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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/19/2007 9:49:19 AM   
Shylahgirl


Posts: 167
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

She left everything and no one had the money to put her up in a place of her own.

For the first three days she was wearing my clothes because she was affraid of what would happen if she went back to get her stuff and the ex was there.

Eventually we went back during a time we knew he'd be at work and gathard the stuff she knew she'd need like clothes and her credit cards.

She wasn't Masters girl right when she moved in... He gave her time to ajust and see if this is what she really wanted... it was over a week before he clamed her as his in any way.

As far as Master reassesing the situation, it's a little late for that. He mad a comitment to her, the same one he made to me when I was new. Just because something gets a little difficult doesn't mean he'll give up on either of us. I'd be long gone if he hadn't made that comitment to me. I don't expect or want him to tell her, "O, you're to broken for me right now. Go away untill your all better." If he said something like that to her, what would that mean for me if I have a hard scene and end up needing two or three weeks of aftercare? Cuz that basicly that we're doing with her, aftercare for two years of abuse.

Shylah



OK, so there was no money to put her up somewhere on her own. What about a women's refuge? They are designed to deal with victims of abuse. And how is there money to keep her in your place since she apparently doesn't have a job or money coming in? I can understand the urge to take her in for a short while, but then she should be redirected to the help she needs and that is available to her. I am not saying you/Master should abandon her ... just that she is in no state to accept any relationship, let alone a poly D/s one. There would be nothing wrong in both of you befriending her, visiting her often, having her visit short term or overnight with you, gradually building it up. But I and several others here, feel that the way you have both gone about this is inappropriate. Putting concern for her aside temporarily, there is a real risk that what you and Master are doing could ultimately be seen as taking advantage of her vulnerability, and it could all backfire very badly somewhere down the track. Because even with the best intentions, what you are both doing could LOOK like abuse/preying on her/using her etc depending on how it was presented to authorities ... and do you both want a court case against you? She is in such a strange space right now that anything could change when she "comes to" ... and I have seen people in this sort of situation turn on those who tried to help. And even if she doesn't, perhaps she has some family or other friends who could get the wrong end of the stick and interfere, perhaps blaming you both for the state she is in. Without professional documentation of her state when she left the boyfriend, you haven't a leg to stand on in terms of proving whether you've helped or hindered.

Frankly I doubt your Master's soundness of judgement if He thought that a week was sufficient for her to adjust before "claiming her as His girl". I'd be thinking much more in terms of a year or more! I wouldn't claim anyone I knew for a week ... at very best, they'd be under My consideration for training! And even then, that would be moving faster than I ever have with someone. Master and i had known each other for 3 years and lived together 24/7 for 2 of those years before He collared me. And i wasn't in the emotional mess this girl is obviously in. As to what it would mean to you ... well surely, you and she are two separate people in two very different situations and states of mind. Are you seriously saying your Master would treat you both the same?? He should be exercising His judgement independently concerning the two of you ... and what is the best for one (His aftercare) shouldn't necessarily apply to the other who seems to need so much more.

I'm now left concerned for both of you girls!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]


There is risk in everything.

Yes, she might turn around  when she "comes to" and do something unexpected, but so might the play date you beat on till they are black and blue. We just have to decide is it an exceptable risk for what we are getting out if it.

As for the week of waiting... Master waited that long to put a symbole of ownership on her. There are still things that Master has always done with me that he refuses to do with her.

She knows that if she wants to leave at any moment Master and I will help her pack her bags and give her a kiss good bye when we drop her off at her mom's. We are trying to do everything possable to make sure she doesn't feel like she has no other option. Even if she chooses not to be girl an d doesn't have anywhere to go she will not be kicked out... She will be renting the atic apartment if that happens.

Sinse I origiopnally posted this thread things have changed, she has a job, she's helping more around the house, she is comunicating with Master and I a little more on how she's feeling. Somethings still need to be worked on, such as her fear of the male sex... I'm sure you can agree that because of abuse it is logical that she has some sort of fear of men and intamicy with them. She is a straight girl who fears being intamate with me... that has to be confusing.

I am feeling much better about Master's choice to keep her.

What ever happens will happen... if in 3 months she's ready to go out on her own then she will... we do nothing to her that she doesn't request first, mainly because we don't know he well enoght to go, "Yea, she can take two needles in her chest" with out her requesting it first, usually she needs to request it several times and show that this is what she wants us to do.

The only play she does at the moment is puppy play, which is a very good choice for her (no marks and she has a chance to escape)

So, at this point I feel that things are ok. We are taking it one day at a time with her and she seems to be responding well to the positive envierment.

Shylah


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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/19/2007 9:54:33 AM   
NakedGirlScout


Posts: 370
Joined: 1/10/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		I've known of others who took in abused girls who were in grave danger, and I once entered into a situation like that myself when I had nowhere to go one day. So far I've never seen it really work out for everyone, even when the dominant of the household was a very experienced therapist for abused women. I suppose there are just too many issues going on all at the same time: healing from abuse, entering a power exchange relationship, and going into a poly situation... all at the same time. I think it's too overwhelming, but I don't know what to tell you for advice except to take it day by day and have as much patience as possible.

(in reply to Shylahgirl)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/19/2007 9:55:58 AM   
Shylahgirl


Posts: 167
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: theGuideGoddess

Collaring someone like this after a week seems impetuous to say the least. However if handled properly it could really be the life changing experience this girl needs.  You two are to be commended to step out on a limb and attempt to not only rescue a victim, but to change her into a survivor.  With love, acceptance and nurturing she could one day be a thriver….who knows. 

Good luck and best wishes…
The Guiding Goddess



She is NOT collared... I just want to make that clear to everyone. She waers a symbole of ownership not Masters collar. He has a minamum 6 month training period, maybe longer, before he will colar someone.

I am collared she is not.

Shylah


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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/19/2007 10:58:14 AM   
DommeChains


Posts: 415
Joined: 3/23/2006
Status: offline 		You have made your bed and now you and she must lie in it.  To me it appears you have it all nice and neatly justified.  From your perspective it may seem that you are giving her options and not forcing her into anything.  ",..the only play she does is puppy play....".  Although I think puppy play is great fun it can be viewed as demeaning and dehumanizing by some.  Maybe not the best choice for someone fresh out of an abusive situation who needs to build up their self esteem.

I have not seen you post anywhere on this thread that you and your Master sat this girl down and asked her point blank what she wants.  Not feed her a list of choices or suggested scenarios but asked the question then shut up and let her tell you.  In my opinion a dominant should always have the best interest of the sub/slave foremost in their minds.  That means that sometimes we don't indulge our needs if it will harm the sub/slave.  Sometimes that means we have to help the sub/slave be strong enough to stand on their own two feet and grow without us.

Just my $.02 cents worth.

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/19/2007 1:08:56 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shylahgirl
We are trying to do everything possable to make sure she doesn't feel like she has no other option.

I'm afraid wrangling her into a commitment doesn't fall into that sphere.  Call it whatever trendy term you want for it.

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/19/2007 3:38:21 PM   
Shylahgirl


Posts: 167
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DommeChains

You have made your bed and now you and she must lie in it.  To me it appears you have it all nice and neatly justified.  From your perspective it may seem that you are giving her options and not forcing her into anything.  ",..the only play she does is puppy play....".  Although I think puppy play is great fun it can be viewed as demeaning and dehumanizing by some.  Maybe not the best choice for someone fresh out of an abusive situation who needs to build up their self esteem.

I have not seen you post anywhere on this thread that you and your Master sat this girl down and asked her point blank what she wants.  Not feed her a list of choices or suggested scenarios but asked the question then shut up and let her tell you.  In my opinion a dominant should always have the best interest of the sub/slave foremost in their minds.  That means that sometimes we don't indulge our needs if it will harm the sub/slave.  Sometimes that means we have to help the sub/slave be strong enough to stand on their own two feet and grow without us.

Just my $.02 cents worth.


What makes you think that I have given all the details of our relationship in this thread.

Of course he sat her down and asked her what she wants, he still does every few weeks to a few days, depending on how her emotional state is at the time... we didn't snatch her off the street and tell her this is what you will do... she thought for over a month on it before she decided to leave the abusive boy friend.

And I don't want to see any posts saying "O, well a month isn't enought time to decide something like that"... Master told her when she agreed that she didn't know what she was getting into (he told me the same thing at first too, by the way) and she still said that this is what she wanted.

Sinse I orgionally posted this thread alot has changed in my way of thinking and hers.

I am not justifing anything... when I feel ataced or that someone is trying to bring up something that wasn't even part of the subject (i.e. saying that Master or I are not concitering her feelings or what she wants or what ever) I get defencive.

I felt very atacted by your post.

I think you should try and think of the details that have maybe not been mentioned before you go acusing me or my master of not having her best intrests at heart.

Don't asume you know everything just because you've read a thread on something that you are not involved in.

I started this thread for advise... not critisems of Master and I.

Shylah


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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/19/2007 6:02:13 PM   
DommeChains


Posts: 415
Joined: 3/23/2006
Status: offline 		And that is my advice.  You feel it is attacking you and that I am doing this on the basis of not knowing everything.  I can only advise based on what you put in the post.  If you are feeling attacked it may be because, whether you want to admit it or not, you feel that the best decisions may not have been made.  And you want me to assume that certain things have been done or considered.  I try to not assume anything since that tends to lead to wrong conclusions.

Humans are remarkably adaptive and can convince themselves that nearly any type of situation is tolerable or even what they really desired.  Anything to not be alone or unattached.  I do not see how I could have drawn any other conclusions than the ones I have based on what you have posted.  If that made you feel attacked I am sorry for hurting your feelings.  But you need to remember I am not the only person who has posted that this situation does not appear to be a healthy, fully informed, consensual agreement worked out over a long enough period of time for all the necessary questions to be answered and expectations discussed.  It still appears to me that your sister sub may not have felt she had other workable options and wanted desperately to please her saviors.....even at the price of her own best interests.

(in reply to Shylahgirl)
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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/19/2007 9:41:27 PM   
JackM1


Posts: 137
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline 		quick post: i find that the only people who feel attacked by posts such as these are the people who secretly know its true, but dont want to admit it. so they get mad, but even though its outward, and usually directed at the person who made the post, most of the time its internal anger that they dont want to admit is towards themselves.

what people are pointing out is what we find to be obvious after reading your posts. dont feel offended when people judge you and your Master, because you basically set yourself up for it. when asking advice pertaining to a situation, you are more or less asking for a judgement. dont feel "attacked" when people tell you something you DONT want to hear. you should know by now that noone on CM is going to coddle you and tell you that what you are doing is absalutely right and to stick with it. even if that is what you SHOULD do, there will always be some who tell you the opposite. also, by not including ALL of the details, you are basically allowing people to use thier imaginations with the situation. how are WE supposed to know everything that is going on, and give you accurate advice? we dont and cant read your mind; if you dont give us all of the details, we cant give you absalutely accurate answers(and even then, this is all opinion, which means you dont have to agree with anything we post)

i think based on the sheer volume of people telling you what amounts to the EXACT SAME advice, then you should probably consider it. everyone handles a situation differently, and its your right to simply ignore what we have told you, but remember; you asked.

< Message edited by JackM1 -- 5/19/2007 9:42:45 PM >

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/20/2007 2:47:13 AM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		Quoting Shylah's response to My earlier post:
 
There is risk in everything.

Yes, she might turn around  when she "comes to" and do something unexpected, but so might the play date you beat on till they are black and blue. We just have to decide is it an exceptable risk for what we are getting out if it.

As for the week of waiting... Master waited that long to put a symbole of ownership on her. There are still things that Master has always done with me that he refuses to do with her.

OK, for one thing, I do not "beat play dates black and blue". You complained about feeling attacked because people didn't know about the whole of your situation and simply addressed what you had revealed. Yet here you are making a wild assumption and accusation about Me ... and I am not the one asking for advice! IF you knew Me, IF you actually read My posts here on these boards, then you would know that I am not much into the sadistic side of D/s at all ... My giving of pain is entirely limited to the pleasure it gives the sub and the space it takes them to. I wouldn't beat a lifelong slave black and blue ... I'm mortified if I leave anything more than redness that fades within the hour!

Now as to the "acceptable risk for what we are getting out of it" ... that raises the fascinating question of what you think your Master and you ARE getting out of the situation. It would seem that this extra person is a burden, physically and emotionally ... so what are you getting out of it?

And I still find it hard to credit that anyone thinks a week is a long time. OK so it's "not a collar it's a symbol of ownership". Hmmmm I always thought a collar WAS a symbol of ownership. Whatever it is, it was simply too soon. Even after a whole month of talking to her till she decided to leave the abusive b/f ... that makes it a whole 5 weeks before she was "claimed". STILL too soon! She simply cannot be ready to know her own mind even if she has apparently said this is what she wants. And as JackM1 said, the reason you are getting so aggressive about all the advice YOU asked for is because deep down you know that there is at least a core of truth in what so many people have said here. I can't recall one poster that has said "Whoopee, yes what a great idea to take this girl in and make her a sub/slave so soon." Some have simply concentrated on possible coping strategies but most have said it was a bad idea at this time.

Sure you can ignore us all if you like ... but then why come here and ask for the advice in the first place?

Maam Jay

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/22/2007 1:59:02 PM   
onegoodgirl


Posts: 126
Joined: 5/6/2007
Status: offline 		It sounds like what she needs is constant responsibility (chores, tasks) for a while until her role is clearly established.

Excellent post Calandra - I couldn't agree more with your accessment.


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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/22/2007 3:05:42 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14373
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shylahgirl
she thought for over a month on it before she decided to leave the abusive boy friend.
So, you think that a month is enough time for someone actively in an abusive relationship to judge what to do for the rest of her life? I can guarantee what was on her mind wasn't how to be in a D/s relationship. It was how to survive her day to day life.  But, then there's also this:
quote:

She left a two year long, aubsive, relationship. The the next day she was moving in with us.
So, basically two years being abused, spent a month thinking about it WHILE BEING ABUSED, moved in the next day, and had a week to decide if she wanted to be owned? And you don't see a flaw with that?


quote:

And I don't want to see any posts saying "O, well a month isn't enought time to decide something like that"
Too bad. I'm going to say it. It wasn't enough time. Hell, even AA and NA say no relationships for the first year.
 
quote:

Master told her when she agreed that she didn't know what she was getting into (he told me the same thing at first too, by the way) and she still said that this is what she wanted.
Then why didn't he take the high road and make the choice based on HIS judgement, not hers?

quote:

I think you should try and think of the details that have maybe not been mentioned before you go acusing me or my master of not having her best intrests at heart.
I believe the tone of the posts was "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" not "You're a manipulative bitch".

quote:

Don't asume you know everything just because you've read a thread on something that you are not involved in.
I don't pretend to know the details. But, unlike you, I have a degree in psychology specializing in family counseling, and I can without a doubt say that a relationship is the last thing she needs right now.

quote:

I started this thread for advise... not critisems of Master and I.
No, you came here with criticisms of her.  Let me refresh your memory.
quote:

And ever sense she moved in I feel like I her babysitter/mommy/middle man/big sister (and she's a year older then me how does that work?).


quote:

Or I have to hold her had through, what I feel, are the simplest of tasks: such as cooking scrambled eggs. *roles eyes*


quote:

Then I get anoyed because this is the third time that week that she's asked this

quote:

It almost seems like she's trying to get attention... 

< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 5/22/2007 3:19:42 PM >

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/22/2007 10:43:56 PM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		*Applauds Oside Girl for her blunt reply!*
Maam Jay

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/31/2007 8:52:42 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

Master told her when she agreed that she didn't know what she was getting into (he told me the same thing at first too, by the way) and she still said that this is what she wanted.
Then why didn't he take the high road and make the choice based on HIS judgement, not hers?



i agree with OsideGirl here, this statement is almost alarming to me. A Master should always make the decision on what he feels is in the best interest of the sub in question or he's doing it for self interest. If there was no self interest  involved then one would almost have to assume he was to weak to say no to her, that he felt she was not ready. 

He nows she was abused, which means she is in a state of trauma and then he further acknowledges that she really doesn't know what she's getting into, but accepts her anyway??  This just doesn't make any sense to me at all. 

The objection isn't that this girl needed help and two people were kind enough to give her that help, the objection is - what is in this woman's best interest at this point in her recovery?  She cannot truly consent at this point because her mindset is like a scrambled egg.  If you had come along and told her hey i want to help you, given her a place to stay, the only way she will truly heal and be able to make her own choices, based on what she really wants and needs is time.  There simply has not been enough given in this instance. 

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/31/2007 2:41:45 PM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		Bottom line. WIITWD is no substitute for psychotherapy. And thats stands for "What It Is That We Do" to those who don't know.


CD

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RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/31/2007 6:47:32 PM   
dasein42


Posts: 44
Joined: 5/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shylahgirl

(I apologize for any miss spellings)
Master recently took on a second submissive.

She left a two year long, aubsive, relationship. The the next day she was moving in with us.

And ever sense she moved in I feel like I her babysitter/mommy/middle man/big sister (and she's a year older then me how does that work?).

Her self esteem is closer to the floor then my feet.

She's a nervus reck.

Always thinking she's in truble with Master when she hasn't even seen him yet that day (They both go to work in the mornings). Or I have to hold her had through, what I feel, are the simplest of tasks: such as cooking scrambled eggs. *roles eyes*

She comes to me asking, "Is He mad at me?"

(/quote)

Our first experiment in polyamoury and bdsm came about rather by accident when a girl somewhat younger than us needed assistance and we offered to let her stay with us.  She chose after a short time to ask me to be my 2nd submissive and I accepted her as such.  Unfortunately she has/had psychological instability, including bipolar disorder and dissociative identity disorder.  Please don't think I'm putting those with such disorders down, my wife/primary submissive and I both have bipolar disorder ourselves and can certainly relate to the difficulties involved. 

After a few months it became clear that the arrangement was not working, despite the fact that she and my wife are both bisexual and had a relationship between them, as well as their mutual relationships with me.  We ended the relationship on amicable terms when all of us had to leave the city we were living in for different reasons - work, school etc. 

My wife and I are now in a poly relationship with another married couple.  Originally it was not meant to also be a D/s relationship, but the other woman in the relationship asked me to dom her, and eventually asked me to collar her, and we have entered into an owner/owned relationship.  This time the relationship is working very well to the satisfaction of all four people involved. 

In many ways it sounds like your master is overconfident in his abilities to work with someone who has serious issues and in fact is in need of professional therapeutic assistance.  Stable individuals, whether by working through their issues or not having them to begin with, seem to be an a priori for a serious polyamorous lifestyle.  You don't need to be put in the position of having to dominate this girl along with your master, simply because she is unable to stand on her own when master is not around.  That kind of instability will also tend to lead to jealousy and other things that usually destroy a poly relationship.

It is a big mistake IMO for a master to not listen to his sub(s), and to make the assumption that (s)he can do whatever they want simply because they are the dominant in the relationship.  Bringing the issues up with your master now will prevent resentment and other problems down the road that can lead to the submissive simply walking out on the relationship, and the master left confused as to the reasons because (s)he didn't listen earlier to the signs of problems from the sub.

(in reply to Shylahgirl)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 5/31/2007 7:08:58 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Just wondering...where do you buy your armor?  Been a while since I saw that on the rack at Penney's.

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 6/4/2007 1:27:44 PM   
simplylisalisa


Posts: 4
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Calandra

If you and your Master are working together, HE will see that she isn't working out if she doesn't take full advantage of all you do for her. 


I agree completely!

I have a question.. Did you and your Master discuss your role with #2? Are you now the alpha slave in the family? Or are you and #2 peers?

Warm regards...

(in reply to Calandra)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 6/4/2007 1:39:19 PM   
simplylisalisa


Posts: 4
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline 		Standing ovation to OsideGirl... bravo!!!

(in reply to Shylahgirl)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 6/4/2007 5:03:27 PM   
newbiz


Posts: 3
Joined: 6/4/2007
Status: offline 		Sounds like she needs theropy or something.  someone to talk to and just vent about all the things that went on in her past.  this will allow room for new experiences, and with time, things will change.

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Frustrated with Masters second submissive. - 6/7/2007 10:47:26 AM   
MasterJax


Posts: 17
Joined: 12/29/2005
Status: offline 		Shylah, that is pretty typical behaivour as whats been said before. I honestly have no advice to give but keep being yourself, she may need counsuling after such a relationship. Just be yourself and the situation will improve, yes she will be annoying at times but she probably wants to please and be considered in a positive light that she is going to micromanage her whole life until she gets the idea that she doesn't have to and that you and your master have picked her out for the reasons you have.

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 80
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