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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 4/30/2007 6:31:38 PM   
sweetnurseBBW


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She sounds like someone that has been told that nothing she has done right in the past is right. Which is often the way people who have experienced abuse feel. This is not a excuse to not contribute. She needs a schedule, tasks etc. It takes a long time to rebuild up self esteem. She needs guidance and patience from your Master and you. Self esteem is hard to recover once it has been taken away. Be patient or seek professional help for her.

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 4/30/2007 7:33:56 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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Agreeing with sweetnurse here.  When I became my Master's I was scared, had no self esteem, was skittish as hell and had no confidence.  No clue why he took a chance on me, but he did.  My need to please had me always worried that I wasn't pleasing, because that's what I had always been told. 

This kind of stuff takes time to adjust to.  Small challenges that she can succeed at will begin to build a sense of acheivement and confidence. This doesn't mean treating her like a delicate flower, but it does mean allowing for a little more wiggle room than normal.  In addition to the baggage cart she is carrying around, she is in a new home, trying to create two new relationships - and one of them is with a slave who is resentful of her.  Can't be easy by any means.

I don't know how long she has been in your home, but it took me about 6 months to stop being afraid of my own shadow.  If you have issues with her or the way your Master is managing her, talk to your Master about it, but try not to add to her already smashed esteem.

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 4/30/2007 7:59:37 PM   
slaveish


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Sit down, the three of you, and get to the root of this. She says she has a difficult time with past abuse and she sasks each of your separately Is X mad at me?" If you hear her ask that, take her by the hand and lead her to wherever your Master is and say "Beta wants to know if you are mad at her and why." The same goes for when she goes to Master to ask if you are mad at her. Force her to take responsibility for her own questions and actions.

It seems the answer she is looking for is "no". If she is asking the question then, to her, it feels as though she has done something wrong. Hearing "Yes, I am mad at you because of this-or-that reason" or "No I am not mad at you so stop wasting this sort of time and make yourself useful" would be more productive.

And speaking of productivity, her questioning of people's motives (are you mad at me) is a very passive-aggressive approach to being productive. Tell her to do a thing and if it's not right, learn from it. I detest passive-aggression with a passion as it leads to nowhere but to feeding this negative behavior. I wish you luck with this situation. It is up to her to realized this is not her previously relationship and she must make adjustments accordingly in order to keep her place and to keep her Master from having to deal with what are, essentially, non-issues.

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 4/30/2007 8:02:39 PM   
kittensmailbox


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sounds like she needs needs a Master of her own where she can get all the attention she needs... more like a one on one thing.... just my thoughts....

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/1/2007 1:11:10 AM   
MaamJay


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I am really amazed that your Master would just move her in straight from another relationship, especially one that was unhealthy. I wouldn't. She'd be in a place of her own, nearby maybe, seeing U/us often, getting to know U/us, observing how the D/s works between U/us, maybe dabbling in D/s and play in a gentle and progressive manner, but most importantly, getting the help she needs to heal herself. Not until she is FAR more capable of giving informed consent to D/s by having got her own act together and being able to live independently, would she be invited into My house. This is no way to start experiencing the joys of D/s when she is so screwed up. I still wouldn't recommend a one-to-one for her ... but a poly situation is even more difficult. I don't blame you for feeling overwhelmed and pissed off, she is way too much work in the emotional sense. And that work definitely should not fall on you, if Master wants this, then He has to be responsible for handling it. And by doing that, He risks ignoring you and sacrificing all the good work you and He have done over the past year. He needs to take a step back and assess the impact of His likely "good intentions" on EVERYONE involved. From your own words, I agree that He sounds like a "White Knight" in that He has honourable intentions of helping her. But the way He is going about it isn't actually likely to achieve His good aims. she is likely simply to switch dependencies ... and that isn't healthy. you have had some good suggestions on how to deal with it and how to start to reprogram her conditioned responses, but I tend to feel these strategies shouldn't be tried within the context of all living together. Baby steps, that's what's needed!

Good luck!
Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/1/2007 5:42:32 AM   
TheDiva


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Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL
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That's a difficult situation. I agree that there needs to be some kind of counseling for her. Formal or informal; whatever will work for all of you. I also think that it's easy to feel resentful in this situation.

Another poster suggested that you stop relaying messages. I think that's a good idea. You shouldn't feel obligated to be her mouthpiece, and it seems like taking on the task will result in you resenting her [more]. When you feel in a particularly upbeat/energetic mood and you have time, start thinking about some ways you can move her towards being more independent. Other suggestions have been made, such as supervising her only until you're reasonably sure she understands how a certain task can be completed or giving her something to do in the same room with you while you're occupied with a chore.

I find it frustrating to take 20 minutes showing someone how to do something when I have other things to do and I know I could do it myself in 5. But think of her as a child in some ways. She'll need to accomplish things on her own so that she can build up her self-esteem, and this is how she will learn.

She can do the bathroom on her own, so she can probably transfer that skill set to cleaning the kitchen pretty easily. Give her positive feedback that specifically relates to what she did: "OK, you put all the mugs on the hook and wiped down the counters. Good job. Now spell out "submissive" on the refrigerator with the alphabet magnets; that's the last thing on the list and after that we'll be done in here." Oh, and try ignoring her when she does something to get on your nerves instead of getting annoyed with her. You'll avoid giving her negative attention and stop yourself from inadvertently saying something that would hurt her feelings. An absent-minded "Frieda, I don't have time for that right now" instead of looking blankly through her would probably work.

Good luck. It's gonna be interesting. BTW, LuckyAlbatross mentioned something about a freeloading roommate? If your Master has a pattern of trying to help needy people while some or most of the responsibility falls on you, you'll need to address this in some way...whether it's becoming more skillful at interacting with those people, bringing up the topic to your Dom, or whatever might be the best option for you.

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/1/2007 9:42:17 AM   
Trampler


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Mr. Discipline, yes there are some people who make up stories of abuse to get attention, but considering that it does happen quite a bit, It seems like a safe assumption that this was abused.  Tell ya what, why don't you call up your local friendly social service agency, public or private and ask just how common it is.  Also (not to make excuses for those who abuse.) there are many reasons why abuse occurs, loss of job, loss of a family member, abusers having been abused themselves, etc. And considering we may be going into a recession, I'd be willing to bet that abuse cases will grow. (the last bit was to everyone, for information.)  And also Mr. Discipline, your response was quite rude. No need for that

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/1/2007 9:55:12 AM   
Shylahgirl


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Joined: 8/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittensmailbox

sounds like she needs needs a Master of her own where she can get all the attention she needs... more like a one on one thing.... just my thoughts....


The way Master runs his house hold and his girls acctually makes it better if you are the number two girl then if you are an only girl.

When I was the only girl I did have alot of one on one time with Master.

For her, she has two people to give her attention and all that good stuff... the ideal way it should work is that more of her needs get met, if not by Master then by me, and the same will happen for everyone else... if I can't meet a need of Masters because I have to much going on, she will most likely be able to do what I can't.

As Master and I see it a poly D/s relationship should idealy provide more suport and attention for each member then a one on one D/s relationship.

I try to be as suportive and understanding as I can. But it's difficult for me because I haven't lived the same experinces that she has, hence leading to resentment when I see or hear her say something that I think shouldn't even be a problem.

I was in an abusive relationship for a grand total of a week after the bastard came close to hitting me I left two days later.

So, as you can guess it's a little difficult for me to meet her need for understanding, with me not having lived like she has or even close to it.

That's why I posted this thread, I'm attempting to understand so that everyone can get their needs met and be happy.

So far the majority of responces have been helpful and I thank everyone.

Shylah



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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/1/2007 10:06:01 AM   
Shylahgirl


Posts: 167
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

I am really amazed that your Master would just move her in straight from another relationship, especially one that was unhealthy. I wouldn't. She'd be in a place of her own, nearby maybe, seeing U/us often, getting to know U/us, observing how the D/s works between U/us, maybe dabbling in D/s and play in a gentle and progressive manner, but most importantly, getting the help she needs to heal herself. Not until she is FAR more capable of giving informed consent to D/s by having got her own act together and being able to live independently, would she be invited into My house. This is no way to start experiencing the joys of D/s when she is so screwed up. I still wouldn't recommend a one-to-one for her ... but a poly situation is even more difficult. I don't blame you for feeling overwhelmed and pissed off, she is way too much work in the emotional sense. And that work definitely should not fall on you, if Master wants this, then He has to be responsible for handling it. And by doing that, He risks ignoring you and sacrificing all the good work you and He have done over the past year. He needs to take a step back and assess the impact of His likely "good intentions" on EVERYONE involved. From your own words, I agree that He sounds like a "White Knight" in that He has honourable intentions of helping her. But the way He is going about it isn't actually likely to achieve His good aims. she is likely simply to switch dependencies ... and that isn't healthy. you have had some good suggestions on how to deal with it and how to start to reprogram her conditioned responses, but I tend to feel these strategies shouldn't be tried within the context of all living together. Baby steps, that's what's needed!

Good luck!
Maam Jay aka violet[A]


She left everything and no one had the money to put her up in a place of her own.

For the first three days she was wearing my clothes because she was affraid of what would happen if she went back to get her stuff and the ex was there.

Eventually we went back during a time we knew he'd be at work and gathard the stuff she knew she'd need like clothes and her credit cards.

She wasn't Masters girl right when she moved in... He gave her time to ajust and see if this is what she really wanted... it was over a week before he clamed her as his in any way.

As far as Master reassesing the situation, it's a little late for that. He mad a comitment to her, the same one he made to me when I was new. Just because something gets a little difficult doesn't mean he'll give up on either of us. I'd be long gone if he hadn't made that comitment to me. I don't expect or want him to tell her, "O, you're to broken for me right now. Go away untill your all better." If he said something like that to her, what would that mean for me if I have a hard scene and end up needing two or three weeks of aftercare? Cuz that basicly that we're doing with her, aftercare for two years of abuse.

Shylah



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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/1/2007 10:12:39 AM   
BBBTBW


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Joined: 5/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trampler

Mr. Discipline, yes there are some people who make up stories of abuse to get attention, but considering that it does happen quite a bit, It seems like a safe assumption that this was abused.  Tell ya what, why don't you call up your local friendly social service agency, public or private and ask just how common it is.  Also (not to make excuses for those who abuse.) there are many reasons why abuse occurs, loss of job, loss of a family member, abusers having been abused themselves, etc. And considering we may be going into a recession, I'd be willing to bet that abuse cases will grow. (the last bit was to everyone, for information.)  And also Mr. Discipline, your response was quite rude. No need for that


Usually I don't agree with Mr. Discipliner...but this time I thought he was on target asking if this woman had actually been abused.  The OP didn't state that there were any physical signs of abuse until he asked all she did was complain about the way the second sub was acting.  She then jumped down his throat about asking a question that brought out information that may be pertinent to other's responses.  In defense of himself I think responded appropriately.

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"You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means" -- Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/1/2007 10:48:13 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shylahgirl
He gave her time to ajust and see if this is what she really wanted... it was over a week before he clamed her as his in any way.

A week to adjust from leaving an abusive relationship, having no means to support herself and being offered a "safe place" and some hot kinky sex? 

Like I said before- you guys skipped all those important beginning steps, now you have to make them up.  And it will be harder because they were skipped.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/1/2007 11:47:22 AM   
DommeChains


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You write that she was given a week to adjust and see if this is what she wanted.  That does not seem like a lot of time to overcome the conditioning of 2 years of an unhealthy relationship.  I am not too sure she was in a place mentally or emotionally to feel free to say no. 

Not implying she was coerced or forced but, it does seem to be very likely she felt she had no viable alternative since she left without money or possessions.  Even after she got her things back she might feel obligated to stay and "make the best of it and give it a go" without truly realizing what she was getting into.  Like LA said you guys skipped a big bunch of very very important steps and now you have situation which might not lend itself to a neat, consensual solution.

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/1/2007 12:07:48 PM   
spankmepink11


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Shylah, you say that she is "lucky to have attention from you both"  yet you seem resentful of giving that attention/guidance. I agree  with the posters who feel that going  directly from one relationship into another is not a good choice, but the choice was made, so you all will have to work it out...or make arrangements to help her remove her self from your household.

Being the "clean freak" that i am, i have to ask.....if you stay home and take care of the house....why is the Masters room a mess?  Considering her lack of knowledge about the both of you, i would be afraid to organize someones space unless they laid out specifically...what was to be thrown away...and where things belonged etc....

Good luck...and try to put yourself in her shoes....sometimes that helps.

< Message edited by spankmepink11 -- 5/1/2007 12:08:55 PM >

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/1/2007 12:09:55 PM   
slaveish


Posts: 1086
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Shyla, as the alpha, you set the example. Keep her from playing her little "are you mad at me / I can't do anything right" game with Master. You are the one who is responsible for teaching her etiquette for the household as well as explaining / showing her how things are done in the house.

The girl desperately needs therapy, but therapy won't cure anything if she doesn't have an additional life or support system to back it up. You can start her therapy in a layman's way by playing teacher to her student, with Master taking the role as headmaster. It's an uphill battle for everyone. Give her positive reinforcement when she does what she is supposed to, gold stars and prizes when she goes a day without stressing about "Is he / she mad at me", and maybe you'll wind up with a prize-winning beta.

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/1/2007 1:34:50 PM   
OsideGirl


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Honestly, your Master should realize that she's in no position to be in a relationship right now. She needs time to heal and figure out who she is, now is not the time to embark on a band-aid relationship.

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Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/1/2007 4:28:13 PM   
blackwinterbyrd


Posts: 112
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boundaries.  boundaries boundaries.  Don't be the middleman if you don't want to.  Don't be her goto on every little thing if you don't want to.  Tell her when you are irritated and tell her what to do when you are.  Let her know that irritation does not mean violence or hate, show her that too.

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/1/2007 6:45:49 PM   
gothicdiva


Posts: 111
Joined: 2/16/2005
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It certainly sounds like the girl came from an abusive relationship based on her current behavior. She's questioning every move she makes and whether she's doing things right or her Master is mad at her. It's probably because in her last relationship she "never did anything right." Most likely she was treated as a "doormat" and made to feel "worthless or inferior." Besides that, her self-esteem has hit "rock bottom." I agree that the LAST THING she needs is a D/s relationship and to become someone's submissive/slave. She couldn't possibly even know what she wants or needs at this point. People are always geting into the lifestyle for the "wrong reasons"...perhaps because something is lacking in their life or they are "in search" of something. It sounds to me that her naivete' and weaknesses are possibly being "preyed upon." She definitely needs some time on her OWN to sort things out as well as some counseling. If you and Master truly cares for her, you will be supportive of her and encourage her to seek PROFESSIONAL help.

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/1/2007 7:23:40 PM   
petal7


Posts: 28
Status: offline
That does sound like a very frustrating situation and I wish you the strength to deal with it.

It sounds like there is a lot of going back and forth -- you to her, her to your Master, you to your Master, etc.  Would it be feasible for the three of you to sit down and talk about what's happening?  Make a plan for who is responsible for what chores (if you're happy with the way it is presently, that's fine -- it doesn't have to change, but saying it out in the open is a good way for everyone to be clear).

This would also be a good time for girl 2 to learn how things are communicated in your household.  What DOES it look like when your Master is disappointed or mad?  What does it look like when you are?  What does she need to be reassured?

Again, I hope it works out for the best, whatever that resolution is.

(in reply to Shylahgirl)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/1/2007 8:45:21 PM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
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From: Texas
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Greetings..~smiles~

Alot of good suggestions have been made. Whatever the case..you and your Master are in for alot of uphill work that may just require more than either of you can or are prepared to handle.

I strongly agree that bringing her into a beta situation is not the best course for anyone at this point. If you both truely wish to help her with laymans support then I would suggest a sitdown, and remove the attempts to have her there as a beta for now, and just offer her a safe place to be. Your Master can just give her general household guidelines for help there, but to stay there..she must seek outside professional help, and start progressing to just find herself and her own footing.

If she accomplishes this..then maybe offer this way of life to her but at the very minimum..it shouldn't be done when the woman doesn't even know what way is up or down.

Whatever you all decide..I hope it works out for the best.

Well Wishes
starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to Shylahgirl)
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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/1/2007 8:55:30 PM   
myobedience


Posts: 472
Joined: 1/28/2007
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Ya'll need a sit down conference time to air all this BS out !! 

Is seems simple to me. 

_____________________________

With grace and gratitude, I am owned.
A Man who always seeks to be the best He can be for you is the only Man truly worthy of being called Master.

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 40
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