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Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 9:15:16 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline 		I am aware there is a VA Tech thread and I don't want to hijack it with a specific issue, so I wanted to start this one so that we can discuss this aspect and allow other elements of this tragedy to get their fair share of discussion over there. This thread is about gun control in general and regulation as a product of tragedy in specific (given the events that have just transpired). 2008 is nigh and the changing of seats in the executive and legislative branches ensures this will be a hot-button topic for all of the slimy rats who pretend they are here to serve the public interest. Thus, I invite you to discuss your thoughts, and opinions on the subject and perhaps challenge your viewpoint on the subject at large (depending on your POV).


First and foremost, I am livid about this campus slaying, and I am for reasons that are unnatural. Instread of shaking my head with disbelief and considering the lives of those adversely affected by this tragedy, I find the first thoughts on the subject straying to places like "Great, what kind of firearm was used... Thank God it was a pistol instead of an assault rifile... I can't wait for the antis to have a field day with this". This is wrong. 30+ innocent people have died, and these are where my thoughts go. Why? Because the media and special interest groups (dependent on peddling the morbid and fear mongering for finnancial support) exploit every one of these situations and I have had it. These people haven't been laid into the ground and they are already at it with "lax gun laws... gunshow loopholes, etc."

Well, I would like to clear the air about a few matters...

I want to begin by reminding everybody about shock and emotion v. logic and careful consideration. I cannot think of a better, more current example than 9/11. Everybody was stunned and outraged about the events... so much so that the Patriot Act passed with a minimal amount of scrutiny. Now that (in hindsight) the emotion has subsided, we are left with one very nasty can of worms.  Just like Columbine, these bodies can and will be manipulated for political momentum. When one is not actively thinking it is very tempting to go along with something that "seems" like it is making the world safer when juxtaposed to the horrifying images on TV. Given full consideration and proper scrutiny one might find that the well-intentioned legislation has devestating consequences, or in the least solves nothing, and simply hacks one more of our dwindling freedoms.

Second, VA Tech was to my understanding a "Gun Free Campus" which has city/state regulation that prohihits the carrying of firearms on campus. Today's tragedy is a PRIME example of how useless this kind of legislation is. All the government has done in effect is posted signs that read: "Rapists, armed robbers, and psychopaths - We have disarmed your victims... have at it". I don't know who was in the buildings this idiot terrorized so I can't tell you what if anything might have changed, but if ONE person with his/her licensed concealed weapon was in the "wrong place at the right time," this might have been a tragedt of 1-2 victims instead of 30+. What can be said for sure is that given such a bone-headed law, there is zero possibliry a law-abiding citizen can stop such insanity as it happens.

Then there is the issue of so-called "assault rifles" (huh... who mentioned these?). You can bet your sweet ass that this tragedy will be an emotional banner waved to ban these kinds of weapons even though they have NOTHING to do with this particular incident. VA Tech has illustrated what many of us with any sense have known for a long time... Criminals are better served with handguns and they are statistically the weapon of choice. Handguns are lighter, more portable, and quicker to point, maneuver with and reload than a semi-automatic rifle. Point being these weapons (Despite the media's obsession with them) are statistically insignificant and an outright ban will do nothing to prevent "Columbines" as we have witnessed today. The only way that we could do this is by completely and sucessfully disarming America, which aside from patently absurd is absolutely impossible.

What about stricter "general" firearms regulation? I know we have hashed this out many times over the years and nothing has changed. Laws and regulations apply only to those who obey the law, and rarely those for whom the regulations were intended. If this guy was 21 and fulfilled the basic requirements of ownership then no regulations (short of an outright ban) would have prevented him from obtaining the weapon. If for whatever reason he was not legally eligable to purchase a handgun, it makes little difference. Guns have, are, and always will be readily available to any individual who wants one, in any country on this planet. Most of our worst centers for violent crime are those with the strictest gun regulations. Clearly this is a sociological/psycological issue, not a legislative one (in this sense, at least). We can certainly make it harder for someone to get one, (never impossible), but that comes at the price of our freedom. How reasonable is it to take most or substantially all of our Second Amendment rights just to make firearms "37%" more difficult to acquire?

In conclusion, I am plain sick of the media and these groups (like the Brady Center) exploiting these tragedies to pimp their agenda, and I am even sicker of being on the defensive all the time to preserve one of our most important rights. These regulations have no effect on those who are compelled to violate them, but they come with the staggering cost of personal freedom.  So I urge everybody who is neutral on the issue not to bite the Patriot Act hook, and reconsider the logic and sincerity of these public servants who offer these token gestures as viable solutions in the future.


Your thoughts?
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 9:23:26 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Yup, they were a "gun-free" campus.

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 9:27:58 PM   
SEVADom


Posts: 37
Joined: 2/3/2006
Status: offline 		Just one minor correction -- the only rules preventing carrying on campus by holders of concealed carry licenses were the University's policies. Neither the city nor the state block concealed carry there. By state preemption law, the city isn't allowed to -- and the state doesn't.

Getting a concealed carry permit in Virginia is quite a straightforward process.  I know -- I live there, I researched it, and I have one.

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 9:40:57 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Yup, they were a "gun-free" campus.

You mean people break laws??  *Gasp*

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 9:43:10 PM   
popeye1250


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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Seva, if that's the case someone at that school who came up with that dumb rule is going to be hung out to dry and they should be.
Did they have any "rules" restricting 1st amendment rights too?

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 9:44:28 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SEVADom

Just one minor correction -- the only rules preventing carrying on campus by holders of concealed carry licenses were the University's policies. Neither the city nor the state block concealed carry there. By state preemption law, the city isn't allowed to -- and the state doesn't.

Getting a concealed carry permit in Virginia is quite a straightforward process.  I know -- I live there, I researched it, and I have one.




progressive "modern" thinking i bet...  no gun rules = no gun crime...  yeh that adds up...

what pisses me off is every time this shit happens i have to donate another couple hundred bucks to the nra to fight the asshole politicians.

we all but lost our constitution, ban guns and we can totally forget about it.


_____________________________

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 9:59:15 PM   
SEVADom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Seva, if that's the case someone at that school who came up with that dumb rule is going to be hung out to dry and they should be.
Did they have any "rules" restricting 1st amendment rights too?


There are always people willing to defend gun control advocates, however misinformed. I wouldn't count on the "hanging out to dry," gratifying though that would be.

Regarding 1st amendment rights, I can't speak specifically to Virginia Tech's rules, but you are aware that it is extremely common for Universities in the U.S. to have rules restricting speech, yes? They're commonly couched as rules against "hate speech." Who could be for that, right? Well, once in place, they tend to be used a bit more broadly than one might expect from what a reasonable person might call "hate speech." Again, I do not know if VT has such in place. Let's just beat on them for the idiocies we're sure they committed.

Offhand, I have no idea if the University has any rules pertaining to any of the other rights in the 1st amendment -- no religion establishment clause, freedom of the press, assembly, and petition the government. (Good reference link: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/billofrightsintro.html)

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 10:16:35 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SEVADom

Just one minor correction -- the only rules preventing carrying on campus by holders of concealed carry licenses were the University's policies. Neither the city nor the state block concealed carry there. By state preemption law, the city isn't allowed to -- and the state doesn't.

Getting a concealed carry permit in Virginia is quite a straightforward process.  I know -- I live there, I researched it, and I have one.


Thank you for the correction. In LA we have CCW but we also have state-enforced "Firearm Free Campuses".

(in reply to SEVADom)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 10:19:37 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

First and foremost, I am livid about this campus slaying, and I am for reasons that are unnatural. Instread of shaking my head with disbelief and considering the lives of those adversely affected by this tragedy, I find the first thoughts on the subject straying to places like "Great, what kind of firearm was used... Thank God it was a pistol instead of an assault rifile... I can't wait for the antis to have a field day with this". This is wrong. 30+ innocent people have died, and these are where my thoughts go. Why? Because the media and special interest groups (dependent on peddling the morbid and fear mongering for finnancial support) exploit every one of these situations and I have had it. These people haven't been laid into the ground and they are already at it with "lax gun laws... gunshow loopholes, etc."


My thoughts did not even go to gun control, the lack of it, needing more of it, my thoughts were of the people that died. I cannot imagine living through that, and I feel a deep sense of sadness for the people that lost their lives.

I was reading the other thread, and it seemed the ones that want to focus on the gun issue are those who proponents of an armed society. You know, if you can achieve a society where we are all armed ala Afghanistan or Iraq... Go you, that is the democratic republic for you. I am not posting here to crap all over your views or debate it, I am not out to take all the guns away, but there is something a little creepy to me about contemplating going to graduate school with a bunch of students packing heat.... something very wild west-ish about it. I surely hope there is not some reactionary thing that happens to make campuses in California go THAT route.

Edited to add, are we going to arm our high school students too?

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 4/16/2007 10:20:12 PM >

_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Pulpsmack)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 10:30:58 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Pulpster;

Cool post, but I think you dwell too much on trying to debunk the anti-gunners.

And, believe it or not I was actually considering repatriatrating to Austrailia, until they took the guns away. I can't see any logic in taking the guns away when you have crocs.

Let's say that every "fact" anti gunners say is true. Guns kill, not people. Guns cause all the problems in our lives. OK, so let's say that is true.

Let me remind you of something.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Note the placement of the comma.

They dragged your nose into it, the argument is not whether guns are good or bad, it simply does not matter. Guns for the People is part and parcel of this nation, and that is that. What people have done with guns is no more important than what they have done with hacksws, hammers and who knows what other blunt instruments they can come up with. You can easily kill someone with a bowling ball. (Hint, you don't have to sharpen it).

Guns are very bad because they kill people, but guns are also very good because they kill people. It is a very good idea to have at least one in each household.

Comes down to this. Simple human nature. The people who want to take the guns away want to do it becasuse it is they who deserve to get shot. Wouldn't you ?

T

(in reply to SEVADom)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 10:31:23 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I simply wish there was better oversight of the purchasing and training for licensed gun-carriers re: The supposed "enforced regulations" in my area. Omaha already has a huge inner-city (spreading to the suburbs now) gang problem.

Now, to top it off, some of the the gang members can legitimately carry guns, as well as illegitimately carry guns (or at least purchase them, if they have no criminal record, yet).

The idea behind our new laws here (whether the police department will admit it or not) was that since they are sometimes under-staffed, and cannot be everywhere, it only made sense the citizens should be able to "pack heat" as well, in order to be able to do it, if they possibly need to defend themselves.

I can't say I am totally against the idea - but I now imagine in my mind, some of the 80-year old ladies living in bad neighborhoods, shooting at someone they thought was a burglar, who was really just the newspaper boy instead (Oops, sorry you're dead, it was an accident), and also those who won't bother to learn how to shoot a gun properly or practice, or control their sense of either "macho" or "panic" in the instance they should think they might need to use one, possibly killing innocent victims, along w/kids who just get in dad's gun cabinet by mistake - all cause un-necessary fatalities.

I bet if there is some study done in 5 years here, it might turn out to be a "wash" as far as intentional homicides vs. accidents commited with guns, as far as gun-related fatalities, and the reasons behind them.

I know people have a right to defend themselves, but when I consider this "tit-for-tat, up the ante" mentality regarding citizen defense and crime, it only strikes me as some kind of "Urban Cold War".

I don't know what the answer is, really.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/16/2007 10:45:24 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 10:54:56 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

My thoughts did not even go to gun control, the lack of it, needing more of it, my thoughts were of the people that died. I cannot imagine living through that, and I feel a deep sense of sadness for the people that lost their lives.


Your initial thoughts would be the "right reaction" in my opinion.  I find it sad that this is no longer my default reaction to such things, much like a dedicated responsible pitbull owner cannot read a maming of a child at the jaws of a gang-banger's dog-fight escapee and just feel for the parents of that child. He knows where the media will go and how the groups will use the story.


quote:

I was reading the other thread, and it seemed the ones that want to focus on the gun issue are those who proponents of an armed society.


I actually made a conscious effort to draft this thread before opening the original. After looking at that one I saw how it fell victim to the hijacking of that issue. Looks like I was a few hours too late.


quote:

 You know, if you can achieve a society where we are all armed ala Afghanistan or Iraq... Go you, that is the democratic republic for you. I am not posting here to crap all over your views or debate it, I am not out to take all the guns away, but there is something a little creepy to me about contemplating going to graduate school with a bunch of students packing heat.... something very wild west-ish about it.


I suppose it's as creepy as you want it to be. How unsettling is it to see a Glock dangling from a duty belt of the mall security officer, policeman, etc? You see these every day and it's hardly unsettling because we the sheeple are exposed and conditioned to accept the image of a duty belt, striped pants and a badge. Yeah, there is the argument of more training with the badge, but many cops have no interest beyond the academy, and draw the weapon only a week prior to quals in order to brush up, whereas security officers have even more lax standards.  The average person who spends his.her own  money on a license, pistol, gunleather, etc is more inclined to be a "gun guy/gal", and will actually put in practice for recreation.

Also, As unsettling as it seems since you aren't used to it, you'd never know. These people would be carrying concealed, not in some cowboy holster, so it would be business as usual in all other respects. Moreover, graduate students in general are those who have demonstrated some intellectual ability, and responsibility. If you feel uneasy with a grad student handling the responsibility of safely carrying a weapon, you must live in mortal terror at the thought of college-level (at best) police officers running around with pistols and longarms. 



quote:

 I surely hope there is not some reactionary thing that happens to make campuses in California go THAT route.


Well, it has more benefits than it does drawbacks. I am sure you are aware there are guns on your campus right now... in the hands of the unauthorized. They exist independent of the laws in place. Some are held by those who feel the need to protect themselves despite the consequences, and others are in the hands of the criminals. This is the reality you have now. Allowing your classmates (who qualify) to carry their legally licensed weapons on campus gives some would-be violent offenders something else to worry about.


quote:

Edited to add, are we going to arm our high school students too?


That's a logically absurd extreme, but i'll humor you...

Ignoring the fundamental difference that these students are children and cannot carry concealed in any state (all are 21) there are significant differences between high school and college campuses.

- High schools are (generally) one large complex. You can station a (trained and armed) security detail in an office and they can respond down the hall within a minute.

- College campuses OTOH are a vast network of buildings and there is no economically feasable way to station a security detail in all of the buildings.

- High schools do not permit loitering on campus. When people are supposed to be in class they are not to be roaming the halls or screwing around  in certain places. After extracurriculars, they are not allowed in the buildings or on school property, and police officers usually hang out at night... "enforcing the law" in those parkinglots.

- College campuses OTOH have a visible large population of students in the buildings and loitering on campus at all hours, day and night. Even if you have the buildings secured, you still have the sunbathers to look after, or the staggering foursome of coeds returning to the dorms at 2:30 am.

In short, high schools have no need to arm the students (assuming they could) since an armed security detail (and/or authorized faculty) can respond if so equipped and preparred. Colleges are a whole different matter, the larger ones having their own police force and still they are unable to erradicate violent crime on campus.

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 4/16/2007 10:58:15 PM >

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 11:08:40 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I am not going to argue your opinion with you, you are not going to set me up as some sort of strawman for your position. Like I said, you can convince everyone else your views are good, fine! Go you!

I stated the thing about high school students because most school gun violence that you were so up in arms about happen at high schools, not college campuses.


quote:

 
Moreover, graduate students in general are those who have demonstrated some intellectual ability, and responsibility. If you feel uneasy with a grad student handling the responsibility of safely carrying a weapon, you must live in mortal terror at the thought of college-level (at best) police officers running around with pistols and longarms. 



Edited to add, you do realize that undergraduate and graduate students attend the same colleges, right? So no, not everyone I have went to school with was a fine upstanding individual that was respectful of each other. In fact I have seen people almost get into fist fights... I am thankful that they were not armed.

As far as armed security guards, I do not remember seeing an armed rent-a-cop.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 4/16/2007 11:12:55 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 11:24:11 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		We entrust high school students with large, heavy dangerous weapons now, after duly licensing them.  Weapons that kill more people than guns.

Cars.

FirmKY


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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 11:38:27 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SEVADom

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Seva, if that's the case someone at that school who came up with that dumb rule is going to be hung out to dry and they should be.
Did they have any "rules" restricting 1st amendment rights too?


There are always people willing to defend gun control advocates, however misinformed. I wouldn't count on the "hanging out to dry," gratifying though that would be.

Regarding 1st amendment rights, I can't speak specifically to Virginia Tech's rules, but you are aware that it is extremely common for Universities in the U.S. to have rules restricting speech, yes? They're commonly couched as rules against "hate speech." Who could be for that, right? Well, once in place, they tend to be used a bit more broadly than one might expect from what a reasonable person might call "hate speech." Again, I do not know if VT has such in place. Let's just beat on them for the idiocies we're sure they committed.

Offhand, I have no idea if the University has any rules pertaining to any of the other rights in the 1st amendment -- no religion establishment clause, freedom of the press, assembly, and petition the government. (Good reference link: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/billofrightsintro.html)



SEVADom, good points.
Yes, I've heard about that speech restriction stuff at colleges and universities and it kind of shocked me as I always thought of those placs as somewhat "liberal" places.
It's a thin line to restrict the 1st amendment or the 2nd.
If, in my opinion they want to do that then the state needs to turn off the money fawcetts. Insolvency would quickly follow I'm sure.
Why some beaurocrats think that they have the power to bypass the *U.S. Consitution* is beyond my understanding!
These are in most cases "State Employees." How did they manage to set up their own little feifdoms on the Taxpayer's Dime?
I think we need to set up Taxpayer Watchdog Groups to oversee these institutions and fire people when neccessary.
They've obviously taken way too much leeway on their own.
I'm real big on getting The People more *involved* in government and at all levels.
After all when you're on the Public Payroll you work for "The People."

(in reply to SEVADom)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 11:42:19 PM   
Einzelganger


Posts: 221
Joined: 4/8/2007
From: Orlando, FL
Status: offline 		Every night, I strap on a pair of speed skates and spend about an hour getting home...after 2:00 AM.  I tear through some parts of town on my way that aren't bad, but aren't exactly pristine suburban America, either.  Now, if there's some idiot on foot with a knife, no problem...I can do 30mph, he can't.  If there's someone robbing me at gunpoint, sure, he can have my empty wallet...I don't carry any money or credit cards in it when I'm just skating straight to work or straight home.  If they attempt to cause me any form of bodily harm, they get a close look at the business end of my Beretta.  If they still want to cause me bodily harm, I'll gladly reciprocate.

For this use, I believe that my second amendment rights suit me just fine the way they are.  They give me the chance to protect myself from robbers, kids who think it's funny to threaten pedestrians with vehicular homicide, and rabid dogs that have chased me on more than one occasion (No, not Spot...if it's foaming at the mouth, has no tags, and looks like it's never had a bath before, I seriously doubt it's someone's pet).

In this scenario, the way I look at it is very simple: what would I do if I were a teacher/student/parent/school admin, and I had the power to change something about this scenario, within reason?

If I were a student, I'd want someone there to protect me, so I could busy myself with my studies (among all the other things that happen at college) without having to worry about my safety while I'm at class...NOT another student.  The stunts kids display at college is proof, in my humble opinion, that you don't need a bunch of college kids packing heat...if I were one of them, I wouldn't feel safe in an environment like that.

If I were a teacher, I wouldn't teach ANY classes these days without a way to protect myself, and my students.

If I were a parent, I would expect the school to take some sort of responsibility for ensuring the safety of my child, especially if I'm handing out the sort of dough it takes for them to attend said school.

If I'm a school administrator, I would grant my teachers and staff the right to carry a concealed firearm, IF THEY ATTEND THE APPROPRIATE CLASSES, AND DEMONSTRATE SOUND REASONING.  If that were the case, if a serious problem like yesterday's events should arise, a student in desperation could approach ANY staff member and ask for help; there would be no need to wait several minutes until the police arrive.  How many people can die in several minutes?  Take a look at the news.

If someone else doesn't like guns, they can neglect to purchase one if they want.  That's their right.  But it irritates me when someone tells me guns are dangerous, and should be banned...as if that will keep criminals from acquiring them anyway.  As long as you ban something, there will be a black market for it.  Besides, it's not like I go around telling people that SUV's should be banned.  Granted, they're unsafe, and tend to kill their occupants when they roll over due to their poor handling characteristics, high center of gravity, and the lack of this information being given to the owners by the manufacturers who sell them, but...if someone wants to drive a Yank Tank, they've got every right to do so.  Do I want one?  Hell no.  That's the beautiful thing about America...we can make our own choices here regarding our safety.  Unless the polichickens take that choice away from us, that is...

Just my $0.02.
-Einzelgänger

< Message edited by Einzelganger -- 4/16/2007 11:55:52 PM >

(in reply to Pulpsmack)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 11:46:32 PM   
b12345


Posts: 37
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline 		Read this http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658

"Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus.""

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 11:55:52 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: b12345

Read this http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658

"Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus.""



Wow, someone fucked up big time!
I'd like to see a list of names of the people who came up with that "no gun" rule.
Surely they wouldn't mind stepping forward publicly!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 4/16/2007 11:58:17 PM >

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/16/2007 11:56:32 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am not going to argue your opinion with you, you are not going to set me up as some sort of strawman for your position. Like I said, you can convince everyone else your views are good, fine! Go you!


You are perfectly welcome to pose your argument or abstaining from doing so but I would like to know where you get this straw man business. First, you are making the accusation that I would commit this logical fallacy with respect to your words. Do have some articulable reason for this accusation or is this you (mis)applying the term as an excuse to hold your tongue? All you had to say/reiterate is that you have no desire to debate the issue, so I am curious to know why you didn't just leave it at that. 


quote:

I stated the thing about high school students because most school gun violence that you were so up in arms about happen at high schools, not college campuses.


No, not quite. High publicity "slayings" are as you have pointed out more common to high schools than college campuses (so far). But the gun violence I am "up in arms about" is ALL gun violence that victimizes us in areas where we are legally restricted from defending ourselves. Hence my point about the firearms free signs on campuses serving as invitiations to rob, and rape, in addition to wholesale slaying. These sorts of incidents happen all the time on campuses. Looking at the high schools however, I have a problem with a teacher being prevented from carrying his/her  concealed firearm in school. Some schools don't have funding for security and it is not uncommon to find schools that are both too poor to have adequate security and have dangerous students. The faculty and staff should be allowed to protect themselves and others from threats from students (or nonstudents like that psycho who killed those Omish in the schoolhouse).

quote:

Edited to add, you do realize that undergraduate and graduate students attend the same colleges, right? So no, not everyone I have went to school with was a fine upstanding individual that was respectful of each other. In fact I have seen people almost get into fist fights... I am thankful that they were not armed.


That further reinforces my point. Instead of having the "responsible, intellectual, elite" being isolated in their ivory tower and the "Zoo" being relegated to theirs, you have a mixture of the populations. So, you have these responsible, intellectual, graduate students forced to co-mingle with unruly and potentially violent students. Moreover, you have undergrads who aren't of age to carry legally who can benefit from one of these grad students who could stop a significant incident from one of these upstarts that goes to class with/near them. On the other hand, how many college undergrads are at least 21, able to pass the requirments for licensing, AND disrespectful combative individuals? I would wager the number is significantly low. The 18-20 year old hooligans who are likely to fail out in 2 semesters are not of age to carry concealed as it is.  

quote:


As far as armed security guards, I do not remember seeing an armed rent-a-cop.


I have no idea what exactly you mean by this, so there's no point responding to that.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/17/2007 2:35:36 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Only fools will refute that the correlation between liberal gun laws and the number of guns in society and the amount of gun deaths. No doubt the pro-gun lobby will say that the only way to protect oneself is to have a gun without even considering all the data pointing to that stance being nigh on idiotic. 

Scroll down to list at the bottom. The stats say more guns and more liberal laws in society equals more gun deaths.

http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/international.html

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Pulpsmack)
Profile   Post #: 20
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