May Day March (Full Version)

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LotusSong -> May Day March (5/3/2009 7:49:34 PM)

We had a May Day march this weekend. Actually it was a “Hate Joe Arpaio” rally. Joe is our notorious sheriff of Maricopa County, Arizona who enforces the law. Some of those laws are concerning illegal immigration.

I’ve been wondering what, actually, are considered immigrant rights. The signs that were held up were primarily in a foreign language that the majority does not readily speak here.

So let me ask those who wish to be Americans: What does becoming an American mean to you? What are you expecting? Will you stand with us and learn our culture and language? Will you unite with us and join our melting pot? Being an American is not easy. We have laws and ways that we do things.

If your country is unsatisfactory for you, why do you not help to make it better instead of bailing on it when things are tough? It’s not exactly a picnic here right now, either.




mefisto69 -> RE: May Day March (5/4/2009 3:35:58 AM)

Lotus.... most Arizonans should be a little more self searching. How about asking yourselves: why you don't learn a foreign language when government statistics show that by actiivley engaging in one over a life time can earn a person $2 million more in income..... : why do you still surpress native americans and mexican americans who were living on that land from thousands of years to hundreds of years before white folks came along and built cities ?




LotusSong -> RE: May Day March (5/4/2009 8:02:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mefisto69

Lotus.... most Arizonans should be a little more self searching. How about asking yourselves: why you don't learn a foreign language when government statistics show that by actiivley engaging in one over a life time can earn a person $2 million more in income..... : why do you still surpress native americans and mexican americans who were living on that land from thousands of years to hundreds of years before white folks came along and built cities ?


What would the area be like if those Europeans never came andbuilt the cities..and the factories and farmed the land for more than just their families? Immigrants used to come with a skill other than menial labor..they came and invented things to make life better overall. I'll never understand why someone wants to immigrate to another country and expect that country to change to suit THEM? The traders that worked with the Indians learned their language. Those languages are not written, they are all verbally taught. I've yet to see courses to teach them and I would LOVE to learn them. I already speak 3 languages. Please address the original OP. We need understanding and accountability, not defensiveness.




caught -> RE: May Day March (5/4/2009 7:08:44 PM)

It was pointed out to me, and I find this hard to disagree with, that illegal immigrants are the peasants of our age, and as with other age's peasants, they are not a threat to a status quo or a national interest.  Instead, it is the people who are using illegal immigrants, benefitting from their own lawbreaking, who are thusly empowered by the illegal immigrants sacrifice, who are the real threat.  Sheriff Joe understands this well enough to drive this point home in his interview on the Colbert Report:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/224923/april-20-2009/joe-arpaio

If we build a wall, and people hop over it, what do we do? An excellent question for any patriot...

To the point of Mexicans not bettering Mexico: a long term view is Mexico may want those folks back, as it needs to build infrastructure for its 109 million people.  It may take immigrants from South America, though - who knows... my $.02....   [&:]




DarkSteven -> RE: May Day March (5/4/2009 7:20:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
Immigrants used to come with a skill other than menial labor..they came and invented things to make life better overall.


Not sure what you mean,  The Chinese and Irish came here and supplied manual labor to build the railroads.  The immigrants I can think of worked at menial positions.

quote:


The traders that worked with the Indians learned their language. Those languages are not written, they are all verbally taught. I've yet to see courses to teach them and I would LOVE to learn them. I already speak 3 languages.


If you don't mind changing religions... The Mormons teach Navajo at their language center in Provo, Utah.  Navajo is considered the hardest language taught there.  I've picked up about eight words of it over the years.




rfd1 -> RE: May Day March (5/6/2009 11:39:57 AM)

Glenn Spencer lives in AZ and he has been trying for years, along with  Lou Dobbs, to get something done but Bush and Obama are on the same page, transforming America into a 3rd World nation.
As they say, ENJOY!




CruelNUnsual -> RE: May Day March (5/6/2009 12:57:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
Immigrants used to come with a skill other than menial labor..they came and invented things to make life better overall.


Not sure what you mean,  The Chinese and Irish came here and supplied manual labor to build the railroads.  The immigrants I can think of worked at menial positions.



You are thinking of "immigrants" too narrowly. Europeans were immigrants at one time also.




LotusSong -> RE: May Day March (5/6/2009 2:07:47 PM)

We all came and started at the bottom of the food change and proved ourselves. We strove to become part of the country and blended to work with those already here. We didn't refuse to learn the language and expect handouts with the thought of "take over".

I look at Mexico's history. The Spanish exporers came, took all the gold and slaughtered the Indians, brought disease then scampered back to Spain. If there was any difference in their mindset... Mexico would be a thriving competitor on the world stage unstead of a 3rd world country so that even their own residents don't want to stay there. Have something to bring to the table other than "neediness"!

Yes, I'm angry with our ILLEGAL immigration situation. The concept of out-breeding those here will backfire. They don't understand supply and demand. Where there is an over abundance of one thing- the value decreases and the rarer is sought.




caught -> RE: May Day March (5/6/2009 3:36:08 PM)

I see the problem as not one of national interest, but as a test of not only the rights of citizens, but also a measure of the economic opportunity available to each same citizen. The controversy should be described as the illegals squandering opportunity. The distinction between a Mexican and an American owner of a company leveraging illegals are nil in this context: each breaks the law and ruins opportunity by distorting the labor market in, for instance, the trades, in home construction etc. The solution may be in part security: illegals happen because of a pervasively corrupt border area, itself born of the layers and layers of sustained coercion and violence characteristic of the powerful "Drug War." Each of these problems, even the distant ones, contribute in total, to a net loss of opportunity for all.

This is a kinda network-centric way of understanding the problems we face, whch are often dramatized into the varieties of propaganda familiar to us: the tale is the outright criminality of the Mexicans, whove slaughted 10,000s of Americans, or the new one about the guns flowing south. I think the aggressive, rebuild-America-into-the-Supranational-Powerhouse perspective will take note of these propaganda, but understand that our harm and our ruins are not only bad in trial-lawyer-enabling legal context, but are also bad in the economic context where we've lost opportunity because of illegals, or because of their costs to our hospitals etc. You can get exercised over each, even become an activist for one of these causes, but the political strategy needed to win in each is anti-Democratic. You have to hope to hack your way into media exposure and publicity, as well as opportunistic politicians. I think any analysis or measurse that reflects available opportunity, on a wide scale, will achieve the broadest political consensus.

Ultimately, the instabilities inherent in the world may only increase. We need to consider adaptation as a virtue in this coming age, so great are the historical forces joining our own. I think what this means is that we must build an economy where we've an abundance of growing wealth, of growing opportunity. And so that we build in capacity for illegals. We need to be much more clever than our petulant media and politicians make it seem.

Specific policy proscriptions that may truly fix the opportunity issue?

-Education, Education, Education: Keep Americans learning, structure universities to enable broader market for education. Expand the public investment in Education. Push system-engineering understanding of energy. use all our wiz-bang media-rich applications to make learning basics trivial.

-Continually test and pursue local investments in self-sufficiency, building layers of resiliency, sources of income, backup capacities etc. This would include utilizing cheap technologies to expand our productivity. Every citizen a gardener, and/or fabricator etc. We all need to become like Toyota, basically.




kittinSol -> RE: May Day March (5/6/2009 3:44:49 PM)

Immigrants don't have to adopt your way of life or your beliefs, LotusSong. There is still freedom of thought in America, as far as I know.

PS: incidentally, I am one of them.




slvemike4u -> RE: May Day March (5/6/2009 6:39:47 PM)

Gotta love those immigrants......vava...vooom!!!!




LotusSong -> RE: May Day March (5/6/2009 6:44:19 PM)

Thank you for a very thoughtful and contructive reply :)




LotusSong -> RE: May Day March (5/6/2009 7:02:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Immigrants don't have to adopt your way of life or your beliefs, LotusSong. There is still freedom of thought in America, as far as I know.

PS: incidentally, I am one of them.


and you speak English beautifully :) Commonality is uniting. Diversity CAN be devisive when stubbornly taken to extreems. What I mean here is the areas of town that are now all in Spanish here. It's like Mexico is brought with them with no intent to contribute to the new land they come to outside of their own mirocosim. If the lifestyle doesn't change, why bother? It's like they are rejecting the prosperity they seek.

I gotta know... when Americans move to another county (I don't mean as tourists), I mean to go there to start a new life... are we the same? Do we wander around like a deer in the headlights relying on the kindness of strangers and expect the new place to hold our hand or do we research a bit first and learn the customs and language first? I didn't even visit Canada without knowing the language a bit.

My grandparents immigrated in the late 1800's. They were duely documented and de-loused and took their new country into their heart and joined the ranks in the steel mills.




philosophy -> RE: May Day March (5/6/2009 7:07:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
I didn't even visit Canada without knowing the language a bit.



...which one? i mean, there's English and Quebecois obviously. But then there's Michif, Cree, Inuit...........oh the list goes on........




slvemike4u -> RE: May Day March (5/6/2009 7:15:31 PM)

And some cities have Polish areas where immigrants from the same mother country settled in one area.....German town is a common phrase in America.....New York City has large Italian neighborhoods.This sort of common nesting by groups of immigrants is nothing new and certainly nothing surprising......when coming to a new country the familiar can make all the difference.




kittinSol -> RE: May Day March (5/6/2009 7:15:40 PM)

Ooooooops... now that I think of it, I wasn't deloused.




slvemike4u -> RE: May Day March (5/6/2009 7:21:30 PM)

Self edited.......vicodin ,Jack Daniels and that sort of post....can lead to me inserting foot in the mouth.




kittinSol -> RE: May Day March (5/6/2009 7:49:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

I gotta know... when Americans move to another county (I don't mean as tourists), I mean to go there to start a new life... are we the same? Do we wander around like a deer in the headlights relying on the kindness of strangers and expect the new place to hold our hand or do we research a bit first and learn the customs and language first? I didn't even visit Canada without knowing the language a bit.



Germans form the largest 'ethnic' group in the United States. Do you speak German?




TreasureKY -> RE: May Day March (5/6/2009 8:09:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Germans form the largest 'ethnic' group in the United States. Do you speak German?


Why should she?  Despite the number of United States citizens of German descent, most came to the US and adopted its language. 

Or perhaps you'd like to claim that German is the predominant language here?




slvemike4u -> RE: May Day March (5/6/2009 8:14:45 PM)

Is speaking the language of your fathers somehow an insult?




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