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Credibilty - 4/15/2007 9:02:25 AM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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      Over on the Art Bell thread, I related a story of taking a cousin, who was buying into the 'moon landing was faked' theory, out to see a mock-up of the lander that was used for training and is now on display. I'd heard the same radio show he had, and it sounded persuasive. The door of the lander was x by x, the life-support packs were wider than that. The guest on the show really hammered the point. "How could we have walked on the moon when the astronauts couldn't even get out the door?"

   Well, the mock-up is made of plywood, and while the paint has faded considerably, you can still clearly see where the boots wore it away in places. Neil Armstrong, and everybody else, went out the door at an angle. My cousin drove long-haul flatbeds and has a problem solving mind, he saw it immediately. He took it rather hard, actually.

    My intent was to just shut him up about the damn moon landing. He was laid over all weekend and it was only Saturday afternoon. Instead, he quit listening to the show entirely and went back to books-on-tape. One big fat lie was enough to bring the whole belief system crashing down.

     When 9/11 sites start out comparing the B-25 crash at the Empire State Building and using that as evidence, I'm done. You don't need to know very much about aviation to know that's an utter crock of shit.

    So to put a question to this rambler,

      What has caused you to reject something you believed to be true? Made you close your mind to something you were open to?

     No WMD's? Environmentalist crying 'wolf'? Dan Rather and the forged documents? What did it take for you to say, "enough" and do a 180?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

Post #: 1

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 9:19:16 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     Over on the Art Bell thread, I related a story of taking a cousin, who was buying into the 'moon landing was faked' theory, out to see a mock-up of the lander that was used for training and is now on display. I'd heard the same radio show he had, and it sounded persuasive. The door of the lander was x by x, the life-support packs were wider than that. The guest on the show really hammered the point. "How could we have walked on the moon when the astronauts couldn't even get out the door?"

Well, the mock-up is made of plywood, and while the paint has faded considerably, you can still clearly see where the boots wore it away in places. Neil Armstrong, and everybody else, went out the door at an angle. My cousin drove long-haul flatbeds and has a problem solving mind, he saw it immediately. He took it rather hard, actually.

   My intent was to just shut him up about the damn moon landing. He was laid over all weekend and it was only Saturday afternoon. Instead, he quit listening to the show entirely and went back to books-on-tape. One big fat lie was enough to bring the whole belief system crashing down.

    When 9/11 sites start out comparing the B-25 crash at the Empire State Building and using that as evidence, I'm done. You don't need to know very much about aviation to know that's an utter crock of shit.

   So to put a question to this rambler,

     What has caused you to reject something you believed to be true? Made you close your mind to something you were open to?

    No WMD's? Environmentalist crying 'wolf'? Dan Rather and the forged documents? What did it take for you to say, "enough" and do a 180?

in the case of 911

1) shit loads of evidence contrary to the gov's claims, you know little things like all those bombs you can hear on peoples cideo tapes, stuff like that.

2) Minor government over sites in the failure ananlysis, like all those bomns that went off on peoples videos.

3) phenomnenal level of coincidence

4) protection systems all happened to fail

5) oh i wasnt looking in that direction at the time.

6) the president saying he saw the first plane hit the day before anyone had the tape to air it.

You know little things like that do it to me every time :)

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

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Post #: 2

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 9:27:48 AM

Arpig

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From: Increasingly further from reality
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quote:

the president saying he saw the first plane hit the day before anyone had the tape to air it.

You don't suppose that maybe the people with the footage might have shown it to the Gvt before they aired it?

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Post #: 3

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 9:39:58 AM

juliaoceania

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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I used to be totally anti-gun. I still do not like them, I still think that most people that think they are defending themselves with them are pretty ignorant about how much protection they really offer, but I have nothing against gun ownership inherently... although I think that if a person's gun is used to take an innocent life they should at the very least be up on manslaughter charges for being negligent... what changed my mind? Realizing that some people were so attached to their firearms that they were extreme about it and not wanting to fight about it anymore...There are bigger fish to fry.

I used to be a moderate person politically, what changed me? Realizing all the harm our country does around the world and being unable to justify it in my mind and conscience. I used to be a Clinton NAFTA supporter too, I learned a lot about global economics and changed my mind... now I cannot stand Clinton because I believe he was intelligent enough to foresee what has happened with our economy, he just did not care enough about it to stop it.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 4

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 9:42:10 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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    I'm not going to go there Real. I give Zero credibilty to the topic. Mind Closed. Right down there with fundy Christians.

    Why? Because they led with utter bullshit. It might sound persuasive to people who want to believe and are totally uninformed about the topic, but it's a blatant lie. Whatever might come after is tainted. It would take a confession from someone very high in the conspiracy for me to re-open my mind to it.

    Was there a time when you did trust the Gov't, Real? A single specific thing that turned you towards your passion for research and alternative explanations?



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 5

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 10:48:42 AM

Sinergy

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Joined: 4/26/2004
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It sticks in my mind that I read somewhere that amateur astronomers have viewed the landing site on the moon and actually seen the bottom portion of the lunar lander that was left there.

Given that moon landings were faked, how exactly did a manufactured object that looks suspiciously like the bottom half of the plywood mock up get there?

Aliens? Fed-Ex?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 6

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 11:14:13 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

It sticks in my mind that I read somewhere that amateur astronomers have viewed the landing site on the moon and actually seen the bottom portion of the lunar lander that was left there.

Given that moon landings were faked, how exactly did a manufactured object that looks suspiciously like the bottom half of the plywood mock up get there?

Aliens? Fed-Ex?

Sinergy

    Now this, I haven't heard. It's possible I suppose, with a large enough telescope, that could focus on something so close. Honestly, my first impression is of fighting bullshit with bullshit, though. Then things really get muddy. You have to start examing who is using what made up argument, to what purpose... Or just say 'you guys have fun with that,' and walk away.

    Don't suppose there are pics posted somewhere, do you?

     Sure enough...
http://www.boulder.swri.edu/~durda/Apollo/landing_sites.html

    Seems to be BS, but this site is kinda cool...



< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 4/15/2007 11:20:31 AM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 7

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 11:30:52 AM

Sinergy

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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

It sticks in my mind that I read somewhere that amateur astronomers have viewed the landing site on the moon and actually seen the bottom portion of the lunar lander that was left there.

Given that moon landings were faked, how exactly did a manufactured object that looks suspiciously like the bottom half of the plywood mock up get there?

Aliens? Fed-Ex?

Sinergy

   Now this, I haven't heard. It's possible I suppose, with a large enough telescope, that could focus on something so close. Honestly, my first impression is of fighting bullshit with bullshit, though. Then things really get muddy. You have to start examing who is using what made up argument, to what purpose... Or just say 'you guys have fun with that,' and walk away.

   Don't suppose there are pics posted somewhere, do you?

    Sure enough...
http://www.boulder.swri.edu/~durda/Apollo/landing_sites.html

   Seems to be BS, but this site is kinda cool...

I would not necessarily argue that I was categorically correct. I have a brain filled with flotsam and jetsam from a life reading everything from cereal boxes to Ayn Rand.

The pictures could be argued against due to the low resolution, I suppose. But I was reading a few months ago that amateur astronomers track satellites, do the math, figure things out, and post things.

This is a web site dedicated to this particular branch of astronomy.

http://satobs.org/

Astronomers tend to be rather hard core about things, and there are lots and lots of them. Since the moon is in a gravitationally locked orbit (one side always faces the center of mass) people could spend their lives examining a specific part of it and not have to worry about the rotation schedule.

Eventually, one would find the lander if there was one there.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 8

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 11:47:52 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I would not necessarily argue that I was categorically correct. I have a brain filled with flotsam and jetsam from a life reading everything from cereal boxes to Ayn Rand.

Hehehehe... It's amazing how much stuff gets tucked away up there, from such odd sources, isn't it? There are plenty of movie plots I can call to mind based on the Mad Magazine satires, not to mention the huge amounts of early 80's trivial political/social stuff that lodged while working on the extemp files for the speech team.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 9

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 1:19:32 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Was there a time when you did trust the Gov't, Real? A single specific thing that turned you towards your passion for research and alternative explanations?

Lets see a single specifics thing huh...

ok

Sinking the maine
oops! caught us with our panties down, american people pissed
Immediately after go to war
more taxes/laws

Pearl harbor
oops! caught us with our panties down, american people pissed
immediately after go to war
more taxes/laws

Northbrook
american people had no clue
Kennedy did not go through with it (no war)
kennedy assassination
johnson hunt coup

Johnson in:
tonkin
Just go to war the hell with what the american peple want.
Immediately after go to war

ajax
admitted by kermit rooseveldt
cia coup

saddam
cia coup

murrah building
dismantling of the militia groups

waco
arms control

911
oops! caught us with our panties down, american people pissed
Immediately after go to war
dismantle constitution
more domestic police to watch the american people so those bad guy suadis from overseas cant get in

i didnt bother to mention the creation of more "police" organizations after each occurance, but after each occurance we had the batf, fbi, cia, nsa, and now the homeland security that we know wont violate any of our rights... cough gag... LOL

Sunset clauses are history now, every law, act etc strarts out intended for one thing then winds up tapping everyones phones via the help of att.

Maybe its just me imagining that this is a pattern that the whole freaking world is out to get us...

i wish i had a single reason my friend, i only "wish", but like my grandpappy used to say, hold out your hands, wish in this hand get shit in the other. not to far from the truth.

Your mind may be closed to all that too, i mean we can go on with wmds, attack iraq and afgahnastan instead of saudi, 50% of claimed hijackers are alive.

Now i hardly buy into every conspiracy theory that comes down the horn. only those where there is lots of money involved, and smell like shit suffice to say 911, and that is not inteded to go there, happens to be one of them where lots, more like hugefuckingmongous amounts of money were to be made by a certain few.

i mean someone is bullshitting us right? i really doubt it would be the government after all... i mean not with their honest joe track record.... :) So was there ever a time? Sure i suppose as a very young child watching vic morrow waste all the bad guys, then i spent 4 in the military and it was pretty much down hill from there. As far as most people are concerned the tie always goes to the government as no one "wants" to think the gov is capable of such things even though they show us time and time again how trustworthy they are. but each to there own.

Anyway i have tried on several occasions in several threads to get people to show me the evidence they have in support of the governments tin hat conspiracy claim but no one has come up with even reasonable credible answers, (Except Ron!), and unlike other catastrophe's that we have had in this country where we go to the bottom of the ocean to get the debris and painstakingly piece it back together to find out what happened, where our system work\s the way it is supposed to and evidence is not destroyed, but on this occasion every fucking part of the system that always works failed...... sorry i have seen this pattern to much, try looking into the 7/7 bombings or madrid and the same pattern repeats over and over again, kennedy assasination all strange mysteries, 911 all mysteries. rest assured where there is the combination of gov/money/mystery/coincidence you know you can depend on them to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. then go to war.

Oh one final thought on 911, call up a couple demolition crews in the hood, ones who do big buildings and ask them, you might have to twist their arms as they prefer not to talk about it, but if you can get them to talk about it as them how come those buildings came dowen so nice and neetly, i did and i tried to tell people here. anyway i will shut up about 911 now even tho it is one of my fav topics now days.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/15/2007 1:49:09 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 10

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 1:41:30 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

the president saying he saw the first plane hit the day before anyone had the tape to air it.

You don't suppose that maybe the people with the footage might have shown it to the Gvt before they aired it?

Since he doesnt want us to belabor the issue of 911 i will make this one comment on it and unless he brings it up again if you wish to talk abot it i can regurgitate a 911 thread or take it to a new thread whichever.

gw said that less within hours from the time of the crash, gw and the tapes were a couple thousand miles apart. The tape of the first crash did not air till the second day and how could gw even know it existed since it came from a road crew who just happened to accidentaly have the camera pointed in that direction at that time. even if they tried there is no way they could get that tape in his hands in the short amount of time before he said duh i seen it on tv, what a bad pilot.... anyway nuff said and thats the way it was on 9/11... what do ya think my walter cronkite about right?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 11

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 1:57:47 PM

Slavetrainer2007

Posts: 231
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline

I take most of what i see or read with a grain of salt.

For instance the WMDs thing, i knew their was unlikely to be any. I knew the real reason we was going to iraq to fight was for oil. We are so heavliy dependent on oil and guess what the country with the largest known oil reserve is saudia arabia..HMMM allies. The country with the second largest known oil reserve ..Iraq. Kuwait... lots of oil there too. So you run iraq out of kuwait get the trust of saudia arabia then later you invade Iraq over WMDs and say opps none here but since we destroyed your country we are going to rebuild it. Oh and thats how we want it rebuilt.Result: kuwait and SA are allies and we pretty much own iraq so in a roundabout way we either control or heavily influence most of the worlds oil reserve.

I find nothing the US govt does as crediable.They play their little war games at the citizens expense in money and lives.. How much is it to support troops in iraq? 1 billion a month? Do you realize thats enough to provide about 10% of the population of america with healthcare?That dont include troops we have everywhere else.

I wonder if anyone has looked up the price of what war cost. A nuclear air craft carrier =$2 billion unequipped. Tomahawk cruise missle=$400,000 , and thats for something you use once and blow up! How many of those landed in iraq? The kit to make bombs smart=$20,000 bomb not included. Thats not all the rebuilding stage of this little "doze your country over and then rebuild it for practice", cost you directly millions.
Have you done any remodeling lately? room addition? a sheet of OSB sheeting( used on walls and roofs of houses) went from $8 a sheet to $22. Why? because the govt was buying all of it and sending it to Iraq to rebuild. Guess what they was buying it with.. your tax money. So if you bought sheeting during this time period for a home improvement project( or bought a new home) you not only donated your tax money to buy sheeting for a home the govt spent $400,000 of your tax money to blow up and their wasnt even anyone home at the time. BUT you paid almost triple for every single sheet of OSB you bought. on a 1500 sq foot new house thats about 250 sheets or an extra $3500 in cost passed on to you when you bought it.

Congrats, you just been screwed 3 times by the american govt by buying one house

Truely it would be better if we americans fired every politician in office. Then we went to the ghetto and got us some poor black folks, then went to the plains and got us some poor farmers, then went to the hills and got us some poor hicks. Then went to a few major cities and got us a few homeless peeps. And we let them run things for awhile. I bet it would straighten things right out

_____________________________

Life is given, Everything else is earned.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 12

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 2:00:08 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

That "Free Trade" would be "good" for the U.S.
How many times does that idea have to be blown out of the water before people realise that it's "not good" for the U.S.?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 13

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 2:02:04 PM

Griswold

Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     Over on the Art Bell thread, I related a story of taking a cousin, who was buying into the 'moon landing was faked' theory, out to see a mock-up of the lander that was used for training and is now on display. I'd heard the same radio show he had, and it sounded persuasive. The door of the lander was x by x, the life-support packs were wider than that. The guest on the show really hammered the point. "How could we have walked on the moon when the astronauts couldn't even get out the door?"

Well, the mock-up is made of plywood, and while the paint has faded considerably, you can still clearly see where the boots wore it away in places. Neil Armstrong, and everybody else, went out the door at an angle. My cousin drove long-haul flatbeds and has a problem solving mind, he saw it immediately. He took it rather hard, actually.

   My intent was to just shut him up about the damn moon landing. He was laid over all weekend and it was only Saturday afternoon. Instead, he quit listening to the show entirely and went back to books-on-tape. One big fat lie was enough to bring the whole belief system crashing down.

    When 9/11 sites start out comparing the B-25 crash at the Empire State Building and using that as evidence, I'm done. You don't need to know very much about aviation to know that's an utter crock of shit.

   So to put a question to this rambler,

     What has caused you to reject something you believed to be true? Made you close your mind to something you were open to?

    No WMD's? Environmentalist crying 'wolf'? Dan Rather and the forged documents? What did it take for you to say, "enough" and do a 180?

Read "The Prince" by Machiavelli.

Every one of your questions will be answered.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 14

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 2:11:25 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

Great book. I'm partial to the bit about, "it is better not to oppress, but if you must, do it utterly." (paraphrasing from memory here).

Another slighly more recent volume that shouldn't be missed is "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer. I may someday read that one as a bedtime story.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Griswold)

Post #: 15

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 2:17:27 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Great book. I'm partial to the bit about, "it is better not to oppress, but if you must, do it utterly." (paraphrasing from memory here).

Another slighly more recent volume that shouldn't be missed is "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer. I may someday read that one as a bedtime story.

goes hand in hand with hitler: if you are going to lie make it a big one because the bigger the lie the more likely it will be believed.

so did i adequately answer your quetion btw?

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/15/2007 2:19:04 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 16

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 2:24:59 PM

Griswold

Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Great book. I'm partial to the bit about, "it is better not to oppress, but if you must, do it utterly." (paraphrasing from memory here).

Another slighly more recent volume that shouldn't be missed is "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer. I may someday read that one as a bedtime story.

Fits right in with Hitlers....(I'm paraphrasing) "If you're going to tell a lie...tell a big one".

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 17

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 2:41:11 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Great book. I'm partial to the bit about, "it is better not to oppress, but if you must, do it utterly." (paraphrasing from memory here).

Another slighly more recent volume that shouldn't be missed is "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer. I may someday read that one as a bedtime story.

goes hand in hand with hitler: if you are going to lie make it a big one because the bigger the lie the more likely it will be believed.

so did i adequately answer your quetion btw?

Actually guys, I think that line is from Geobbels, not sure...

And yes, Real. Thank you. The question does sometimes come down to an individual choice of who seems to be lying least. And once you decide that, you wind up being forced to sigh and shrug sometimes.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 18

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 2:50:17 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Great book. I'm partial to the bit about, "it is better not to oppress, but if you must, do it utterly." (paraphrasing from memory here).

Another slighly more recent volume that shouldn't be missed is "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer. I may someday read that one as a bedtime story.

goes hand in hand with hitler: if you are going to lie make it a big one because the bigger the lie the more likely it will be believed.

so did i adequately answer your quetion btw?

Obviously Clinton and Bush read "Mein Kampf."

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 19

RE: Credibilty - 4/15/2007 2:51:31 PM

luckydog1

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Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

An example of the Big Lie is Reals insistance that the building fell nice and neatly into its own footprint. Hence it had to be a controlled demolition, and there was no way building 7 could have been damaged. It is very important that you swallow this lie, as the other parts of the silly theory are based on it. http://www.zombietime.com/wtc_9-13-2001/ However anyone interested can simply look at the widley available pictures to see that the building did not," came dowen so nice and neetly".

As to what Bush said, if you inserted a "that" into the sentace it makes perfect sense, and in speech it is often left out. I saw on TV (that) a plane had hit the towers.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 20

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