RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (Full Version)

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Sicarius -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 4:18:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kentaro1980
That is correct. The problems are too deeply rooted and i don't want to offend anyone by pointing out what i think are some of the issues, and i am not under the illusion of having a fastworking cure for that problem, let alone know exactly and without a doubt what the problems are to begin with.

Well, the initial post was in regards of the proposal of arming 25,000 untrained and uneducated people and then claiming that a tragedy of that magnitude would have been avoided. But to clarify more generally...No, i do not think disarming the US civilians is going to solve anything but gun related accidents and maybe the stray kill in hotblood. Some might argue that this in itself is already enough...I disagree.
Coupled with other reforms and showing the citizens that guns aren't needed...yes..in the long run...disarming is a solution. However, i say again:
I do not grasp the problem fully, and thus, i am unable to come to a conclusion. In a way it's a viscious circle.


Fair enough.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kentaro1980
I am not underselling Germany's military. I have experienced that training first hand as drafted and put it to good use in the months following bootcamp. However, you can't hold a territory with Special Forces. Special Forces of any kind are designed to soften targets(destroying key personnel or elements of the defense like a radar station) and/or prepare a beachhead for regular troops to come in, who then capture and hold the territory on behalf of the UN or the NATO or whoever.


I absolutely agree.  Mind you, I'm not making the point that there is no valid reason to have a standing army in the modern world, though.  I do believe that SF operations are more effective means of dealing with terrorism, however.  I also believe that your earlier assessment that terrorism is probably the greatest "real" threat facing the western world was accurate.  If Iraq has taught us anything, it should be that occupying a nation in this "new" scheme of war may actually not be such a good idea.

-Sicarius




Real0ne -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 4:19:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


Yes and as i have said the system needs to be looked at but the attitude here is 'arm everyone and everything will be ok'.


More like, "If *I* am armed, *I* know that *I* can take care of *MYSELF*.




exactly.  the point is that people will have guns or other weapons and when you have one you at least stand a fighting chance.  Its her option not carry if she does not want to, but then maybe next time she will not be so lucky as she was when she was assaulted and won.




missturbation -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 4:20:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

the problem you have of course is that people are going ot have them legally or illegally, so whats the difference?  i do not draw the distinction there.


*smiles*
The problem is that the main attitude here has been 'hes got a gun so ive got one'. Surely instead of this attitude you / we should be working towards a system that does work or works better!! I would have no problem with people legally owning guns if the system in place to ensure they were responsible enough worked - but it doesn't.
 
 




missturbation -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 4:21:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


Yes and as i have said the system needs to be looked at but the attitude here is 'arm everyone and everything will be ok'.


More like, "If *I* am armed, *I* know that *I* can take care of *MYSELF*.




exactly.  the point is that people will have guns or other weapons and when you have one you at least stand a fighting chance.  Its her option not carry if she does not want to, but then maybe next time she will not be so lucky as she was when she was assaulted and won.



I never said i won in my assault - i was raped. However i certainly would not choose to go back to the time and blow his brains out with a gun.




Real0ne -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 4:22:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sicarius
I absolutely agree.  Mind you, I'm not making the point that there is no valid reason to have a standing army in the modern world, though.  I do believe that SF operations are more effective means of dealing with terrorism, however.  I also believe that your earlier assessment that terrorism is probably the greatest "real" threat facing the western world was accurate.  If Iraq has taught us anything, it should be that occupying a nation in this "new" scheme of war may actually not be such a good idea.

-Sicarius


terrorism is totally muisunderstood/   How would you like it if the un parked it ass on your country and supported those who oppress you?  At soem point you wold grow to hate them, and when the intrusion becomes unbearable you will try to extricate them.   this terrorism is caused by us for petes sake.  both directly and indirectly.  might want to do a little serious research on the exploitations of the us sometime.  would be a good education.




Real0ne -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 4:25:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

the problem you have of course is that people are going ot have them legally or illegally, so whats the difference?  i do not draw the distinction there.


*smiles*
The problem is that the main attitude here has been 'hes got a gun so ive got one'. Surely instead of this attitude you / we should be working towards a system that does work or works better!! I would have no problem with people legally owning guns if the system in place to ensure they were responsible enough worked - but it doesn't.
 
 


well lady e made an excellent point. it is both impossible and impractical to do.   do you have any idea what kind of tax burden that would be on you?  Are you willing to pay that price?




Sicarius -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 4:25:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
terrorism is totally muisunderstood/   How would you like it if the un parked it ass on your country and supported those who oppress you?  At soem point you wold grow to hate them, and when the intrusion becomes unbearable you will try to extricate them.   this terrorism is caused by us for petes sake.  both directly and indirectly.  might want to do a little serious research on the exploitations of the us sometime.  would be a good education.


What in the hell are you talking about?  When did I for an instant take any sort of a "moral" side in the discussion of terrorism?  I commented that the greatest "real" threat facing the western world was on account of terrorism.  I made absolutely no assertions as to "why" that was ... whether it was our fault or not.  Christ, bro ... chill a little.

-Sicarius




Real0ne -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 4:26:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


Yes and as i have said the system needs to be looked at but the attitude here is 'arm everyone and everything will be ok'.


More like, "If *I* am armed, *I* know that *I* can take care of *MYSELF*.




exactly.  the point is that people will have guns or other weapons and when you have one you at least stand a fighting chance.  Its her option not carry if she does not want to, but then maybe next time she will not be so lucky as she was when she was assaulted and won.



I never said i won in my assault - i was raped. However i certainly would not choose to go back to the time and blow his brains out with a gun.


miss... you are happily at your keyboard today, trust me you won.   you could have been jewish in ww2, i bet you would have prayed for a gun.




missturbation -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 4:30:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

the problem you have of course is that people are going ot have them legally or illegally, so whats the difference?  i do not draw the distinction there.


*smiles*
The problem is that the main attitude here has been 'hes got a gun so ive got one'. Surely instead of this attitude you / we should be working towards a system that does work or works better!! I would have no problem with people legally owning guns if the system in place to ensure they were responsible enough worked - but it doesn't.
 
 


well lady e made an excellent point. it is both impossible and impractical to do.   do you have any idea what kind of tax burden that would be on you?  Are you willing to pay that price?



Well considering we are talking about the usa it wouldnt be my dollar, im in the uk remember, but yes theoretically i would be willing to pay extra to back a gun system that worked.




LadyEllen -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 4:33:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

the problem you have of course is that people are going ot have them legally or illegally, so whats the difference?  i do not draw the distinction there.


*smiles*
The problem is that the main attitude here has been 'hes got a gun so ive got one'. Surely instead of this attitude you / we should be working towards a system that does work or works better!! I would have no problem with people legally owning guns if the system in place to ensure they were responsible enough worked - but it doesn't.
 
 


well lady e made an excellent point. it is both impossible and impractical to do.   do you have any idea what kind of tax burden that would be on you?  Are you willing to pay that price?



Thanks RO, though to be fair I would deem it impossible and impractical only in the absence of a change in attitude on the part of gun owners with regard to the necessary intrusion into their private life.

As for the tax burden, that doesnt mean a lot to me I'm afraid, when the aim would be to prevent murder and/or mass murder by those who for no fault of their own in most cases, go off the rails. The tax burden would be worth it - albeit that perhaps gun owners should cover the cost or at least contribute substantially.

E




missturbation -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 4:39:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


Yes and as i have said the system needs to be looked at but the attitude here is 'arm everyone and everything will be ok'.


More like, "If *I* am armed, *I* know that *I* can take care of *MYSELF*.




exactly.  the point is that people will have guns or other weapons and when you have one you at least stand a fighting chance.  Its her option not carry if she does not want to, but then maybe next time she will not be so lucky as she was when she was assaulted and won.



I never said i won in my assault - i was raped. However i certainly would not choose to go back to the time and blow his brains out with a gun.


miss... you are happily at your keyboard today, trust me you won.   you could have been jewish in ww2, i bet you would have prayed for a gun.



I didn't win, im pretty sure the scars of what happened will stay with me pretty much forever. As for being a jew and praying for a gun - i dont hink so.




Real0ne -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 4:41:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

the problem you have of course is that people are going ot have them legally or illegally, so whats the difference?  i do not draw the distinction there.


*smiles*
The problem is that the main attitude here has been 'hes got a gun so ive got one'. Surely instead of this attitude you / we should be working towards a system that does work or works better!! I would have no problem with people legally owning guns if the system in place to ensure they were responsible enough worked - but it doesn't.
 
 


well lady e made an excellent point. it is both impossible and impractical to do.   do you have any idea what kind of tax burden that would be on you?  Are you willing to pay that price?



Thanks RO, though to be fair I would deem it impossible and impractical only in the absence of a change in attitude on the part of gun owners with regard to the necessary intrusion into their private life.

As for the tax burden, that doesnt mean a lot to me I'm afraid, when the aim would be to prevent murder and/or mass murder by those who for no fault of their own in most cases, go off the rails. The tax burden would be worth it - albeit that perhaps gun owners should cover the cost or at least contribute substantially.

E


then again you get back into your own statement of how do you police it?  that would take a huge gov undertaking of psychologists ect ect.   The way we have it here, go out and buy one, done deal.

If you want gov to protect and monito you will pay for it over and over and over again and still when it is all said and done there will be those who will always slip under the radar and in the end you still live in fear imo.




Real0ne -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 4:44:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


Yes and as i have said the system needs to be looked at but the attitude here is 'arm everyone and everything will be ok'.


More like, "If *I* am armed, *I* know that *I* can take care of *MYSELF*.




exactly.  the point is that people will have guns or other weapons and when you have one you at least stand a fighting chance.  Its her option not carry if she does not want to, but then maybe next time she will not be so lucky as she was when she was assaulted and won.



I never said i won in my assault - i was raped. However i certainly would not choose to go back to the time and blow his brains out with a gun.


miss... you are happily at your keyboard today, trust me you won.   you could have been jewish in ww2, i bet you would have prayed for a gun.



I didn't win, im pretty sure the scars of what happened will stay with me pretty much forever. As for being a jew and praying for a gun - i dont hink so.


Sort of makes it tough to argue  valid points when a person would rather die than kill the agressor.




LadyEllen -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 4:48:21 PM)

RO - its a given that one can only control the law abiding, and that the criminal require different measures.

I dont feel it would require any enormous government apparatus to provide the ongoing suitability assessments I propose. A simple phonecall (or however she did it) from my doctor to the police, and my weapon was removed.

All it would require is that gun owners attend an appointment say once a month to be evaluated. Given the cost of this in the US and the overall aim of controlling for those going off the rails and killing someone, it would be fitting for the cost to be provided by the state perhaps.

The key change required is in the attitudes of law abiding gun owners to submit to such evaluation and the intrusion to their private life on an ongoing basis. That is the biggest hurdle I believe, when the constitution gives a right to bear arms and prevents the state from meddling with personal affairs.

E




PenetratingGaze -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 4:50:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


Yes and as i have said the system needs to be looked at but the attitude here is 'arm everyone and everything will be ok'.


More like, "If *I* am armed, *I* know that *I* can take care of *MYSELF*.




exactly.  the point is that people will have guns or other weapons and when you have one you at least stand a fighting chance.  Its her option not carry if she does not want to, but then maybe next time she will not be so lucky as she was when she was assaulted and won.



I never said i won in my assault - i was raped. However i certainly would not choose to go back to the time and blow his brains out with a gun.


miss... you are happily at your keyboard today, trust me you won.   you could have been jewish in ww2, i bet you would have prayed for a gun.



I didn't win, im pretty sure the scars of what happened will stay with me pretty much forever. As for being a jew and praying for a gun - i dont hink so.


Sort of makes it tough to argue  valid points when a person would rather die than kill the agressor.




Victim waiting to be victimized - again, Body language usually conveys this type of attitude. I hope she realizes this and acts in a confident yet calmly alert manner when walking down the street. She'll at least not mark herself then with a big virtual neon "ASSAULT ME NOW" sign.




LadyEllen -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 4:53:41 PM)

Guys. Unless you have been raped or sexually assaulted (as I was a couple of weeks back), and you know the full details and you are sure of not raking up the memory of it, I think you'd do better to leave off now.

It just aint that simple in most cases.

E




missturbation -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 5:03:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PenetratingGaze

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


Yes and as i have said the system needs to be looked at but the attitude here is 'arm everyone and everything will be ok'.


More like, "If *I* am armed, *I* know that *I* can take care of *MYSELF*.




exactly.  the point is that people will have guns or other weapons and when you have one you at least stand a fighting chance.  Its her option not carry if she does not want to, but then maybe next time she will not be so lucky as she was when she was assaulted and won.



I never said i won in my assault - i was raped. However i certainly would not choose to go back to the time and blow his brains out with a gun.


miss... you are happily at your keyboard today, trust me you won.   you could have been jewish in ww2, i bet you would have prayed for a gun.



I didn't win, im pretty sure the scars of what happened will stay with me pretty much forever. As for being a jew and praying for a gun - i dont hink so.


Sort of makes it tough to argue  valid points when a person would rather die than kill the agressor.




Victim waiting to be victimized - again, Body language usually conveys this type of attitude. I hope she realizes this and acts in a confident yet calmly alert manner when walking down the street. She'll at least not mark herself then with a big virtual neon "ASSAULT ME NOW" sign.


Excuse me?????????????? who do you think you are to judge what i am or what im not? That is extremely rude, arrogant and disrespectful




Crush -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 5:09:21 PM)

As one who does carry a weapon often, I think there are a couple interesting facts that get lost in the argument.  Fortunately, those facts are available at http://www.gunowners.org/fs0404.htm  

Yeah, gunowners.org, but the stats they cite are definitely NOT from gun nuts.  They completely cite their information, from FBI statistics, university studies and the like.

People who carry concealed weapons, at least those in Florida, have to go through a background check, take a class and exhibit some level of proficiency with a handgun.  Other states are even more rigorous.

Frankly, those people concealed weapons are those least likely to use them except in extreme situations.  They KNOW what the consequences are if they misuse their weapon.  They have cleared the state-mandated background check...NOTE that this is NOT the same background check for purchasing a weapon as Cho did. 

What is interesting to note is that while you can't legally carry at a school, you can carry in a bank.  At a mall. The movies. Even the public library.  All sorts of places that people go every day.

Why choose a school to shoot people?  One obvious reason:  No one can stop you easily, since everyone is prohibited from being able to defend themselves unless they are actually touching you.  No tear gas.  No knife.  Sure, a stunner, but that means you have to hold it there for a few seconds, right next to the bad guy, to be effective.  Just a quick ZAP ticks them off.

Laws are followed by law-abiding people.  They aren't by those that break them. 
It is time to actually trust people.  After all, isn't what we do here?  As a masochistic bottom, I trust my sadistic top.    As a sub, you expect to trust your Dom/me.

We do this every day...we trust bank tellers and wait personnel with our financial information.  We trust doctors, nurses, teachers, and a whole bunch of other folks every day.

We trust the police too, but you can't keep a SWAT team following you every moment of the day.  You have to take care of yourself....a cell phone isn't a weapon. 

I have had a gun in my face, been robbed and pistol-whipped.  To this day I carry both the memories of that day and the damage to my jaw. I was fortunate enough to survive it because a car came by at the right moment and the bad guy ran off.  Would my having a weapon helped?  I don't know, but I would have liked the option.  If nothing else, I would have been much more aware of my surroundings, carried myself differently and may never have been mugged.

Don't carry if you don't want to...that is OK.  But don't seek to control those who want to carry something to protect themselves and others.   Let's make the bad guys keep guessing who might make their day and those who won't.







Real0ne -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 5:10:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

RO - its a given that one can only control the law abiding, and that the criminal require different measures.

I dont feel it would require any enormous government apparatus to provide the ongoing suitability assessments I propose. A simple phonecall (or however she did it) from my doctor to the police, and my weapon was removed.

All it would require is that gun owners attend an appointment say once a month to be evaluated. Given the cost of this in the US and the overall aim of controlling for those going off the rails and killing someone, it would be fitting for the cost to be provided by the state perhaps.

The key change required is in the attitudes of law abiding gun owners to submit to such evaluation and the intrusion to their private life on an ongoing basis. That is the biggest hurdle I believe, when the constitution gives a right to bear arms and prevents the state from meddling with personal affairs.

E


yeh but unfortunately that is a police state sort of attitude which rubs me raw frankly.  That and it never ends where you think it ends and always goes farhter and the gov just keeps getting deepr and deeper into ones panties.   part of this is controlling that gov creeping.  that and people get smart to it and change their style, there is virtually no law that cvannont be violated and gotten away with.  look at 7/7 for instance.




missturbation -> RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? (4/30/2007 5:14:17 PM)

People who carry concealed weapons, at least those in Florida, have to go through a background check, take a class and exhibit some level of proficiency with a handgun.  Other states are even more rigorous.
Have you read the statistics i quoted earlier where over half the offenders were legal gun owners. courses and checks are not infallible.
 
Frankly, those people concealed weapons are those least likely to use them except in extreme situations.
Wrong a lot of the gun owners who were legal used them because of an argument.
 
Let's make the bad guys keep guessing who might make their day and those who won't.
Some of the bad guys are those with legal guns.
 
Laws are followed by law-abiding people.  They aren't by those that break them. 
It is time to actually trust people.  After all, isn't what we do here?  As a masochistic bottom, I trust my sadistic top.    As a sub, you expect to trust your Dom/me.
Wrong the statistics show half of legal owners cannot be trusted.




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