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RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/4/2009 5:29:45 AM   
PeonForHer


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Gawd.  That reminds me of the time I was sitting in a cubicle next to someone and started to hear those suspicious 'slap, grunt' noises.  At the conclusion of my business in my own cubicle, I noticed that the man next to me had placed a tilted mirror on the floor in such a way that he could see up into my cubicle and I could (if I'd wanted) look up into his.  I felt that this lacked a certain style, frankly. 

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/4/2009 5:37:01 AM   
AngelGeena


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer



Gawd.  That reminds me of the time I was sitting in a cubicle next to someone and started to hear those suspicious 'slap, grunt' noises.  At the conclusion of my business in my own cubicle, I noticed that the man next to me had placed a tilted mirror on the floor in such a way that he could see up into my cubicle and I could (if I'd wanted) look up into his.  I felt that this lacked a certain style, frankly. 


At first I kept thinking cubicle, small padded work space. They do that at work there? *snort* I need more sleep.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/4/2009 7:21:56 AM   
undergroundsea


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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AngelGeena
At first I kept thinking cubicle, small padded work space. They do that at work there? *snort* I need more sleep.


If had not read your thread, I would have left this thread thinking Peon has a weird colleague, and wondering how he placed the mirror as described when cubicles have walls that meet the floor ;-)

Cheers,

Sea

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/4/2009 8:50:39 AM   
PeonForHer


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Well, are any of you kind folk going to tell me what they're called Stateside, then? 

Fjoeken 'sidewalks' or 'suspenders', no doubt.  Why can't you speak properly?  *Grouch, grumble*.

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RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/4/2009 10:04:06 AM   
undergroundsea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Well, are any of you kind folk going to tell me what they're called Stateside, then? 



They are called stalls here.

Cubicles is used here to describe partitions to create mini-offices in business settings.

Cheers,

Sea

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/4/2009 10:19:22 AM   
frankieboy52


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There are different degrees of breathplay and strangulation would be at the top of my list of what not to do.However,a simple hand over the mouth with the nose pinched off at times is also breathplay and it is even without the nose pinched off.And queening can also be considered a form of breathplay.I am just of the belief that we shouldn't think of it as only strangulation.Now i do love a hand over my mouth and an occassional pinch of the nose and i love queening as well but i would like to be with someone who is responsible enough for both activities.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/4/2009 1:33:36 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissDita

Yes the heart starts firing extra PVC's and every PVC can possibly cause a cardiac arrest. It can happen after a few minutes, you really can't know when it will start. Also you can't know how long the heart will continue to fire PVC's, so it's also possible to get a cardiac arrest hours after play.


Extrasystolic beats (PVC) also occur as a consequence of adrenaline rush and just about anything else that puts a load on the body or the mind. Which means they occur in a significant fraction of the people who are just playing regularly. I have asked a cardiologist about this, since my mother's ECG showed relatively frequent deflections of this sort during her time in the hospital while she was being treated for leukemia. I was told that 25% of the population has them, and that they are noted in the journal as a formality, but not worth thinking about unless there are medications or conditions where those beats can cause a problem. As a side note, anyone taking a tricyclic antidepressant will have tons of them.

When there is a rapid chance in heart rate, you have a significant chance of introducing one or more extrasystolic beats. That includes being surprised, frightened, angered, aroused, anxious, or just about anything else that builds up a quick physical response in which the body prepares to perform better. So long as we are talking about primary extrasystolic beats, and not ones that occur secondarily to another condition or a medication, then these are just one of those many small ways in which the human body shows that "good enough" is where nature will tend to call it a day.

Your body may be a temple, but it isn't Fort Knox.

However, when dealing with people who have preexisting cardiovascular, pulmonary or cerebral defects, or who have significant systemic illness, or when causing actual hypoxia to occur, that is a very different matter, and extrasystoles are just one of a ton of different things to take into consideration. With frank hypoxia, you will see seizures occuring after a short amount of time, for instance. Speaking from experience (no, not in connection with breath play), those are really not particularly pleasant. And, of course, the potential for brain damage during hypoxia is very real; in fact, the pleasure some experience from it is directly related to a chemical cascade that is intended to counteract some of the damage that occurs during hypoxia. If memory serves, an overdose of nicotine will cause a similar reaction.

Increasing the CO2-content to 30%, however, is only a problem with people having severe preexisting conditions.

As such, breath play can- at great expense- be practiced safely by maintaining 21% oxygen, 30% carbon dioxide and 49% nitrogen or helium at atmospheric normal pressure (1013mbar) for a limited amount of time on an infrequent basis, between healthy, sane, consenting adults. That's not what people generally do, however. Shrug. Darwin will win in the end.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/4/2009 1:46:38 PM   
AlchemicMelody


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Being a singer and an asthmatic (as well as having bad allergies) I'm all for being able to breathe. I would NEVER consider participating in breath play/breath control. 

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/4/2009 5:36:45 PM   
luvzdabutt


Posts: 16
Joined: 12/24/2007
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i am a sub, and i have a great fetish for mild smothering. It is no-where as extreme as the kind of things mentioned in this thread. i love for my Mistress to smother me with Her ass, pussy, breasts, hands, and feet. i also love for Her to squeeze my head between her thighs in a head-scissors.
But the way we do it is for just seconds, (30-40 at the most, just enough to make me squirm), then she lets me get some breaths, then smothers me more. Isn't this safer? Or is there a cumilative effect? It is just a part of our play, it never goes on more than several minutes. i do have some fantasies of Her choking and strangling me, but only within the same time limits as i mentioned above.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/4/2009 7:30:02 PM   
NakedHouseboy999


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One mistake by you and your partner is dead and you are on your way to prison on a manslaughter or murder change.

Why take this type of extreme risk?

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RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/4/2009 8:05:03 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

The fear aspect is something else again.  On this forum, the subject came up of how to induce a frisson of that without at the same time exposing a sub to real danger.  Trickery was one of the chief answers.  I suggested that if femdoms wanted to share such tricks, they might want to do it in private. 


In my experience, very few people can convincingly fake putting one in real danger. Exaggerating a real danger present, so that the situation seems a lot more dangerous than it really is, sure. But, as a general rule, people need to cross some fairly deeply engrained mental barriers to place those in their care in harm's way, or intentionally cause significant harm, and it is hard to miss the difference between someone who has mentally crossed that line and someone who has not. To pull it off, without the assistance of suspended disbelief, is tricky without sensory deprivation or conditioned fears.

That said, there are a lot of conditioned fears in most people, and sensory deprivation isn't hard to do.

For a man, a simple solution is to put on a hood, give him time to get a bit disoriented, then place him on the ground next to a car, or a small distance from one. Then roll a spare wheel/tyre against his groin and apply pressure as the car is slowly inched forward. Under the circumstances, one is apt to think that it is the car itself that is causing the pressure, which will cause most men to get rather anxious. For the coup de grace, if the car, the ground and the driver are up to it, spinning the car wheels suddenly (obviously not in the direction of the sub/bottom, lest the car jump by accident) will give a pretty serious fright for a moment.

That would be a bit evil, wouldn't it?

That said, I wonder how many of the people who were looking for ideas have actually considered just how differently a person responds to a threat that is perceived to be real, versus one that is not. I've seen people summon considerable amounts of strength, and at times a considerable capacity for violence, when confronted with a situation that appears to them to be threatening. Precisely that problem is one of many reasons I'm not all that fond of mind games and the like, others including traumatic fallout, deconditioning or numbing of healthy responses, potential trust issues, accidents due to unexpected reactions and so forth.

Too many variables for me to be comfortable with the responsibility.

OT, though, so perhaps you have the original link, if the thread is still active?

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/4/2009 8:22:24 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luvzdabutt

Isn't this safer?


Not necessarily. Being allowed to breathe again for a short period of time will suppress the feeling of suffocation far faster than it will reoxygenate the blood (completely replenishing the blood takes about 5 minutes, the time for it to cycle through the whole body, and by extension the amount of time it takes for all the blood in the body to pass through the lungs). That will be a problem if you do it for longer than you should. As you describe it, though, that shouldn't be a major risk.

Something that is occasionally mentioned in this context, however, is that by squeezing your neck, she is both triggering the vasovagal response (in effect telling your brain that your blood pressure is too high and needs to come down) and applying a bit of pressure to the carotid artery. If you have much cholesterol, it will deposit itself in plaques inside your arteries, and if one of these plaques get ruptured by the pressure, it will travel up into your brain. However, if you have low cholesterol, this wouldn't normally be a problem. Most people do accumulate plaques as they get older, however.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedHouseboy999


Not all jurisdictions will slap you with a manslaughter charge for a fatal accident during sex.

Breath play between reasonably well informed participants isn't an extreme risk.

It's just a greater risk than most of us are comfortable with, s'all.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to luvzdabutt)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/5/2009 2:18:39 AM   
MistressRouge


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From: Birmingham West Midlands UK
Status: offline
I consider Myself RACK , so yes I indulge in administering breathplay.

I do actually enjoy it, however I am not into passingout, or really heavy breathplay senarios, usually face-sitting, rubber tubing, hoods, bags etc.

I have an asthmatic breathplay sub that is still alive and kicking after 5 years, so we are both aware of the risks, and I am very confident in My administration of breathplay.





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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/5/2009 4:04:40 AM   
MissDita


Posts: 33
Joined: 4/13/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissDita

Yes the heart starts firing extra PVC's and every PVC can possibly cause a cardiac arrest. It can happen after a few minutes, you really can't know when it will start. Also you can't know how long the heart will continue to fire PVC's, so it's also possible to get a cardiac arrest hours after play.


Extrasystolic beats (PVC) also occur as a consequence of adrenaline rush and just about anything else that puts a load on the body or the mind. Which means they occur in a significant fraction of the people who are just playing regularly. I have asked a cardiologist about this, since my mother's ECG showed relatively frequent deflections of this sort during her time in the hospital while she was being treated for leukemia. I was told that 25% of the population has them, and that they are noted in the journal as a formality, but not worth thinking about unless there are medications or conditions where those beats can cause a problem. As a side note, anyone taking a tricyclic antidepressant will have tons of them.

When there is a rapid chance in heart rate, you have a significant chance of introducing one or more extrasystolic beats. That includes being surprised, frightened, angered, aroused, anxious, or just about anything else that builds up a quick physical response in which the body prepares to perform better. So long as we are talking about primary extrasystolic beats, and not ones that occur secondarily to another condition or a medication, then these are just one of those many small ways in which the human body shows that "good enough" is where nature will tend to call it a day.

Your body may be a temple, but it isn't Fort Knox.

However, when dealing with people who have preexisting cardiovascular, pulmonary or cerebral defects, or who have significant systemic illness, or when causing actual hypoxia to occur, that is a very different matter, and extrasystoles are just one of a ton of different things to take into consideration. With frank hypoxia, you will see seizures occuring after a short amount of time, for instance. Speaking from experience (no, not in connection with breath play), those are really not particularly pleasant. And, of course, the potential for brain damage during hypoxia is very real; in fact, the pleasure some experience from it is directly related to a chemical cascade that is intended to counteract some of the damage that occurs during hypoxia. If memory serves, an overdose of nicotine will cause a similar reaction.

Increasing the CO2-content to 30%, however, is only a problem with people having severe preexisting conditions.

As such, breath play can- at great expense- be practiced safely by maintaining 21% oxygen, 30% carbon dioxide and 49% nitrogen or helium at atmospheric normal pressure (1013mbar) for a limited amount of time on an infrequent basis, between healthy, sane, consenting adults. That's not what people generally do, however. Shrug. Darwin will win in the end.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Thanks Aswad, I didn't know that. Very useful information.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/5/2009 4:23:24 AM   
RavenMuse


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Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
Yes there are risks, like much that We do. If you approach it like an idiot then those risks are likely to cause injury or death. Approached with care those risks can be minimised. I'd have been about 17-18 the first time I did breathplay on a girl.... thats about 25 years ago and I haven't lost one (Nor harmed one) yet.

I wouldn't indulge in anything other than My own body to control their breathing, a blocked tube, a stubourn knot and ooops! Probably the safest method is what is known as rebreathing. her pinned down, My mouth over hers and My cheek covering her nose. her breathing controled simply by when and how much I breathe out of My mouth rather than out (As well as in) through My nose (Only with a fluid bonded partner obviously!). This means you can control the reduced oxygen supply for much longer than most other methods and of course, with no 'toys' involved, if You see ANY signs You don't expect the release is instant, simply detatching your mouth from theirs. No risk of bruised windpipe or any such.

Edit to add: I just want to reiterate on piece of VERY important advice above from Aswad.... INFREQUENT... this isn't something You want to overdo, not a form of play it would be wise to do on a too frequent basis, else You are stacking the risks. No hard and fast rule as to what constitutes too frequent, but it is something I personaly only indulge in every few months at most.


< Message edited by RavenMuse -- 9/5/2009 4:28:28 AM >


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And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/5/2009 9:51:17 AM   
PeonForHer


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Joined: 9/27/2008
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Hi Aswad,

OT, though, so perhaps you have the original link, if the thread is still active?
 
No I don't, unfortunately.  The thread's not active and I can't think of a decent search term - but it was a short one, anyway, so far as I remember.  The gist was that it was much easier to induce fear with a 'new' sub rather than one a dominant had been with for a while.  I think you're right when you say ' very few people can convincingly fake putting one in real danger'. 

For a man, a simple solution is to put on a hood, give him time to get a bit disoriented, then place him on the ground next to a car, or a small distance from one. Then roll a spare wheel/tyre against his groin and apply pressure as the car is slowly inched forward. Under the circumstances, one is apt to think that it is the car itself that is causing the pressure, which will cause most men to get rather anxious. For the coup de grace, if the car, the ground and the driver are up to it, spinning the car wheels suddenly (obviously not in the direction of the sub/bottom, lest the car jump by accident) will give a pretty serious fright for a moment.

That would be a bit evil, wouldn't it?

 
That would be downright satanic!  But . . . you've spilled the beans now, and I'll know what's going on should the same trick be tried on me.  This was why I was recommending a 'pool of fear-inducing tricks' shared privately amongst dominants.

One - a little less wicked - trick that was done on me (when I was in the Boy Scouts, believe it or not) involved being blindfolded and standing on a bench.  At each end of the bench was a scoutmaster, on whose shoulders I placed each of my hands.  I then felt myself being lifted above their heads - and told to jump off! 

Easy trick.  Of course they just lowered their shoulders and wobbled the table a bit.  But at the back of my mind I knew they'd not put me at risk . . .




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RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/5/2009 10:07:43 AM   
Venatrix


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Joined: 11/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

That would be downright satanic!  But . . . you've spilled the beans now, and I'll know what's going on should the same trick be tried on me. 



It doesn't exactly work like that, Peon.  In the cold light of day, you think, oh I'd know what she was up to and wouldn't fall for something like that, but when you're actually in the situation, under sensory deprivation, and with adrenaline and other hormones, and endorphins running amuck, your perception is actually quite different and rational thought goes right out the window.  Which is why mindfucks can be so much fun.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/5/2009 5:24:35 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissDita

Thanks Aswad, I didn't know that. Very useful information.


You're welcome, of course. It's worth what you paid for it, though, so double-check it with your doc before basing anything on it. I have been wrong in the past.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Probably the safest method is what is known as rebreathing.


Significantly safer, but I would prefer the mask approach myself. Barring that, an up to date diving first aid course and suitable CPR gear is a definite plus. Ventilators are pretty inexpensive, and cardiac compression units are dropping in price (not the same as defib gear). From what you describe, oxygen deprivation is part of the goal, since the alternative is to breathe twice as fast as normal, without temporarily witholding air. Hence the gear. Not the cheapest, certainly, but as we say in the laser hobby: if you can afford to do it, you can afford certified goggles (i.e. if goggles break the budget, you don't have the budget to do it safely). That's "just" eyes, though.

Incidentally, fluid bonding isn't the only thing to be aware of when rebreathing

If one of you has, or has had, significant pulmonary issues, like asthma, tuberculosis, recurring bronchitis and so forth, or one of you has a compromised immune system, then there is also the real possibiltiy of transmitting A. fumigans spores, which can colonize the lung in people who for one of the aforementioned reasons has "room to spare" in their lugs. By breathing in through her mouth, you are effectively bypassing most of the filters that reduce the number of spores making it to the lungs. Most of us inhale a few hundred of them every day, but generally through the nose, and those aren't fresh out of a suitable habitat (which means lungs and mouth, in this case).

Aspergilloma is usually asymptomatic, but can cause long term problems.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I think you're right when you say ' very few people can convincingly fake putting one in real danger'.


Yeah, you see this when training Czech wolfdogs (the dog breed, not actual hybrids) for body guarding and the like. A mock assailant closes on them with a knife, and they'll just sit there, head tilted, tongue lolling and tail wagging, or they'll come up to the mock assailant to play. Simply put, they sense that there is no intent to do harm. However, if you close on them (or a member of their family unit) with the intent to do harm, they go for the neck and hamstring right away. Brilliant pet for high risk kids, too.

Humans have the same sense, but most of us are too civilized and too used to a comfortable, safe life to trust it.

quote:

That would be downright satanic!  But . . . you've spilled the beans now, and I'll know what's going on should the same trick be tried on me.  This was why I was recommending a 'pool of fear-inducing tricks' shared privately amongst dominants.


As Venatrix pointed out, it's not at all the same thing to know as to experience. Think back to other first experiences, and you'll prolly find that you had a lot of ideas about what they would be like beforehand. And, most likely, a lot of them turned out very differently. No less so with fear based mind games. That is even a part of actual interrogation, at least if you're "keeping the gloves on," so to speak: sensory deprivation, confusion, immediacy, etc., all conspire to convince.

Still, keeping it private helps avoid recognition, yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

Which is why mindfucks can be so much fun.


And also why they can be dangerous.

As you say, rational thought goes out the window.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to MissDita)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/5/2009 5:35:25 PM   
blackpearl81


Posts: 506
Joined: 8/30/2005
From: Home of the Yankees
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

A dear friend died as a result of breath play gone wrong...  so yeah, I am not a big proponent of it.  I will do that queening/smothering stuff, but not cut off anyone's airways.  And having THEM hold their breath, sometimes.  All that asphyxiation play, carotid takedowns, drowning,  and the like are hot as hell, but not for me!  And I 'm Dangerdom! 

Is it possible to be "safe" during breath play?  Sorta, I guess.  I would never tell someone ELSE that oh it's wrong/bad/unsafe, since that stick could be waved at ME pretty easily.  I would very likely walk away from the scene, though.


<sighs lustily>
me
</sighs lustily>

=oP

< Message edited by blackpearl81 -- 9/5/2009 5:36:25 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Your opinion about breath control - 9/7/2009 8:19:28 AM   
thetammyjo


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Joined: 9/8/2005
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Breath control includes a wider range of activities than most people imagine. Some are very risky, anything involving choking that includes some object around the neck, and some are not very risky at all, my putting a hand over your mouth or making you take breaths on my count.

As with all things, you need to only do what you have learned to do as safely as possible, assess the risks, and do them only when you both are sure it is what you want to do.

Fox and I routinely do milder forms of breath play.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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