RE: what are they protecting exactly?

RE: what are they protecting exactly? (Full Version)

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Celeste43 -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/17/2007 3:30:15 PM)
Assuming he's not just using her for himself in the meantime I can see one possible reason. Sub frenzy. We've all heard the sad aftermaths of people who don't take any time to think about what they want and don't want, who get forced into things they know they can't handle but don't know how to say no "because he's the master" and wind up feeling used and abused afterwards. Now if this protector isn't having sex/play with her and is just answering questions and assigning her readings, and allowing her to accompany him and his sub to munches and clubs so she can see what appeals without being pressured for a few months, that has some reason. She would, in that way, be forced to think about stuff and set healthy boundaries beforehand and not afterwards. If he's doing anything other than talk to her, then no, it's a red flag.

happypervert -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/17/2007 3:43:42 PM)
I don't have experience with/as a protector, but I suppose I can see some logic for a new sub to have one to bounce ideas around or get opinions about potential doms. But a protector who forbids a sub to actually speak to others sounds like a nitwit to me.

Griswold -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/17/2007 3:58:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress hi everyone, i am posting this for a friend, i dont have first hand experience with this topic, so any feed back would be appreciated she is an older woman but very new to bdsm and she has got herself a "protector" that does not want her to talk to any other doms, he tells her she is too new, and that because she has a protector, doms should not approach her, or else they are not good doms in his estimation. also he does not seem to want her for himself she is not looking right now, but she does want to post the question to the fora with out ruffling his peacock (my word not hers) feathers. It normal to be so discouraged from talking seriously to a potential dom by a protector? Huh??????

FelinePersuasion -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/17/2007 4:24:29 PM)
I think it sounds like a crock of bullshit and an honest power trip. quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress hi everyone, i am posting this for a friend, i dont have first hand experience with this topic, so any feed back would be appreciated she is an older woman but very new to bdsm and she has got herself a "protector" that does not want her to talk to any other doms, he tells her she is too new, and that because she has a protector, doms should not approach her, or else they are not good doms in his estimation. also he does not seem to want her for himself she is not looking right now, but she does want to post the question to the fora with out ruffling his peacock (my word not hers) feathers. It normal to be so discouraged from talking seriously to a potential dom by a protector?

hawkwolf7 -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/17/2007 5:37:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress hi everyone, i am posting this for a friend, i dont have first hand experience with this topic, so any feed back would be appreciated she is an older woman but very new to bdsm and she has got herself a "protector" that does not want her to talk to any other doms, he tells her she is too new, and that because she has a protector, doms should not approach her, or else they are not good doms in his estimation. also he does not seem to want her for himself she is not looking right now, but she does want to post the question to the fora with out ruffling his peacock (my word not hers) feathers. It normal to be so discouraged from talking seriously to a potential dom by a protector? I'm not a big fan of the protector thing, but for reasons that many of the respondents seem to have missed, (or they simply misread). 1) CT says 'she has got herself a "protector"' The typical method of getting a protection relationship with a Dominant is that the submissive requests the relationship. Or, the Dom offers, and the sub accepts. In the peculiar circumstance where a Dom would appoint himself/herself as a protector, I cannot imagine the submissive accepting the relationship without thought or agreement. (This would be an example of someone simply incapable of being able to take care of themselves... same rationale as committing someone to a mental institution.) So, CT's friend either asked or was offered the relationship, and since the friend and the Dom didn't have a negotiated relationship at the time, she had the option to refuse. Which she apparently did not. 2) CT writes '"protector" that does not want her to talk to any other doms.' The Dom isn't forbidding her to talk to other Doms. It is what he wants... because she is new. Whether or not I agree with this approach, it is important to recognize that it isn't a command. (And, by the way, if it were a command, and she refused to obey, the consequence would be the removal of the protection relationship. Is that any loss if she feels that the protection isn't working?) 3) CT writes 'because she has a protector, doms should not approach her, or else they are not good doms in his estimation.' Once again, the Dom did not constrain her behavior. This is merely an observation... albeit from a traditional Leather point of view. Ignoring those who mis-read or mis-interpreted what CT wrote, there are quite a few who "don't get the protection thing". While I cannot address every situation where this could occur, I can share my experience. I only offer my protection to someone who practically begs it of me. They would have to be in a pretty desparate situation, and I would have to like them alot! And this is because I get nothing positive out of the relationship other than the satisfaction of doing a friend a favor. This person is not my submissive. I don't have a negotiated relationship where she commits to submit to me or obey me. Rather, I get lots of negatives out of the relationship, including her resentment when I reccommend she "go slow" and "think things through." And, I get a lot of crap from those who don't understand leather protocols. Bottom line, if someone decides they don't want my protection, then I am more than happy to release them to their own devices. It really is a major pain in the ass. So, CT, based on what you wrote, I don't see any evidence of anything questionable here. (Which doesn't mean there isn't, just that the evidence isn't here.) The fact that he doesn't want her as his submissive leans toward the idea that he's doing her a favor. Also, I can see some justification behind the idea of getting her some exposure to the lifestyle in general; the vocabulary, the protocols and such before she gets conned by some predator Dom. I can also see some advantages to introducing her to quality lifestylers first, just so she can learn what to look for in a potential Dom. I'm not sure I would make those same choices, but I can see a reasonable rationale. End of Rant, HawkWolf

CreativeDominant -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/17/2007 6:03:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hawkwolf7 quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress hi everyone, i am posting this for a friend, i dont have first hand experience with this topic, so any feed back would be appreciated she is an older woman but very new to bdsm and she has got herself a "protector" that does not want her to talk to any other doms, he tells her she is too new, and that because she has a protector, doms should not approach her, or else they are not good doms in his estimation. also he does not seem to want her for himself she is not looking right now, but she does want to post the question to the fora with out ruffling his peacock (my word not hers) feathers. It normal to be so discouraged from talking seriously to a potential dom by a protector? I'm not a big fan of the protector thing, but for reasons that many of the respondents seem to have missed, (or they simply misread). 1) CT says 'she has got herself a "protector"' The typical method of getting a protection relationship with a Dominant is that the submissive requests the relationship. Or, the Dom offers, and the sub accepts. In the peculiar circumstance where a Dom would appoint himself/herself as a protector, I cannot imagine the submissive accepting the relationship without thought or agreement. (This would be an example of someone simply incapable of being able to take care of themselves... same rationale as committing someone to a mental institution.) So, CT's friend either asked or was offered the relationship, and since the friend and the Dom didn't have a negotiated relationship at the time, she had the option to refuse. Which she apparently did not. 2) CT writes '"protector" that does not want her to talk to any other doms.' The Dom isn't forbidding her to talk to other Doms. It is what he wants... because she is new. Whether or not I agree with this approach, it is important to recognize that it isn't a command. (And, by the way, if it were a command, and she refused to obey, the consequence would be the removal of the protection relationship. Is that any loss if she feels that the protection isn't working?) 3) CT writes 'because she has a protector, doms should not approach her, or else they are not good doms in his estimation.' Once again, the Dom did not constrain her behavior. This is merely an observation... albeit from a traditional Leather point of view. Ignoring those who mis-read or mis-interpreted what CT wrote, there are quite a few who "don't get the protection thing". While I cannot address every situation where this could occur, I can share my experience. I only offer my protection to someone who practically begs it of me. They would have to be in a pretty desparate situation, and I would have to like them alot! And this is because I get nothing positive out of the relationship other than the satisfaction of doing a friend a favor. This person is not my submissive. I don't have a negotiated relationship where she commits to submit to me or obey me. Rather, I get lots of negatives out of the relationship, including her resentment when I reccommend she "go slow" and "think things through." And, I get a lot of crap from those who don't understand leather protocols. Bottom line, if someone decides they don't want my protection, then I am more than happy to release them to their own devices. It really is a major pain in the ass. So, CT, based on what you wrote, I don't see any evidence of anything questionable here. (Which doesn't mean there isn't, just that the evidence isn't here.) The fact that he doesn't want her as his submissive leans toward the idea that he's doing her a favor. Also, I can see some justification behind the idea of getting her some exposure to the lifestyle in general; the vocabulary, the protocols and such before she gets conned by some predator Dom. I can also see some advantages to introducing her to quality lifestylers first, just so she can learn what to look for in a potential Dom. I'm not sure I would make those same choices, but I can see a reasonable rationale. End of Rant, HawkWolf Whoaaaaaaaaaa...easy hawk....easy. I promise I'll buy you a drink next time I get up that way. I can't speak for anyone else, only myself and I put my answer out there at the start and why I would question it. As I said, I have dealt with a couple of submissives who had protectors wherein dealing with the submissive went fine until we (yes, we...I don't believe anyone is 100% wrong, nor 100% right in most 2-person dynamic situations) screwed things up. I have also dealt with a submissive who had a protection collar who could quote me chapter and verse of how things within a D/s relationship "should be done", according to her "protector/mentor"...not her thoughts arrived at from interaction with him and other dominants and other submissives like herself...but him alone. I've also done the reverse of that situation. .. her thoughts were the complete opposite of her protector...except when she was around her protector and his other submissives. A protector such as you describe yourself to be seems to be of the honorable and deliberately neutral (except to guide and advise) type that they all should be.

hawkwolf7 -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/17/2007 6:25:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant Whoaaaaaaaaaa...easy hawk....easy. I promise I'll buy you a drink next time I get up that way. I can't speak for anyone else, only myself and I put my answer out there at the start and why I would question it. As I said, I have dealt with a couple of submissives who had protectors wherein dealing with the submissive went fine until we (yes, we...I don't believe anyone is 100% wrong, nor 100% right in most 2-person dynamic situations) screwed things up. I have also dealt with a submissive who had a protection collar who could quote me chapter and verse of how things within a D/s relationship "should be done", according to her "protector/mentor"...not her thoughts arrived at from interaction with him and other dominants and other submissives like herself...but him alone. I've also done the reverse of that situation. A protector such as you describe yourself to be seems to be of the honorable and deliberately neutral (except to guide and advise) type that they all should be. Hi CD, My rant was not directed at you in particular, and not really anyone else either. In truth, my frustration arises from an artifact of human beings interacting on message boards. I have done my share of mis-reading and mis-interpreting, so really shouldn't bitch about anyone else doing it. So, if it sounded like I was attacking you or anyone else, I offer my apologies. But, getting together for a drink next time you're in town sounds good! I look forward to it. HW

ScreamerGirl -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/18/2007 3:28:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross I'll take the hardball line here- If she's a stable mature adult, then she shouldn't need a protector. If she's NOT a stable mature adult, then she shouldn't be trying to get into ANY relationships until she becomes so. I'll walk that line with you, LA. If you can't take care of yourself, you have no business meeting anyone. If you can, you have no need for a "protector". Sounds to me like it's a guy who wants to feel big and bad /shrug

TemptingNviceSub -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/18/2007 8:47:54 PM)
If the OP's friend is questioning it..then something is wrong..I know being new can be scarey..you are not sure of what is right or wrong..heck! you are not sure of much of anything,,that is where you simply need to figure out what is right or wrong for you..and since you are an adult and have lived in this big bad world without protection in the past ..then same applies in this situation. You use the brains you were born with,, the savvy you have developed over the years, and the common sense your mother hopefully instilled in you.Any other knowledge will come with time,and yes mistakes..to live in fear of making mistakes is simply not living...I think you should advice your friend to do her homework, read, research,ask many questions of many people and develop her own thoughts of what she seeks in HER life...Tempting

Archer -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/18/2007 9:22:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress hi everyone, i am posting this for a friend, i dont have first hand experience with this topic, so any feed back would be appreciated she is an older woman but very new to bdsm and she has got herself a "protector" that does not want her to talk to any other doms, he tells her she is too new, and that because she has a protector, doms should not approach her, or else they are not good doms in his estimation. also he does not seem to want her for himself she is not looking right now, but she does want to post the question to the fora with out ruffling his peacock (my word not hers) feathers. It normal to be so discouraged from talking seriously to a potential dom by a protector? OK what is pretty normal is that a human being trying to do two things improve their image in their own and other's eyes will often seek a "protector" situation. Many times because most folks have no clue about how to go about being a responsible protector they take on the "idealized" total control protector role. Some of them actually think they are doing the person a favor, others are trying mearly to boost their image in their minds eye. The best protectors I have ever seen have been those who prepare the person to protect themselves. The rest are a shadow form at best or a mockery or at worst predators practicing their skills until they can snag a target they want.

crouchingtigress -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/18/2007 9:32:39 PM)
thanks archer...in your experiance what is the protectors job description?

Archer -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/18/2007 9:45:08 PM)
Stand by observe the person's interactions and protect them from their own mistakes until they get enough information about BDSM D/s to make an informed decission. Teach them how to negotiate enough to protect themselves, teaach them the basics of how to evaluate risk and make sure they have examined the risks they are willing to take. In practice it's a matter of being in the room while they negotiate and reminding them of all the things they already know they need to address but might forget due to newness of the situation. You don't serve their interests very well if they never get to make mistakes and learn how to do it for themselves. Basicly you be their logical thought proceess until the newnes wears off and they are not as prone to dumb mistakes.

crouchingtigress -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/18/2007 9:47:56 PM)
thank you, archer, i am pretty sure the girl is really going to appreciate this information as i know i have.

BeachMystress -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/19/2007 1:23:57 AM)
Please tell me we are talking about a real time situation. Online "protectors" just make me laugh. Are we using "protector" as meaning a mentor? I very much believe in the mentor type relationship. I generally feel it should be done by someone of the same orientation as the person being mentored because they have a deeper understanding of the role, feelings and pitfalls facing someone new. (Unless this Dom was a sub at one time, I do not feel he can be a well rounded mentor for a sub.) There is only so much education you can get from books and websites. When someone takes that first big step into the real time world of BDSM, it can be very comforting to have someone who "has your back" for safecalls, to discuss the strange and weird feelings that come up and whom you can call for advice. If we are talking someone who is functioning as a protector to keep the sub from falling prey to predators, it is not normal for such a person to tell the sub that they can not talk with other Dominants. This type of protector usually is someone who has a lot of connections in the local scene and can find out the reputation of a Dominant who is courting the sub. If they're unable to find anyone who knows the Dominant in person, they will talk with the Dominant and get a rough idea of their intentions, experience level and knowledge. They ask tons of questions and then give the sub their opinion as to this person's qualifications as a Dominant. It is a way to help the new submissive learn how to judge potential partners. It sounds to me like the Dominant your friend is being "protected by" is more interested in the ego strokes of being called a "protector" and the power of denying her to other Dominants.

WhiplashSmile -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/19/2007 2:59:13 AM)
Hell, was that not the function of ones parents when they were growing up? This is Butt stupid! Excuse me, I don't see "Seeking Protector" as an option on this site even. How many profiles, state Seeking Protector either? How many Doms offer to become "protectors" right on their profiles! Now, it's wise she has some good friends like yourself. As a Friend you are a form of protector, in terms of being somebody sane to talk to about things. Hell, it's wise to Have friends in the lifestyle itself to talk about shit with... Keeps one in check with reality..

wandersalone -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/19/2007 3:49:48 AM)
I have known people who had online protectors and whilst I do not quite understand the concept of it I will attempt to relay one possible explanation of how it works (I think) A submissive/slave has had numerous negative online experiences with dominants (they were online relationships). After feeling that she lacked sound judgement due to her strong desire to be in a d/s relationship she asked a friend to be her protector. His role was to read her emails to and from dominants and her chat logs and to give her advice as to whether these people were suitable for her to continue communicating with. This type of scenario would not work for me as I prefer to make my own decisions and own my successes and mistakes however it did work for one person I know. The protector relationship ended when she got collared. I don’t think that there is any guidebook that outlines the role of protectors however if your friend has some questions about this guy’s actions then I would suggest that she needs to discuss this with him and get his role clarified. Some questions she could ask – Why did you agree/offer to become my protector? What does this role mean to you? What are the criteria you will use to determine whether someone is suitable for me? How will you (and I) know when I am ready to start meeting dominants? How can we renegotiate the protector relationship? How can you or I end this relationship? And again, I don’t have any personal experience of having, needing or wanting a protector however I do like a good discussion [:)]

bandit25 -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/19/2007 3:53:08 AM)
OK, I am going to say this one more time. This is the Internet...the INTERNET. If you encounter an "online predator", whatever the hell that is, TURN OFF YOUR PC! It's that fucking simple.

wandersalone -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/19/2007 4:39:29 AM)
I totally agree with you however given the number of threads on here and many other websites about negative experiences with people despite a whole lot of warning flags some people for whatever reason still do not turn off the computer.

WhiplashSmile -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/19/2007 6:22:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bandit25 OK, I am going to say this one more time. This is the Internet...the INTERNET. If you encounter an "online predator", whatever the hell that is, TURN OFF YOUR PC! It's that fucking simple. That or the Block/Ignore functions in most Email and IM communications software as well!...

WhiplashSmile -> RE: what are they protecting exactly? (4/19/2007 6:24:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Stand by observe the person's interactions and protect them from their own mistakes until they get enough information about BDSM D/s to make an informed decission. Teach them how to negotiate enough to protect themselves, teaach them the basics of how to evaluate risk and make sure they have examined the risks they are willing to take. In practice it's a matter of being in the room while they negotiate and reminding them of all the things they already know they need to address but might forget due to newness of the situation. You don't serve their interests very well if they never get to make mistakes and learn how to do it for themselves. Basicly you be their logical thought proceess until the newnes wears off and they are not as prone to dumb mistakes. Would it not be wiser if she sought out Friends to Learn about BDSM dynamics first?? To not have "one protector" but to interact and talk with as many people about BDSM, learn all the in's and out's. The "protector" will or may only have one biased view upon the lifestyle itself..

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