I know that for me, there is a concern that I not become the person that I hate (my abuser).

I hear this again and again. Read the above post. You seem to see no difference between
your abuser and a Top. That you are unable to distinguish between the two amazes me.

that you cannot see/comprehend the correlation between venting repressed anger due to abuse trauma (no matter HOW safe, mutually consenting the circumstances), and the mentality of an uncaring abuser, is what's truly amazing to me, and i'm sure to most here.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 1:54:01 PM

susie

Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

> I know that for me, there is a concern that I not become the person that I hate (my abuser).

I hear this again and again. Read the above post. You seem to see no difference between
your abuser and a Top. That you are unable to distinguish between the two amazes me.

Whip

What I see again and again is a question which you seem to refuse to answer. What qualifications do you have. What training have you had to be "treating" these people? Have you ever been abused?

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 1:54:36 PM

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Joined: 11/22/2006
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Whip, the most damaging thing you have done to your cause is refuse to list your credentials, if any, despite having been asked over and over again.

The only conclusion I can draw from that is that you have no credentials. Nothing to base your theories on but your own opinion and the experiences of a few women who went along with you. Several people here have already tried to explain to you how much training goes into someone who goes into a profession to counsel those who have been abused.

It is reckless in the extreme, and immoral to continue your self-obsessed cure-all. You have no clue how much harm you might be causing. Grow up man.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 1:59:04 PM

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> one, are you a licensed ......anything (meaning do you have > some sort of degree in working with abused persons)

A license is just a piece of paper. They are often easy to get.
They mean very little. Experience and knowledge are
more important than a piece of paper hanging on the wall.
Most people I have counselled to tell I helped them more
in a few hours than all the psychiatrists they have seen their
entire life.   I have a pretty good working knowledge of psychiatry and psychology. But I have a few things most psychiatrists and psychologists don't have: empathy, understanding, non-judgmentalness, and an ability to communicate with people who are unable to communicate with others.

> two, honestly how many victums have you done this too
> and how many truely came back with a postive responce?

Dozens. Every one.

> three, how many times are you suggesting a victum do these "acting outs"

I don't make any suggestions. Every person is different! There are no hard and fast rules here.   I always ask the person if they are sure this is what they really want to do.  I ask them if they will be all right. I try to give them reassurance and encouragement, but I never try to push anyone to do anything they really don't want to do. By the time we are ready to do this most really want to do it. If someone feels any bit uncomfortable about doing this they shouldn't do it. It is always better to err on the side of caution. But the more survivors think about doing this, the more they realize there is nothing morally wrong in doing this, the more they really want to do it.

> I have moved on, and I don't want to re-experience anything like it again.

Everyone is different. Many survivors try to move on but find it is not so easy.   Demons that hang around from the past often haunt people.

> I feel as so many have stated that it's better to try to put the past behind you and get over it.

You are right. But there are some people who can't get over it.   You can't tell a person sufffering from post traumatic stress syndrome or depression, "Just get over it." It doens't work that way. Some people are so traumatized they can never get over it. It haunts them every day of their lives. It has more to do with the individual person, then the degree of abuse. Some people are a lot more sensitive than others. Some children are able to endure a lot and come out relatively unscathed. Some children are very fragile and break. Once the psyche is broken, like Humpty Dumpty, it can never be put back the way it was before. Some survivors self-mutilate, suffer borderline personality disorder, and suffer DID (formerly MPD)--they actually have different personalities. Some survivors develop an irrational hatred of all men, because their brains have a hard time differentiating between different members of a class.

> If you do not let that go it will eat at you and "ghost" around inside your head until you do.

Exactly!!!! Now imagine someone who CAN'T let it go. Imagine survivors who are eaten alive their entire lives, who are consumed with anger and bitterness. Imagine survivors huanted by a ghost they can't exorcise. This is the case for many survivors of severe abuse who were never believed, who never had much emotional support.

> I feel sometimes you make assumptions, truely thinking that
> you have it correct. However, you have had several abuse
> survivors tell you that is not how they see it. Perhaps,
> THAT is worth thinking about as well?

I listen to everyone and spend a lot of time thinking what others have to say.

< Message edited by WhipTheHip -- 4/12/2007 2:00:30 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to drawntothedark)

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