bdsm and the law (Full Version)

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CharmingDivinity -> bdsm and the law (4/20/2007 12:41:12 AM)

hello everyone, I am fairly new to all of this and was looking for a few answers. I hope someone can help me out. I am interested in this mistress. she has had me rent a dungeon so we can play. This will be a first time experience for me and I just didn't know if there are certain laws I need to be aware of that I could get myself into trouble for. being that I am renting the space could this fall under prostitution if something sexual happened? would it be considered assault if she were to use a flogger on me? are there other laws that would come into effect that I am not thinking of at this time? I am from NJ and I understand the laws change from place to place. So if anyone could help me out I would be most appriciative. Thank you for your time and effort to respond.
Karl 




santalia -> RE: bdsm and the law (4/20/2007 1:05:10 AM)

Greetings

There is a possibility the answer might be yes to all of the above questions. But, the answer is dependent upon what you choose to do with the information you have firsthand knowledge of after you leave the dungeon. If you were to call the police and claim assault and battery and all that wonderful stuff, then there you go, you have an automatic yes.

On the prostitution question....You might want to think about it this way: do people who do nothing but rent a hotel room and happen to have sex inside that room get charged with prostitution? No...they don't, unless one or more of those present is a prostitute and they get caught in the act and the authorities can prove money was exchanged. Just renting a space in which to do your thing doesn't constitute payment for services rendered.

Well wishes

-santalia{JR}t




BeachMystress -> RE: bdsm and the law (4/20/2007 1:30:40 AM)

You may wish to read http://gloria-brame.com/domidea/rumpoule.htm and visit the links listed on http://www.domsubfriends.com/cgi-local/wwwdir/db.cgi?db=res&uid=default&category=LAW+INFO&view_records=View+Records





onestandingstill -> RE: bdsm and the law (4/20/2007 8:50:07 AM)

Congratulations on being at the brink of your first experience.[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m9.gif[/image][image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m6.gif[/image]

I'm sure this is an anxious and exciting concept that's just got your mind running like a race car.
No, I don't think unless you pay her directly for services rendered that this can be construed as prostitution.
Yes, most states have domestic abuse laws, and it can be perceived that way.
We here in the DC area have the public dungeon the Crucible.
Most weekends there's lots of couples playing in the dungeon.
The local police stop in often and have a bottle of water or soda and watch the activities.
They've never caused one problem or arrested any one even though there have been very hard impact scenes happening during their visits.
I think most cops are not going to be concerned if both adults are consenting to the play.
Over all I'd say cherish this new beginning, concern yourself with the interactions of you and the Mistress and leave all this concern over the law at the door when you go inside to play.
Best Wishes For You To Enjoy This Experience,
suzanne




LadyHugs -> RE: bdsm and the law (4/20/2007 10:09:14 AM)

Dear CharmingDivinity, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
Laws in different states and or commonwealths in the USA, as well as US Federal Laws that have more enforcement weight are often used, to include municiple laws, which are within counties, townships and or cities.
 
In renting a dungeon, if it is in a private home, would and or could fall under business law and or debauchery, which is similiar to prostitution and or may be read under the codes of law governing 'operating a bawdy house.'  I would research for your particular place this is happening under debauchery, bawdy house and make sure that by mere rental for BDSM play you are doing so informed.
 
Renting a personal dungeon can be violations of local municiple codes as operating a business without a license, insurance, etc.  So, if I went to Mistress X and paid her financially or bartered, such as exchange for services, e.g. painting--it still is a contract and business transaction.
 
There also needs to be a conversation with the person renting the dungeon of all the what if [list of things that could go wrong]--what their responsibilities are and what yours is.  How liable will you be?
Furniture failure, e.g. St. Andrew Cross falls apart, you fall and get hurt--who pays for the St. Andrew's Cross or insurance on injuries, etc.  I would treat any rental as pure business.  I make sure you are not left holding the bag to a bad bill of goods.  You might have a fragile St. Andrew's Cross and never know it--but the renter might, and is looking for an incident to pay for repairs or replacement--at a 'sucker's' expense.
 
I would also make sure there are a list of 'deal breakers' in the negotiation of the rental.  For examples, no show by the Domina, faulty or risky to health furniture and or premises, such as frayed wire that are arching and things like that which go against your grain of common sense.
 
In all states and commonwealths within the USA, any touching of another without consent is deemed an assault.  Some states/commonwealth do not see 'consent' as a justification for marking, injuires and or bruisings which any lay person would see as injuries as 'consensual.'  The police cannot ignore and by law must arrest the person who is the 'flogger' per se.  Again, the federal, state and municiple laws should be researched. 
 
As far as sex goes -- this too must be researched.  In some states, sex in any position other than missionary is illegal.  This is a law in Virginia.  Laws on the books, although not strictly enforced--are still laws if the authorities want to 'get you.'
 
Even in Washington, DC -- The Crucible a club which is licensed and deemed a business could be shut down at the pleasure of the police at any time.  All they need to have is a complaint or a police officer in a 'by the book/law' attitude.  But, when it comes to private homes--you are treading in more murky waters; as unlicensed business will lean towards illegal activities and then the nit picking and pulling laws that might be silly for today's standaards in order to 'get you' if they so choose.
 
The entire community is on a streak of good luck.  However, many laws placed on the books to keep within social and civilized behavior are on the books which can be used to slap down all the freedoms enjoyed currently.  History repeats and there will be a time when everybody has to go underground again.  We're just not at that point in historical time lines yet.  The Government will never totally throw away all the powers to reign in any group within the boarders of the USA. 
 
Inside a private home, the authorities can respond to what they 'believe' in good faith, is an emergency.  Some single tails sound like a gun firing like a .22 cal.  Some floggers slap and sound like someone is being subjected to beatings of a serious nature.  With the latest massacre, sounds will be something people will be keen on.  The police do not need a warrant to enter a premise if they feel an emergency is happening, especially injury and or death to humans.
The plain view law is where an officer can look and if there is something they see on the surface can give probable cause for further investigation to which a warrant for a search can be obtained and served.  Some laws make it illegal to posses any weapons, to include floggers, whips inside a home.
 
My advice would be, to notify the police department that at such a location a loud and rambunctious gathering will take place that will be very private and not open to the public.  So, it will be contained in the house.  There might be noises that may alarm others.  I would also notify the neighbors  that there might be some noises.  If they are concerned, call first before calling the police.  At times, when I was practicing for a play, a Western--we used cap guns as props.  Of course this would alarm people.  So, I've often prewarned the police as to calm those who might call and also warned my neighbors.  I've used this for scenes as well, as single tails sound like a gun. 
 
I think it is wonderful for neighbors to be concerned for other's safety.  So, in my mind's eyes--I have always appreciated my neighbors warning me/my family when they were to have an odd ongoings in their home.  It gave me permission to not be so concerned.  Perhaps this may help in your situation.

I don't mean to sound like a wet blanket on your excitement in your first endeavors however, planning and research empowers anybody to make better decisions.
 
Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

 




MisPandora -> RE: bdsm and the law (4/20/2007 1:04:29 PM)

NJ has some pretty harsh laws AND case precedent where it comes to professional domination.  I can't say that I'd be going anywhere near a pro dungeon in NJ given that there was a successful prosecution in Camden County several years back.




MisPandora -> RE: bdsm and the law (4/20/2007 1:06:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill

Congratulations on being at the brink of your first experience.[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m9.gif[/image][image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m6.gif[/image]

I'm sure this is an anxious and exciting concept that's just got your mind running like a race car.
No, I don't think unless you pay her directly for services rendered that this can be construed as prostitution.
Yes, most states have domestic abuse laws, and it can be perceived that way.
We here in the DC area have the public dungeon the Crucible.
Most weekends there's lots of couples playing in the dungeon.
The local police stop in often and have a bottle of water or soda and watch the activities.
They've never caused one problem or arrested any one even though there have been very hard impact scenes happening during their visits.
I think most cops are not going to be concerned if both adults are consenting to the play.
Over all I'd say cherish this new beginning, concern yourself with the interactions of you and the Mistress and leave all this concern over the law at the door when you go inside to play.
Best Wishes For You To Enjoy This Experience,
suzanne


suzanne,

The difference is that there are no "Crucibles" in NJ, and no MPD friendlies surrounding the dungeon.  It's a different world up here.  We've had successful prosecutions against prodoms in PA and NJ as recent as two years ago, and likely, this fellow would be renting a pro dungeon.




flightinthenight -> RE: bdsm and the law (4/20/2007 1:51:26 PM)

Back in the day in Texas I recall there being a
very good situation with respect to BDSM. Consent is deemed a defense to "assualt", which is the normal problem with BDSM issues, in that many states do not accept the consent of the person "being hit" as a defense. There is an exception to this, as in most states where consent is a defense, and that is if the actions cause "Serious bodily injury". But that is probably about as good as it is in any state.





flightinthenight -> RE: bdsm and the law (4/20/2007 1:57:38 PM)

addtion:

A buddy of mine loves knife play and in Calif where he lives it is against the law to CARRY on your person any switch blade over 2"... it is not against the law to own them...crazy
sounds like catch 22..

Further you should learn about your state where you live in and the particular law there as in some states  sexual activity is illegal with someone who is "physically helpless" and deemed "sexual assault." However, sexual assault is defined as sexual intercourse (including everything from sex to touching yourself in someone's presence) without the other person's consent, and “Physically helpless” means that "a person is unconscious, asleep, or for any other reason is physically unable to communicate unwillingness to an act."




AAkasha -> RE: bdsm and the law (4/20/2007 2:28:31 PM)

Damn. I thought this was a thread about the pleasure in dominating lawyers.

Akasha




WhyteRavenne -> RE: bdsm and the law (4/20/2007 2:33:32 PM)

One thing you should be very certain of is residential and commercial zoning.  Many things that happen in a residential zone is considered a private domain, and as long as the consentuality is there, there is no problems.  Commercial zoning, well, find out the legality in your area, some areas can be okay with sensual play after hours, as long as no money is being passed, while others still require an exotic entertainment license.

Good luck!




MariaB -> RE: bdsm and the law (4/20/2007 3:12:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill

Congratulations on being at the brink of your first experience.[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m9.gif[/image][image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m6.gif[/image]

The local police stop in often and have a bottle of water or soda and watch the activities.
They've never caused one problem or arrested any one even though there have been very hard impact scenes happening during their visits.



lol so the cops are voyeurs and the players exhibitionists?




submarriner -> RE: bdsm and the law (4/20/2007 7:30:40 PM)

You people take all the fun out of a new experience. All of the above advice is reasonable legal theory, but keep in mind that if a municipality wishes to make an example at your expense, you could still be arrested.  It could take years, and money to restore your damaged reputation, not to mention the embarassement of your friends/business relationships. If you are concerned about the consequences, try to meet with the Domme a few times without play to determine whether there are risks. A pro-domme is not going to meet in a vanilla setting, but an interview is usually given on the first meeting. This meeting allows both parties to become acquainted with the desires of both parties. Go slow, take some of the advice mentioned about, and have fun. Another outlet might be a national convention where parties are screened prior to attending, and each signs a release of proper age, and mutual consent.  




drbane -> RE: bdsm and the law (5/3/2007 4:25:36 PM)

I had a thought. Lets whip all the lawyers and the legislators!

Oh but wait, they are already the regulars with the local pro-domme. (sic)

Dr. Bane [8|]




LadyPact -> RE: bdsm and the law (5/3/2007 6:17:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Damn. I thought this was a thread about the pleasure in dominating lawyers.

Akasha



Maybe We should start one.  Can't think of a more popular profession that I would like to beat..... Except maybe politicians.




MDJour -> RE: bdsm and the law (5/3/2007 7:07:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Damn. I thought this was a thread about the pleasure in dominating lawyers.

Akasha



Maybe We should start one.  Can't think of a more popular profession that I would like to beat..... Except maybe politicians.


I've had a good number of lawyers, yep they're fun and take it like big boys and girls. But My personal favorites are the Military Police, sercurity guys and the like. Ummmm, love 'em.




LadyPact -> RE: bdsm and the law (5/3/2007 7:10:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MDJour

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Damn. I thought this was a thread about the pleasure in dominating lawyers.

Akasha



Maybe We should start one.  Can't think of a more popular profession that I would like to beat..... Except maybe politicians.


I've had a good number of lawyers, yep they're fun and take it like big boys and girls. But My personal favorites are the Military Police, sercurity guys and the like. Ummmm, love 'em.


Hi neighbor,
 
Yes, MP's are ok, but they just don't have the hair for pulling that makes it so much fun. 




FetishFulfilled -> RE: bdsm and the law (5/21/2007 11:24:36 PM)

Greetings...

I too am new (to being a Mistress).. and I have a few questions..

So I'm considering becoming 'pro'.. because quite a few boys have offered Me gifts...cash..etc.. and let's face it.. many of us are flat broke, and a few extra bucks to help with bills here or there is often greatly appreciated...

I understand that 'sex' is a big nono especially when we're considering monitary situations and scene situations in general...

but what EXACTLY is constituted as 'sex'?

Is cbt considered 'sex' because there is substantial penile contact even with a hand?

Are strapons, dildos, and plugs considered 'sex' because there is penetration?

How about 'oral sex?'  is that considered actual 'sex'?

..or is vaginal to penile contact purely considered 'sex'?

Are gifts considered payment (ie an outfit, dinner, drinks, shoes, jewelry, etc?)

If I draw up a consentual play contract and no 'sex' is checked, I'm just curious as to what constitutes as acutal 'sex.'

The reason I'm asking is I'm from Michigan.. a big kink state, and I know of atleast one Pro that has been busted in My state.  The #1 request I've had from boys has been '...use a strapon on me...' in short... now.. I'm not saying that I might or might not do that.. but I want to play it safe.

Please note.. this is only a consideration... I'm on an info gathering search before I accept even dinner from a boy..lol.  I don't even know if I could have it on My conscience.

Can any of You help Me out??

Thanks so much!




MamaDomme -> RE: bdsm and the law (5/22/2007 5:14:03 AM)

Be sure to check your local codes-- it all depends on state, county and city laws.  You need to see if it could fall under the definition of lewdness for just a flogging.

Pretty sure that strap-on usage could fall under the prostitution laws.

Here is a link to the Michigan Penal Code:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(1chrtgzyofnrzfqyqaueydu2))/mileg.aspx?page=home




FetishFulfilled -> RE: bdsm and the law (5/22/2007 9:46:41 AM)

hmm I did searches for flagilation... BDSM sex... Dominatrix.. and nothing came up...




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