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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 2:09:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

No, Kal, I don't think I have any problem understanding English. I just see someone who dug himself into a hole that made him look like a complete arse and is now desperately trying to get himself out of it.

A LOT of good replies here. Venatrix's excepted. I have not dug a hole. You just have a hard time understanding stuff. Sorry. Apparently many others do not have the same problem. They know exactly what I, and others on this thread are saying. I am not going to lower myself by get into name calling with you.
Lady Hibuscus...believe it or not, that is one of Ms. M's few flaws. She has a tendency to jump right in and start doing manual labor instead of pausing for a second to choose a man or men who would be happy to do it for her. Once you make her slow down, get out of the way, and let her boys do it, she is very appreciative.
I LOVE jen. She rules (as she serves).

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 2:34:24 PM

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Jen indeed rules!!!

Whoa, that is an odd visual, MsM doing something like hole digging... unless she felt the guys needed to know how it needed to be done!

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 2:36:28 PM

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ha! Thanks slaveKal. We'll end up being the mutual appreciation society here.

I think when dealing with personalities like MsM's (and MsKitty's for that matter), their independent streak gets a head of their actions and personalities as Dommes. I like to tease MsKitty and call it Her "little girl 'I can do it all by myself' mode"...I generally get smacked and She stamps Her foot afterwards but it's an accurate description of what's going on. It's not that She's not a Domme, it's not that She doesn't need my help or service, it's not even that She doesn't want it or doesn't recognize it....it's that She gets caught up in what She's doing and focuses SO hard on that, that She forgets the pat on the head the same way She forgets Her handbag when She's in a rush out the door. I think MsM gets the same way...at least that's what it looks like to me ;-)

boi
Future ruler of the Universe serving MsKitty
Silently plotting the revenge of the swine
Hoping to harass MsM and slaveKal again soon :-)

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 2:38:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Jen indeed rules!!!

Whoa, that is an odd visual, MsM doing something like hole digging... unless she felt the guys needed to know how it needed to be done!

lol If she thought that the hole needed to be dug and didn't have it in her head from the start that a boy would be doing it for her, she would ask the boy to get the shovel then she would start digging herself without ever a thought that the boy should be doing it for her.

boi

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 3:02:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Jen indeed rules!!!

Whoa, that is an odd visual, MsM doing something like hole digging... unless she felt the guys needed to know how it needed to be done!

lol If she thought that the hole needed to be dug and didn't have it in her head from the start that a boy would be doing it for her, she would ask the boy to get the shovel then she would start digging herself without ever a thought that the boy should be doing it for her.

boi

I am EXACTLY the same way. I think it's an independent woman thing, or something.

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 3:04:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

Oh, Shakti, I wish my mother had lived long enough to read these words. Much of her life was dedicated to following this path and I'm convinced that it is why she spent a good portion of it being so unhappy. She never learnt that a man's interest in a woman, when based on beauty and sex, is only temporary at best.

Honestly, I do believe that some women can make the Courtesan mode of power work extremely well for them. But it requires some important gifts, including great physical beauty, an enormous reserve of sexual energy, and a level of confidence and intellectual honesty that many women do not possess. You have to be willing, able and shameless about converting sexual power into other resources when and how you need them; many women are burdened by a sense of shame which keeps them from being able to do this well, which is a terrible vulnerability.

If you have the tools and the talent--I do not think the power needs to be "temporary". A truly great Courtesan can not only enslave individual men, but she can have a playful and powerful a relationship with Mankind in general which can last well into her old age.

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 3:47:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

No, Kal, I don't think I have any problem understanding English. I just see someone who dug himself into a hole that made him look like a complete arse and is now desperately trying to get himself out of it.

A LOT of good replies here. Venatrix's excepted. I have not dug a hole. You just have a hard time understanding stuff. Sorry. Apparently many others do not have the same problem. They know exactly what I, and others on this thread are saying. I am not going to lower myself by get into name calling with you.
Lady Hibuscus...believe it or not, that is one of Ms. M's few flaws. She has a tendency to jump right in and start doing manual labor instead of pausing for a second to choose a man or men who would be happy to do it for her. Once you make her slow down, get out of the way, and let her boys do it, she is very appreciative.
I LOVE jen. She rules (as she serves).

You know, if you weren't going to lower yourself to name calling, you should have avoided it in the first place. It's a bit late to pretend that you are taking the high road when you've already insulted me. I understand exactly what you are saying, and my opinion is that it looks like you are trying to tart up dominating your "mistress" as submission, and that's what I'm calling bullshit on. Your words above state "once you make her slow down . . . ." If you have to "make" your dominant do anything, she is not in charge, you are.

(in reply to slavekal)

RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 4:09:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix
Your words above state "once you make her slow down . . . ." If you have to "make" your dominant do anything, she is not in charge, you are.

Venatrix...you have to know MsM...you really do to understand that slaveKal or anyone else for that matter can't really "make" MsM do anything she doesn't want to. But that when slaveKal references "making her slow down" he simply means making a pointed effort to help her not miss out on the things she likes to do because the Woman has a hyper focus on things and is incredibly detail oriented. It's what makes her as a person and a Domme so attractive to other individuals (not to mention a nice ass for facesitting...no disrespect intended).

SlaveKal openly admits to having bottom from the top and that doing so isn't comfortable for him. He does so because he knows what MsM's goals, values, and triggers are and simply wants her life to be as completely fulfilling as possible. Let's go for an example here of the nessicary evil of bottoming from the top or "making" a Domme do something for their own good as an s-type...

Domme A has a doctors apointment in the morning say...about 8:30am. Domme A owns slaveB. SlaveB says all night to Domme A, "ummm...you have a doctor's apointment in the morning Ma'am....we should probably head home soon." Domme A blows of slaveB because she's having fun and they stroll in around 3 am the night before. When morning comes Domme A doesn't want to get out of bed and orders slaveB to leave her alone. SlaveB would not be a responsible slave to DommeA if slaveB did not force the issue of getting up to get to the doctor's appointment. This is for DommeA's own good and helps DommeA to reach her goals and follow her values both as a Domme and a person.

What slaveKal does with MsM is the same thing just with the twist of being kinky. What he does feeds her goals and values and if it didn't, he wouldn't be doing it. When the objective statement is "if this didn't help her and feed her goals as she has stated them to me, I wouldn't be doing it", then one MUST understand that bottoming from the top is a form of service not Domination.

Just sayin...

boi
Future ruler of the Universe serving MsKitty
Silently plotting the revenge of the swine
and admiring women's asses everywhere

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 5:53:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix
If you have to "make" your dominant do anything, she is not in charge, you are.

In many cases this may be true. I can say that in my own relationship, though, the boykin has been known to remind me of his place from time to time, and he wasn't trying to be in charge.

Example: I walk into the kitchen and find some dishes that need doing or a mess that needs cleaning up. Without even thinking, I open the dishwasher and begin loading it--but upon hearing it open, the boykin comes bounding down the stairs half-dressed in distress. Hastily he shoos me away from the machine. "Nooo! I can do it! I like to do slave things!" he cries.

He'll do the same if he comes looking for me in my office, finds I am not there, and is struck with the sudden ghastly suspicion that I have wandered into the bedroom and found an unmade bed. Literally he will come rushing in, cursing the Bed Goblins who clearly left these rumpled sheets and quilt just moments ago and promising to set traps in the corners of the room to catch them.

In our relationship, the problem isn't that I am insufficiently dommely or that I am dying to do these chores and making some sort of point of doing them. The problem is that I have spent quite a number of years recently without someone else to do these things for me, and it's simply second nature now for me to take care of it without even thinking about it. I'm so used to doing for myself that I honestly forget that I have a slave that gets pleasure and joy out of doing things for me! And the fact that I have an "Absent-Minded Professor" thing happening half the time also doesn't help...

In any case , it could be that Kal does something similar from time to time. When the boykin does it, I find it very endearing and adorable, and it reminds me that I am well-loved and well-served by a Very Good Boy. Perhaps his Mistress feels the same.

< Message edited by ShaktiSama -- 5/19/2009 5:55:27 PM >

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 6:02:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

No, Kal, I don't think I have any problem understanding English. I just see someone who dug himself into a hole that made him look like a complete arse and is now desperately trying to get himself out of it.

A LOT of good replies here. Venatrix's excepted. I have not dug a hole. You just have a hard time understanding stuff. Sorry. Apparently many others do not have the same problem. They know exactly what I, and others on this thread are saying. I am not going to lower myself by get into name calling with you.
Lady Hibuscus...believe it or not, that is one of Ms. M's few flaws. She has a tendency to jump right in and start doing manual labor instead of pausing for a second to choose a man or men who would be happy to do it for her. Once you make her slow down, get out of the way, and let her boys do it, she is very appreciative.
I LOVE jen. She rules (as she serves).

You know, if you weren't going to lower yourself to name calling, you should have avoided it in the first place. It's a bit late to pretend that you are taking the high road when you've already insulted me. I understand exactly what you are saying, and my opinion is that it looks like you are trying to tart up dominating your "mistress" as submission, and that's what I'm calling bullshit on. Your words above state "once you make her slow down . . . ." If you have to "make" your dominant do anything, she is not in charge, you are.

Number one, I never called you any names. Only you did that.
Number two, there was no talk of "tarting up". You simply imagined that.
Number three, I was being a bit tongue in cheek with the "making her slow down" bit. There are times when a subordinate's job is to guide the boss or superior officer. You gotta know how and when to do it, though.

I might not be taking the highest of all possible roads, but I am not about to lie down in the muck with those who call names.

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 6:28:49 PM

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I'm a do-er - much of this sounds very familiar. Sometimes it is difficult to be an observer/beneficiary.

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 11:06:26 PM

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Kal, I can't find the earlier post I mentioned, but I recall your saying a couple of months ago that you "chastised" her for not being Dominant enough, too buddy-buddy, when you've had work parties before, and that men won't come back when that happens. So, it seems to me that it's an ongoing issue in this particular environment, rather that she woke up feeling too vanilla.

Undergroundsea and boijen, in my last relationship, I was submissive. I tend to like doing things to help people anyway, but hadn't had any previous experience with service-oriented submission, with it having any kind of romantic/sexual/submissive charge to it. The first time I did some dishes for my Dom, he stopped in while I was part-way through, grabbed my hair, bit my neck, and swatted my ass. I was feeling a pretty strong submissive buzz while I finished up! While I probably would have helped him occasionally (I also cleaned the bathroom, folded/hung laundry, etc.), I would have felt a little taken for granted if it were just on the list of chores, and he never thanked me or did anything to make it more fun. He didn't have to do it every time, but pretty quickly, I associated it with submission, not just helpfulness or wanting to please him.

When I had my submissive, and he was doing dishes or chores, I frequently did similar things, not because he expected or demanded or even asked for them, but just because he was there - the way he moved or looked at me pushed my buttons. With him, and with a couple of guys I've dated, even when they were doing their *own* housework, I'd kind of go "RAWR", turn off the water, grind against him for a minute or two or bite him or something, and either let him get back to what he was doing, or haul him off to the bedroom to have my way with him.

I'm not heavily service-oriented, but something about a guy cleaning stuff can sometimes push my buttons. If he went "You know, you're not treating me like a submissive enough, so I'm not going to do x, y, and z for you," though, it would probably turn me off, and we'd be in serious discussion mode about needs, desires, what we both want out of the relationship, rather than it making me hot and wanting to go into play mode. If he's just prancing around naked or in a maid uniform and expecting me to stand over him with a whip, I'd rather just do it myself than bother with playing - if he's going to do service, I want him to *DO* it, not half-ass play around with it and deliberately do it wrong in hopes of getting thwacked.

Anyway, bottom line is, I think it's good to mix service with play at least occasionally, and I think it's reasonable for a submissive to want to do fun stuff, or to make mundane stuff fun, but expecting it every time, when their partner isn't in the mood, feels too demanding and not especially submissive. There's a balance there that's going to be a little different for each individual, and that's part of the compatibility determination.

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/20/2009 4:26:36 AM

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Yeah, it is a sort of ongoing thing. As far as relationship problems go, this is a good one to have. The lady admitted that she did exactly what I said. And she explained why in her blog. She was going through a bunch of emotions. Being lazily served by five men is bad manners in most situations. It takes some gear shifting to get comfortable with the idea that it is the best thing to do for all involved, including yourself. She said that feelings of vulnerability and guilt made her jump right in and act extra vanilla. I believe she has plans to make amends.She is throwing me back into chastity and going out with one of her boys on the side (not one of the men from the work crew) and getting banged silly the next couple of nights. I think it's safe to say she's not in vanilla mode today.

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/20/2009 7:11:56 AM

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Multiple thoughts follow.

Sometimes I hear the sentiment that the submissive is supposed to serve; why does he expect any participation from the dominant? The question I then ask is what makes service to this dominant different than being helpful to a neighbor, and what is the dominant's role in creating this difference? I think such a sentiment assumes that service is about simply going through the motions--for me, it is not. For me, the recipient of service matters, and the response of this recipient matters.

Often participation by the dominant is assumed to mean that the dominant is constantly behind the submissive with a whip in hand. To me, participation is not to constantly supervise or play, but to give a feeling that there is a D/s dynamic (assuming for sake of discussion that is the primary motivation behind service). To create a feeling requires effort but not constant effort at every moment. I have had occasions where I did not feel a D/s dynamic and, in fact, in some cases I felt appeased.

Context matters. A relationship that is based on service only (a houseboy, for example) and draws primarily on the D/s dynamic relies on the participation by a dominant towards service more than one that has a broader basis. In a relationship that is based only on service or a D/s dynamic, maintaining or building a D/s energy is particularly important the first time service is had. I draw a parallel to a first date. If for whatever reason, one does not show or create the right energy on a first date and the date has only that energy to read, odds for a second date are low.

Compatibility matters. One who strongly aligns with receiving service for sake of D/s is that much more compatible with someone who enjoys providing service for sake of D/s. There is a smaller likelihood for guilt or appeasement (which I see to detract from the D/s energy), and the energy for service is likely to evolve naturally with little conscious effort. One who enjoys receiving service for sake of convenience than for sake of D/s is less likely to naturally create the D/s energy--for such a dominant there is more conscious effort required.

In an earlier post, I spoke about the value of direct discussion to understand the specific submissive versus the general submissive. In my experience, this direct discussion does not always happen when the context is service. service is a negotiation within itself. I think sometimes the absence of this discussion comes from underestimating the complexity of the psychology behind service. It's like, oh you like service, terrific. Then next, how do you like bondage?

;-)

If this direct discussion was happening broadly across those who engage in service, we would not have disconnects of the magnitude we see in threads about service.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 5/20/2009 7:19:38 AM >

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/20/2009 7:43:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

There is this great advantage to living in the South. People don't tend to raise a brow when a submissive male does the very same things that a Southern Gentleman might do. I'm very much hoping that this won't become a problem for Me when I move back west.

Good evening, LadyPact :)

Having moved from Louisiana to the Pacific Northwest, i experienced rather profound culture shock. I am a female, serving a male, so perhaps your experience will be different if the pendulum has swung that far. I get the very clear message quite frequently in public that it is not OK for me to serve him, and we are not "in your face" at all. His family accepts me well, although they do consider me an oddity and both his mother and his sister repeatedly commented about what i should or should not allow/do/etc. We went to a street festival this weekend and i got no less than 6 comments from total strangers about fixing his plate for him. Our relationship is ours, though, and not dictated by outsiders. It just took some getting used to. I have a sneaking suspicion that it may be quite OK for a male to serve a female here, though, lol.

Respectfully,

amy

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/21/2009 4:20:45 AM

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It is different with a female dominant relationship. We are pretty out about it, but not in a leather and chains kind of way. At street fairs and such, I pull her in the rickshaw I made for her. She sits in comfort and shade while the peasants sweat. People LOVE it. We are always surprised by how strong the reactions are.

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/21/2009 1:36:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: downkitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

There is this great advantage to living in the South. People don't tend to raise a brow when a submissive male does the very same things that a Southern Gentleman might do. I'm very much hoping that this won't become a problem for Me when I move back west.

Good evening, LadyPact :)

Having moved from Louisiana to the Pacific Northwest, i experienced rather profound culture shock. I am a female, serving a male, so perhaps your experience will be different if the pendulum has swung that far. I get the very clear message quite frequently in public that it is not OK for me to serve him, and we are not "in your face" at all. His family accepts me well, although they do consider me an oddity and both his mother and his sister repeatedly commented about what i should or should not allow/do/etc. We went to a street festival this weekend and i got no less than 6 comments from total strangers about fixing his plate for him. Our relationship is ours, though, and not dictated by outsiders. It just took some getting used to. I have a sneaking suspicion that it may be quite OK for a male to serve a female here, though, lol.

Respectfully,

amy

Hello amy. Thank you for taking the time to post on your personal experience. I completely understand culture shock. I moved from the west (CO) to here (GA) a few years back and things are quite different. I'm wondering how much adjustment I'll have when I move back west (CA) again.

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/22/2009 12:15:03 AM

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I have the tendency myself to jump in and do stuff.

Of course, most of the time it is....Hm, you know, if we have four hands working on this job it will get done twice as fast.....and then there will be more time to do evil, wonderful things to hir body.... but then again, most of the time when I have my girl do things, since she only visits for weekends, I tend to save the things that are two person large jobs (cleaning out a walk-in closet, for example) for then, and just take care of laundry and dishes myself during the week.

Leaving aside entirely issues such as if I don't do dishes I won't have anything to cook in, I know she's not entirely in this role just to wash dishes. It would be different if she lived in.

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/22/2009 3:58:21 AM

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In some cases, that is true. But when a lady has five grown men available, her input will be miniscule. As far as Ms. Mlicious goes, I think she has settled comfortable into being served role. Just caught a 24 hour vanilla flu. Judging from the fact that I am alone, in chastity, while she is probably just now waking up on a boat where she spent the last two nights with another man, I think she's gotten over it.

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/22/2009 8:57:05 AM

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Has she gotten over it, or is she just annoyed that you were displeased by her slipping up into a mortal role?

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