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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/28/2007 12:03:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

My belief that guns should be banned does not equate to me saying you shouldnt carry one. As the law stands you can (as i have said before) and therefore it is your choice to carry one or not (also as i have said before).
As for reading your post, i did and to be honest i have no time for people who resort to insults just because i disagree.

How do you ban a gun and still be ok with somebody carrying one? If you have a problem with guns to the extent that they should be banned it OBVIOUSLY means you have a problem with me carrying ones.

Hmm I think [insert hypothetcal ethnic/racial minority group] living in this country should be killed.

What do mean I said I had a problem with [hypothetical group] breathing in this country. I didn't say anything about breathing. It's perfectly legal for them to breathe now I just think they should all die. Totally different.

you know what, this is going on your greatest hits wall

(in reply to missturbation)

RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/28/2007 12:09:33 PM

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Better to shoot and stop one person before they kill innocents, rather than the innocents die just because they were there. One security guard with a gun could have stopped the recent mass-murderer.

(in reply to missturbation)

RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/28/2007 12:14:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

My belief that guns should be banned does not equate to me saying you shouldnt carry one. As the law stands you can (as i have said before) and therefore it is your choice to carry one or not (also as i have said before).
As for reading your post, i did and to be honest i have no time for people who resort to insults just because i disagree.

How do you ban a gun and still be ok with somebody carrying one? If you have a problem with guns to the extent that they should be banned it OBVIOUSLY means you have a problem with me carrying ones
Whilst it is law for you to be able to carry one i have no issue with you choosing to do so. I don't like it but i would not infringe on your legal rights and say you shouldnt carry one.

Hmm I think [insert hypothetcal ethnic/racial minority group] living in this country should be killed.

What do mean I said I had a problem with [hypothetical group] breathing in this country. I didn't say anything about breathing. It's perfectly legal for them to breathe now I just think they should all die. Totally different.

you know what, this is going on your greatest hits wall

Who said anything about race etc? But saying that a lot of crime is race crime. Could it be prevented? My solution may not be the right one but as i have said before hes got a gun so ill carry one is not a solution and that is the only solution i hear coming from anyone here.
Did i mention i'm against illegal drugs too??????????? lol

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/28/2007 12:18:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MellowSir

Better to shoot and stop one person before they kill innocents, rather than the innocents die just because they were there. One security guard with a gun could have stopped the recent mass-murderer.

But innocents are dieing !!
Over a 1000 died in two years in gun accidents.
Instead of the 'lets arm everybody' philosophy could we not find a better solution ?

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to MellowSir)

RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/28/2007 7:51:22 PM

GoddessDustyGold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Ok i'll go with that although i am still opposed to members of the public having guns.
What about the accidental deaths that occur? Over a 1000 in two years i covered. Needless loss of life wouldnt you say?

quote:

Guns are created to kill, cars, alcohol, water is not.
I am against crime caused by any of these of course but they were not created with the sole purpose of killing or injuring people.
I am against irresponsible people handling guns and considering the amount of accidents a lot of people are incompetent when it comes to handling them. Yes cars get put in the wrong peoples hands and drink and drive and injure or kill. People kill people, not guns but to put a weapon made to kill in someones hands is just asking for trouble.

Would it help to say that, yes, it is a shame and a "needless" loss of life that there have been 1,000 accidental gun death in 2 years? And then I remind you that guns were not created to kill "accidentally". The same as swimming pools were created for a different purpose and alcohol was stumbled upon and learned that it engendered wonderful feelings but it was not meant to kill or be abused, and the convenience of motor transportation was for a different purpose.
This is relevant to the discussion, because it appears that you are now pushing us on the fact that there are all these accidental gun deaths, and that alone should and could be a reason to ban all the guns. You maintain this position even whil we explain to you that your position is flawed because 1,000 acidental gun deths, in and of itself, is not a valid argument to ban all guns. The law abiding citizens of wherever will then not be armed, but the criminal wil have a heyday. Open season on John Q Public! He doesn;t have a gun, but I do! You want to trade 1,000 accidental gun death (which is an absolute shame...no question!) for 10,000 death by other violetn crime because the victim didn't even have the option of a line of equal defense? In this world, and I know you don't like this world, but it is the only one we have to live in, we have to weight the benefits against the negatives. The benefits, unfortunately,way outweigh the negatives! Well, because there are careless people who do not watch their children or fence their pool, then we should ban all pools, and because there are irresponsible people who abuse alcohol and drive cars while drunk, we should ban all cars and all alcohol. And the hell with the 98% of the people who are irrespionsible and careless...Because we must save the 2%...
Soon, we will be in a plastic bubble because we can't do anyting for fear it will be used incorrectly and cause a death.
Missturbation, it would be a wonderful world if everything was perfect, but it is not, it is not going to be, and all people want to do is make you think. It is perfectly alright fo ryou to not like guns, and not want a gun yourself. It isnot alright for you to say we are doing nothing wrong by having a gun, but...you still think they should all be banned. Because anybody who has a gun, in your opinion, is going to be irresponsible and it will only do harm. Ya know....guns can also save lives.
As Pulpsmack said...you have the right to your opinion...but stating over and over that you think this because it is your opinion and then coming back and continuing to say the same thing without offering any solution other than what will make you feel good and behappy and have a false sense of security, is very frustrating. Make a strong case about how you are going to create Utopia, or bow out gracefully with a little dignity.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
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Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to missturbation)

RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/28/2007 8:12:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: MellowSir

Better to shoot and stop one person before they kill innocents, rather than the innocents die just because they were there. One security guard with a gun could have stopped the recent mass-murderer.

But innocents are dieing !!
Over a 1000 died in two years in gun accidents.
Instead of the 'lets arm everybody' philosophy could we not find a better solution ?

Miss i htink this is all about where people want to draw the line of compromise. The point it that we cannot have it both ways. We over hear would rather see a rapist dead from a gun than to see a woman get raped.

You would rather see the woman get raped and both stay alive in the process.

i am not saying you said that nor am i putting words in your mouth here but this is my observation of literally all these gun arguments. It all comes down to where people want to draw the line and 2 different groups with 2 different approaches wil never see eye to eye on this.

The very bottom line is that you cannot have your pie and eat too no matter how you want to slice it.

We chose a dead rapist, you choose a raped gurl, thats what is comes down to in practice. The solution to the accidents is prosecuting gun owners for involuntary man slaughter or something along those lines for not keeping a weapon properly stored etc, which is not to say impair the usage of that same weapon.

It comes down to educating your kids about them, my father had his rifles laying all over the house loaded and we would not "dare" touch them.

Solving the problem with a bn simply is not the answer nor the solution. not in this country.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to missturbation)

RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/28/2007 8:24:30 PM

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It isnot alright for you to say we are doing nothing wrong by having a gun, but...you still think they should all be banned.
I said as it was legal for you to carry a gun who am i to say you can't. There is a big difference. I don't believe its right for citizens to have guns but as the law stands i wont judge those who have as it is their legal right to carry one.

Because anybody who has a gun, in your opinion, is going to be irresponsible and it will only do harm. Ya know....guns can also save lives
No, i said there are irresponsible people out there who own guns, i never said everyone who had a gun was irresponsible.

As Pulpsmack said...you have the right to your opinion...but stating over and over that you think this because it is your opinion and then coming back and continuing to say the same thing without offering any solution other than what will make you feel good and behappy and have a false sense of security, is very frustrating. Make a strong case about how you are going to create Utopia, or bow out gracefully with a little dignity.
Laughable i have had to repeat my stance because so many people have questioned, misunderstood or twisted what i have written. I have no need to bow out gracefully my opinion is my opinion and im entitled to it just as you are entitled to yours of a gun carrying world.

This is relevant to the discussion, because it appears that you are now pushing us on the fact that there are all these accidental gun deaths, and that alone should and could be a reason to ban all the guns.
No, not the only reason but the agenda seemed to be innocent people were dieing because they didnt have a gun so the other side of the coin is that innocent people are dieing because people do carry guns. You can't have it all ways.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/28/2007 8:33:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: MellowSir

Better to shoot and stop one person before they kill innocents, rather than the innocents die just because they were there. One security guard with a gun could have stopped the recent mass-murderer.

But innocents are dieing !!
Over a 1000 died in two years in gun accidents.
Instead of the 'lets arm everybody' philosophy could we not find a better solution ?

Miss i htink this is all about where people want to draw the line of compromise. The point it that we cannot have it both ways. We over hear would rather see a rapist dead from a gun than to see a woman get raped.

You would rather see the woman get raped and both stay alive in the process.

i am not saying you said that nor am i putting words in your mouth here but this is my observation of literally all these gun arguments. It all comes down to where people want to draw the line and 2 different groups with 2 different approaches wil never see eye to eye on this.

The very bottom line is that you cannot have your pie and eat too no matter how you want to slice it.

We chose a dead rapist, you choose a raped gurl, thats what is comes down to in practice. The solution to the accidents is prosecuting gun owners for involuntary man slaughter or something along those lines for not keeping a weapon properly stored etc, which is not to say impair the usage of that same weapon.

It comes down to educating your kids about them, my father had his rifles laying all over the house loaded and we would not "dare" touch them.

Solving the problem with a bn simply is not the answer nor the solution. not in this country.

I never said that my opinion was the absolute solution but as i have said i don't believe your solution of 'everyone should be armed' is the solution either.
You cannot guarantee no matter how educated your child is on guns that they wont touch them. You may not have but you are not every child.
Yes, i would definately prefer the rapist and the raped woman alive. I personally have fought off a rapist without a gun. Did he have a gun - no and i dont know what would have happened had he had one. Even considering i could use a gun to protect myself from a rapist i would not choose not to have one.
What amazes me is the general attitude of 'if you can't beat them join them' when it comes to guns. No thought of a solution from anyone here other than 'hes got one so ive got one'.
It doesn't really matter how many of you or how many times you tell me that guns should not be banned and citizens should have the right to carry them i will not agree and it is my perogative to not agree.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to Real0ne)

RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/28/2007 9:16:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
No thought of a solution from anyone here other than 'hes got one so ive got one'.

well i just stated one in my prev post. of course you have a right to your opinion. i think what is being lost in all this is that they are saying that because that "is" the end result and reality of it here. Thus their opinion.

you are surrounded by ocean and it is a little easier to keep guns uot its not the same here and the bottom line here is that the criminals "will" get a gun regardless of the law. That is why we so adamitly make this claim because that is the reality here.

we simply do not have such an imposing government as you do and with it comes with different responsibilities and problems.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to missturbation)

RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/28/2007 9:35:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Casie

but if law abiding citizens are defenseless and criminals are still armed they will attack the unarmed citizens at a higher rate because they will have no fear of being met with any type of adequate resistance.

Was having a discussion with a person down on the docks who pointed his finger at me and said "what if this was a gun?"

Since the human reaction time is about 3/4 of a second, I used this to my advantage and jumped in close. I pushed his arm about 6 inches to the left and shoved my body up against his trapping his arm between us. Then I politely mentioned to him that right about now I would be destroying his testicles with my knees.

He stared at me shocked.

If somebody is going to kill you they will walk up to you and kill you. If they are pointing a gun at you and you are not dead, their intention is not to kill you at that moment. If their intention is to kill you and they walk up to you, point a gun at you, and kill you, the fact that you are wearing a gun in a holster at your side will not help you much. While I am sure there are specific instances where having a gun would make a difference, the thing which makes the most difference is awareness, attitude, experience, and training.

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

Sinergy

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(in reply to Casie)

RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/28/2007 9:38:48 PM

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yes let's ALL have guns, that will fix EVERYTHING! lmao. Just like Iraq where every household has their own AK47, and EVERYONE is sooo safe!

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/28/2007 9:42:08 PM

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This isn't Iraq and american fanatics are quite few by comparison. I won't shoot my neighbor if he's not the same religion lol

(in reply to subgirlDomguy)

RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/29/2007 4:20:18 PM

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So I guess that makes the US more like England where NOBODY has guns (even the police for the most part) and NO ONE hardly is ever shot (muder rate 1/10th of here)! Hmmm. Sounds like no guns = very few killings. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Frankly it sounds like ppl in states like TX and VA where every other person is packing deserve what they get - killed by guns!!

(in reply to MellowSir)

RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/29/2007 5:47:06 PM

PenetratingGaze

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I, personally, find that the person who acted most heroically at VT, was a holocaust survivor/Israeli citizen. Never again, doesn't pertain to just the Jewish people. Too many Americans, it has been pointed out, reacted just the way they have been conditioned to: Run away, hide, do not confront. Damn, I miss the heroic values sytems of Beowolf, the Celts, and even Sparta. Not to mention the virtues esteemed (if not always followed) in the Chivalric and Bushido Codes. If anyone is interested, I've started a thread with an idea that might help in this area. Would love to hear ALL you fine peoples ideas on it.

(in reply to subgirlDomguy)

RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/29/2007 5:53:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subgirlDomguy

So I guess that makes the US more like England where NOBODY has guns (even the police for the most part) and NO ONE hardly is ever shot (muder rate 1/10th of here)! Hmmm. Sounds like no guns = very few killings. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Frankly it sounds like ppl in states like TX and VA where every other person is packing deserve what they get - killed by guns!!

Are you advocating that people in Texas and Virginia be killed because they live in a state that allows firearms to be purchased by citizens? I find that incredibly ignorant and incendiary, and I seriously hope that a moderator reviews that statement closely to see whether or not it has violated any of the TOS rules for this forum.

Putting that aside, I think that your statements are misleading at best -- outright lies in several cases. This may be due to ignorance and a lack of effort on your own part to research the facts, but I'm not overly inclined to go "easy" on you after you have advocated the murder of my fiance's entire family.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page40.asp

This chart shows the rate of homicide in the United Kingdom from 1993 - 2006. If you are wondering when the UK passed the gun laws that you are citing, it was in 1998. As you can see, the years immediately following 1998 showed a rapid and overwhelming increase in the number of homicides committed in the UK. Since 2003 there has been a decline, but even as of 2006, the murder rate in the UK is still above where it was when firearms were outlawed in 1998.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page27.asp

This chart shows the number of rape offences committed against women over the same timespan. While some changes were made in 1998 regarding the method of reporting these instances, you can see that it has still rapidly risen from the year firearms were outlawed and shows no signs of slowing down.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page48.asp

This chart shows charges related to the illegal possession of weapons. This offence was created in the same year as guns were outlawed in the UK, and has predictably skyrocketed since its introduction.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page42.asp

This chart shows acts of serious wounding or endangering life. As the chart itself specifies, with the exception of a small drop in 2005/2006, the rate has risen every year from 1995 onward, paying no heed to the outlaw of firearms in that country.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page66.asp

This chart shows the general increase in violent crime since the outlaw of firearms in 1998.

==================================================================

In response to school shootings in this country, the United States introduced the "Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990" as part of the 1990 Crime Bill. It was signed into law by President George H.W. Bush, a Republican. Since it was signed into law, the rate of firearms-related violence in schools has risen by 300%. Since the law was created, 93 innocent people have been killed in schools.

The nation of Israel faced a similar dilemma in 1974 when a Palestinian terrorist attacked a school and killed 22 people. Instead of taking the approach adopted by the United States, however, Israel took the opposite approach. A program was created allowing armed citizen guards, teachers, and aids to enter schools to protect children. As a result of this decision, there would not be a single incident in which a child would be murdered in an Israeli school until 2002 when a man with a fully-automatic assault weapon attacked a school. Rather than allowing the man slaughter scores of children, he was confronted by armed citizens of Israel and killed.

-Sicarius

(in reply to subgirlDomguy)

RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/29/2007 6:57:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
But innocents are dieing !!

You are right, innocents are dying, and it is a tragedy.
However 10 years after Tony Blair banned handguns there is 50% more violent crime involving guns in England, that's what the Daily Telegraph reported earlier this month in a story about robberies tripling over last year.

I think England and Wales should have the types of laws they deem best, whatever works for them is fine with me.

In my case I have seen innocent victims horribly injured, if not killed, because they were barred, by law, from having a personal firearm in the city they resided in.
Why should a little girl, 90lbs and 5'4" be brutalized by 4 large, let's euphemistically call them culturally deprived young men, who she saw in plenty of time to dispatch if she had been able to have a firearm, the law barred her from having one, so she could only take the beating and stomping. Now maybe you don't have, in England, such gentlemen. However in America we have millions of them and more and more America becomes increasingly like that and less than it was in the 1950s.

If you have a chance to travel please come and visit Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Oakland, Detroit, New York City, and other parts of America, you will see that good people do need their firearms because our streets are NOT safe.

I thank you for you contributions to this discussion and you are entitled to your viewpoint and while you are someone of a varying opinion from my own I think you are a fair person overall.

(in reply to missturbation)

RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/29/2007 7:12:06 PM

PenetratingGaze

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If all guns are banned, I know at least that I could still protect myself, my Mistress and Our home. Krav Maga and a house full of Swords, maces, dirks and crossbows can really come in handy. But all in all, I'd much prefer to have the power and range advantage afforded by shotguns, .40S&W or a .50AE Desert Eagle. But then I am a SCAdian who supports the JPFO and NRA-hey, who am I to argue with the prophet Moses.

(in reply to Kaledorus)

RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/29/2007 8:09:43 PM

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YES that's exactly what I'm saying. LIVE BY THE GUN DIE BY THE GUN! And nowhere did you dispute the facts that in civilized countries like England (most of Europe actually) and Japan where almost NO ONE has guns, they also have almost NO gun crimes! duh! NO GUNS = NO GUN CRIMES. LOTS OF GUNS=LOTS OF GUN DEATHS. jeez get a brain.

(in reply to Sicarius)

RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/29/2007 8:13:03 PM

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Comparing the overall murder rates per 100,000 citizens, one comes up with the following numbers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rate
among others, for 2004:
USA 5.5
Germany 0.98
Not every single murder in the US can be traced back to guns, but I hope you agree with me that there is something fundamentally wrong with a murder rate that is 5 times as high. (those numbers are from the United Nations, the FBI and the german counterpart, the Bundeskriminalamt, as you can find in the sources listed at the bottom of that page)
This site lists the recent shootings in schools worldwide: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html.
Is it just coincidence that 75% of the listed tragedies happened in the US?

If you sow the wind you reap the storm. Arming untrained citizens with handguns is, with all due respect, the most idiotic thing one can come up with. For starters, the average handgun weighs about 2 pounds. In order for you to actually have a chance to grab your gun if an assaillant comes through the door it should be readily accessible in a hip-, thigh- or shoulderholster and not put away in a backpack or purse. That's uncomfortable, tiring and definetely out of fashion when going to a dance. You need to train (regularly) and also need the necessary courage to not only pull your gun in the face of danger but also use it and end somebody's life.
Not everyone is as mentally stable as you, the reader (

). power corrupts and wielding a gun *is* power. On the plus side...any campus in the US would be a very polite place, with zero (bad) gossip and full of (fake) good vibrations.

In conclusion: With a murder rate as high as in the US, why give people even more means to kill each other?

(in reply to PenetratingGaze)

RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/29/2007 8:28:20 PM

PenetratingGaze

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Who said anything about untrained? I'm a firm believer that the true meaning of gun control means hitting your target. That takes practice, practice, practice. True, our murder rate is too high, some societies that have more guns, have more crime, some less. And vice versa. America is hurting though, I fear that we have lost our soul. We no longer teach our children that to serve others is right, even when that service requires great sacrifice, even great courage. People from the religous right to the secular left to certain groups of neo-pagans see this. They usually have different answers to the questions, but they do agree that we as a nation have lost our way.
Thus, violence runs wild and so do people. Guns are a tool, they can be used to defend and protect their wielders and innocents, or they can be used in a corrupt, even evil, manner.
End the violence, give people something to believe in, an ethos & morality they can follow. Yours might be different than mine, but if we both have one, than we and those around us are much better off than Cho and those that were around him.

(in reply to kentaro1980)

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