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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 7:27:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
That doesn't sounds like a "limit" to me. It sounds like an inconvenience. She refers to her D-type as "owner" as classifies her profile as "slave". I'm sure if this had been a pre-discussed hard-limit, that information would have been divulged by now.

On the other hand, it may be a sign of real incompatibility

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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 7:27:27 AM

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To weigh in with another stranger's opinion: I think he was being unreasonable expecting you to get in a comfortable and sexual frame of mind while being in a relative's house looking after a baby.

I wouldn't sit here and question my slavishness if I were you, I would be questioning his ability to use a little bit of common sense on what is and isn't appropriate. What were you supposed to do, go off into your sisters bedroom and play with yourself?

And as someone else pointed out, you never know if there is a camera around, or if you sister may have come home early, or called you to check in, or whatever else. You were responsible for the baby in your sister's home, you were there to babysit, not to use your sister's home as a place to carry out your master's whims. There's a time and place for everything, and I think your master used very poor judgement.

Anyway, the bottom line of this has to be how you feel about all of this. It doesn't matter if a million and one strangers think it was ok for him to expect this, if it feels wrong to you, then you have to deal with the issue, and not second guess yourself. Maybe you can reach an understanding with him if you talk it out, or maybe you're just not compatible.

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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 7:28:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

And why is that, exactly? Sorry, sub here, but still...
I've asked this in other threads, but have never gotten a good answer. In a previous thread, a poster stated that expecting a D to present every possible situation in which he might want to exert his dominance to a sub during negotiation was "ridiculous" and "unrealistic". So how can a sub be expected to know each and every possible situation that might be a hard limit from the get go?

People normally have a much broader and clearer idea of the things they definitely do no want to do than those they do.

If every situation becomes a matter of being able to introduce a new stipulation and new "limit", there is no genuine power exchange. And certainly not in any situation where the sub (certainly not a slave) offer it up with the expectation that it must be met.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

Don't mean to jump on you, Mike, as I really enjoy your posts. I just don't get the "one chance to set limits" thing in the context of a relationship that includes growth, exploring, and expanding experiences. Really, how many subs would think of hard limiting "being commanded to come while babysitting my niece in her mother's home"????

That would fall under most people's: "Doing kink-related or sex-related things with children around" which would fall under the more general category of "Doing kink-related or sex-related things in general public".

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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 7:29:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
That doesn't sounds like a "limit" to me. It sounds like an inconvenience. She refers to her D-type as "owner" as classifies her profile as "slave". I'm sure if this had been a pre-discussed hard-limit, that information would have been divulged by now.

On the other hand, it may be a sign of real incompatibility

Well, obviously. Perhaps moreso in the 'incompatibility between saying and doing' department.

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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 7:35:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

That doesn't sounds like a "limit" to me. It sounds like an inconvenience. She refers to her D-type as "owner" as classifies her profile as "slave". I'm sure if this had been a pre-discussed hard-limit, that information would have been divulged by now.

Thing is NZ when you set up limits can you always be sure that you remember everything? What if something comes up that never crossed your mind before but that you know you can't do

If you've chosen an obedience/power dynamic with a partner, I would hope (regardless of being able to know enough specifics about yourself) that you have surrendered unto someone whose decision-making skills and general demeanor and character you honor, respect and value.

Once that is in place, if anything did pop up unexpectedly, you bring it up in the most yielding tone (since it is essentially a scenario where you are having to suddenly introduce previously unexpected restrictions to the desire of your D-type). From there, the fact that you are in a dynamic of trust and duty should mean that you are trusting the D-type to make the most appropriate decision, even if it's not what you want.

Really, if people want a soft-D/s dynamic where they can feel the boundaries for themselves as they come, more power to them. However, having someone profess to be owned and to be a slave and be incapable of obedience, and to then parade the topic publicly in a manner that will draw sure compassion-drenched coddling is a direct insult to any sensible concept of thorough submission I can fathom.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 8/9/2009 7:47:51 AM >

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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 7:37:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

Anyway, the bottom line of this has to be how you feel about all of this. It doesn't matter if a million and one strangers think it was ok for him to expect this, if it feels wrong to you, then you have to deal with the issue, and not second guess yourself. Maybe you can reach an understanding with him if you talk it out, or maybe you're just not compatible.

i dont think it was reasonable too, either. and, again, this falls back on her. when we jump in and out of relationships we have to expect what we get. did he use good judgement? no. at that moment, i would have to reconsider my own judgement, on many levels. you are there to babysit, not talk to your "boyfriend" (yeah.. lol.. babysitting days flashback!) to me, neither of you used much common sense. within less than 2 weeks, you left one man, and are owned by another. even if you knew this man long before the other ended, 2 weeks, uncollared, isnt enough time to get to know anyone in a D/s, M/s dynamic.

slow down, get to know these men. test the waters, and their morals. just because they can order you, doesnt mean every man WILL order you. many will consider the implications of their demands, and the possible outcomes. some will even ask you, if the situation is iffy, if you wish to obey, instead of making it a command.

you just got to find the right man for you. and start taking responsibility for your own actions. sex is great... a relationship with a Dominant is more than just about sex.

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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 7:38:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

tazzy wrote:

you idenitfy as a slave, and you are owned. you were babysitting, and the child was asleep. how long does it take you to cum? i can understand your reluctance. i can also understand his comments.

a slave obeys... until they no longer obey... then they are no longer a slave to that man.

Bingo.

And isn't that exactly why one is not a slave to someone they just met for coffee? Why is it some folks think that just because one identifies as Dom, and you identify as sub or slave, that right from the get-go...you must act as though you already are 'owned'?

To me, the process of becoming owned is just that; a process. A relationship must develop; ideas, philosophies and limits discussed; trust must have a chance to grow and flourish.

It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the OP is not at that place with this Dom. While I understand we do not know all the facts, I would likely never BE with one who thought it would be fun to play in a place where I was ‘on duty’ or working. Such a relationship would not flourish; I would never be his.

Just my thoughts,
bearlee

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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 7:39:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee

And isn't that exactly why one is not a slave to someone they just met for coffee? Why is it some folks think that just because one identifies as Dom, and you identify as sub or slave, that right from the get-go...you must act as though you already are 'owned'?

Because she identified herself as being "owned".

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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 7:41:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

This all depends, what limits did you set at the beginning cause you can't change them after the fact

And why is that, exactly? Sorry, sub here, but still...
I've asked this in other threads, but have never gotten a good answer. In a previous thread, a poster stated that expecting a D to present every possible situation in which he might want to exert his dominance to a sub during negotiation was "ridiculous" and "unrealistic". So how can a sub be expected to know each and every possible situation that might be a hard limit from the get go?

Don't mean to jump on you, Mike, as I really enjoy your posts. I just don't get the "one chance to set limits" thing in the context of a relationship that includes growth, exploring, and expanding experiences. Really, how many subs would think of hard limiting "being commanded to come while babysitting my niece in her mother's home"????

I very much agree with this, which is why I think the first year or so of a relationship should be exploring and negotiating.

That said, if you identify yourself as a slave, there is some expectation of obedience.

I can see where her owner's request might have squicked her, um...I was married for 20 years, had 2 children, and guess what? We did naughty adult things while the kids were asleep.

So, I don't think the request was unreasonable; I think the OP may want to reevaluate her self-identification as "slave."

Just my thoughts.

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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 7:41:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

tazzy wrote:

you idenitfy as a slave, and you are owned. you were babysitting, and the child was asleep. how long does it take you to cum? i can understand your reluctance. i can also understand his comments.

a slave obeys... until they no longer obey... then they are no longer a slave to that man.

Bingo.

And isn't that exactly why one is not a slave to someone they just met for coffee? Why is it some folks think that just because one identifies as Dom, and you identify as sub or slave, that right from the get-go...you must act as though you already are 'owned'?

To me, the process of becoming owned is just that; a process. A relationship must develop; ideas, philosophies and limits discussed; trust must have a chance to grow and flourish.

It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the OP is not at that place with this Dom. While I understand we do not know all the facts, I would likely never BE with one who thought it would be fun to play in a place where I was ‘on duty’ or working. Such a relationship would not flourish; I would never be his.

Just my thoughts,
bearlee

that is why, even though i live with a Man i call Master, i am not owned, nor do i identify myself as being owned.

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 7:46:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daintydimples

We did naughty adult things while the kids were asleep.

*gasp!*

No??

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I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 7:46:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

within less than 2 weeks, you left one man, and are owned by another. even if you knew this man long before the other ended, 2 weeks, uncollared, isnt enough time to get to know anyone in a D/s, M/s dynamic.

Yup. This is the key, really, on both sides. Get to know a person before you commit to an ms/ds dynamic. Otherwise, both parties are just setting themselves up for failure.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 7:51:12 AM

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General Reply -- If a slave disobeys she is still the Man's slave. Sorry but slavery is NOT so cut and dried as the if you disobey you are no longer a slave --- that's the BS of people who have never lived the actuality and want to sound good. Slaves DO disobey -- they STILL are slaves, they simply have to deal with the consequences of their disobedience -- yes, one of which may be getting released but most men who become Masters while the goal is obedience don't waste their time requiring perfection without errors and disobedience at times.

People get realistic please.    OP you made a choice to disobey -- it doesn't matter the REASONING or the excuses you make for not doing so.    In the end, he will have to weigh the cost of your disobedience against your value and determine if continuing paying the cost of keeping you is worth it.

The problem i have with the concepts being thrown around is that when does the excuses and reasonings stop, i mean if this is her being reasonable and responsible what about something simple and the excuses and reasonings occur?   Obedience is pretty black and white as is disobedience -- trying to determine whether or not its a reasonable REQUEST or COMMAND is when second guessing the dynamic and relationship comes into play.

So you should be looking at it as did you obey or disobey -- questioning the reasonableness of his commands and whether or not he should have requested same should not be what is being debated, if he is your owner, then its not about HIM -- its about you and whether at that point in time you were obedient or disobedient. I know many people will try and rationalize how a slave SHOULD second guess, double check and determine reasonableness of a Man's commands and requests of a slave - but seriously by doing so and trying to reason and excuse your own behavior you are simply creating conflict in YOUR MIND as to when you should and should not question . you then stand the chance of doing this not based on reasonableness but if you really wanna.    When you look at it as obedience and disobedience -- that is the simple concept -- its why when people say being disobedient means you are no longer a slave to the Man is well -- bullshit and a fantasy concept of people who really don't understand the actuality of living as a slave.

I am not advocating disobedience in a slave -- i am saying call it what it is -- deal with whatever comes from that disobedience instead of trying to rationalize what you did and what he did -- and move on with the lesson learned. Its really not worth all this angst lol you disobeyed, own up to it, don't make excuses for it, deal with what he wishes to pose as consequences and enjoy being his slave.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 8/9/2009 7:54:50 AM >

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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 7:51:53 AM

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I think it was unreasonable. I wouldn't have done it. It's one thing to do "naughty" things in your home when your own kids are asleep. It's something else when you are asked/expected/ordered to do something naughty in someone else's home while babysitting someone else's kids.

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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 7:53:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally
Thing is NZ when you set up limits can you always be sure that you remember everything? What if something comes up that never crossed your mind before but that you know you can't do

Well, I'm going to have to agree with others that I dislike using the word "slave" here. But I don't think the OP was asking us to critique her word choice.

I agree that there's nothing wrong, in general, with having limits. I also agree that sometimes these limits come up on us unexpectedly.

** the following statements assume some sort of real committed relationship, not a play partner **
And I most especially agree with WyldHrt. I'd also like to know, "why you can't change them [the limits] after the fact". Really, that statement seems to fly in the face of observable reality. I read posts here every day where people are struggling one way or the other with limits (and unilaterally changing them).... this post in fact... so apparently you CAN change the deal after the fact. Like Wyldhrt, I can also easily envision dozens of situations wherein such a renegotiation would be preferred to it's alternatives... say the dissolution of the relationship.

Of course, in my opinion, as soon as you start talking in terms of "limits", you're in a he-said, she-said sort of mode and are now doomed to argue over them. It surpasses my understanding that anyone would setup a system wherein every time there is some disconnect between D and s, it's an automatic conflict.

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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 7:54:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SassySarijane

I think it was unreasonable. I wouldn't have done it. It's one thing to do "naughty" things in your home when your own kids are asleep. It's something else when you are asked/expected/ordered to do something naughty in someone else's home while babysitting someone else's kids.

Because the kids, surely, can detect these subtle moral differences?

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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 7:55:00 AM

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Well BINGO! ....I guess.

What I failed to convey was the part where I wonder why she does consider herself 'owned' to a guy she clearly does not trust and does not wish to obey. I agree that once a BDSM-type relationship is in place that the sub/slave's job is to jump when her Dom/Owner says "Frog". I know that... honest.

What I don't get is being with someone who just might tell you 'we're gonna play here while you baby-sit your neice'. Again, for all I know...they were playing online (!!! Another concept, but I won't go there now)...and while I've played with those who totally humiliated me at Thunder (yearly get-together in Denver) and did things to me I never thought I'd do and thought I really did not enjoy (another story)...I did trust them and understood the place was appropriate and if EVER I did things I didn't wanna...that was the place! I stammered and shook and ultimately ended up crying and sobbing hard...but I did it.

But, I knew them and trusted them... AND I understood should I once say 'no'...that would be the last time we played. Had this couple owned me, should I say 'no' even once...they would disown me. I get it...really.

I don't have the feeling this girl does and that is why I wrote what I did. I was writing my thoughts on what being owned is all about. I thought perhaps it would give her something to consider while she re-considers with whom she's does what she's told.

I hope that makes more sense,
b

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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 7:58:07 AM

LillyoftheVally

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: SassySarijane

I think it was unreasonable. I wouldn't have done it. It's one thing to do "naughty" things in your home when your own kids are asleep. It's something else when you are asked/expected/ordered to do something naughty in someone else's home while babysitting someone else's kids.

Because the kids, surely, can detect these subtle moral differences?

No because ADULTS can

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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 8:01:24 AM

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Am i the only one who is raising an eyebrow that what we are speaking about is considered or calling it "naughty?" When i have sex or do sexual things sorry but its not naughty (inappropriate at the time maybe lol but if ya don't get caught idea comes to mind). Its sex and sexual acts folks, the reason people always look at kinky things as wrong instead of natural is because of the idea thrown around that its "naughty or wrong."

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 8/9/2009 8:02:21 AM >

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RE: Am I being unreasonable? - 8/9/2009 8:01:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

** the following statements assume some sort of real committed relationship, not a play partner **
And I most especially agree with WyldHrt. I'd also like to know, "why you can't change them [the limits] after the fact".

Subtle wording difference:

"Why can't [the limits] change after the fact"

They certainly can. But it defeats the entire concept of the PE dynamic if the impetus is the sub deciding xhe doesn't feel like obeying the already default rule-set. Otherwise, there is no rule set. And if the sub/slave has chosen such a dynamic with someone who chooses not to give hir the change xhe wants at a whim, who really is responsible?

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Like Wyldhrt, I can also easily envision dozens of situations wherein such a renegotiation would be preferred to it's alternatives... say the dissolution of the relationship.

If the renegotiation happens like such:

sub/slave: "I'm not going to do that. We need to renegotiate our dynamic to encompass me not wanting to do this now (and/or in the future)."

As opposed to:

sub/slave: "I will do as you ask, but I would like time whenever it's convenient for you to discuss this topic as I had not foreseen it being an issue of difficulty for me and would like to possibly request leniency with being told to do so in the future."

Then there is no PE, but rather a selective role-playing.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 8/9/2009 8:08:55 AM >

_____________________________

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I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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