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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 1:44:31 PM

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Paranoia is a bitch......bias now occurs when one does not beleive a picture is flattering......what bullshit!

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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 1:52:48 PM

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Obviously the media has it in for Stephen Hawking bigtime. He must be a conservative...

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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 1:55:18 PM

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Hello and Tal, Music Mystery,

I haven't made the claims that started this thread, but I enjoy a challenge, so here goes.

On today's Fox News main page is a story about the NJ governor's race:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/01/new-jersey-voters-split-corzine-christie/

The story's focus is on how the election race is almost dead even, according to the results of a poll. Every other news source that I've heard has said essentially the same thing. The Fox article seems very matter of fact and even-handed. If there's bias there, intended or not, I cannot see it.

The New York Times today also has a story on the same race:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/11/01/nyregion/AP-US-Obama-Politics.html?_r=1&hp

This story leads off not with the facts, but with President Obama's opinions on the facts. Reading deeper, the Times article is comprehensive and fairly objective regarding election politics. However, this story is not un-typical of the Times' strategy in the past 5 years or so of leading off with opinions and/or headlines favorable to its position where the facts should be. As the Times (and I'm sure yourself) are aware, most readers to not read to the bottom of a story, particularly in printed editions where the reader must physically flip to an inside page.

Anecdotally, I first noticed this about 6 years ago when I bought a copy of the Sunday Times to read during my youngest son's Little League game. This had been a custom that I had enjoyed when my older son was also playing ball. However, this time it was annoying clear that every section began with at least one article that denigrated our president by citing the opinions of others where the facts should have been. Every section - National news, local news, even the Travel, Book Review, Arts, and Sports section took the opportunity to slam the administration about something. The newspaper that delivers All the News Fit To Print also saw fit to see to the strategic placement of the news it saw fit to highlight, which (in my opinion) is less honest than simply stating one's position and being straightforward about it. It was unreadable to me, and based upon their circulation, has also become unreadable to hundreds of thousands of other people as well.

The claims of "liberal bias" against the Times and others is not that they may have a left-handed bias, which is certainly within their rights to have... it is that they often claim not to, which is naive at best and underhanded at worst. CNN used to practice this as well, but to their credit have transformed to be the most evenhanded news source available, while CNBC has moved in the opposite direction. As to Fox, their business model is often misunderstood. They are not in the business of delivering Conservatism... rather, they are in the business of delivering drama and conflict. Their ratings thrive on debate, not adherence to ideology (which is also the key to the success of conservative talk radio, but that's another topic). Of course, their position is anchored on the right, but if that were the only component of their programming, they wouldn't be worth a second look... but the current administration's concern with the network is that this conflict strategy has become very attractive to open-minded independents, upon whom elections are decided, and so has seen fit to tag Fox as not being "real news"... which, in the big picture, is a very ironic position to take.

We can point back and forth to individual articles, but it is the trend over time that is most interesting in this subject. Overall, the trend is that "Liberal" journalism produces materials not open to debate, but takes the position that it reports unalterable, unbiased fact, and becomes insufferably indignant when questioned on their "unbiased" reporting. "Conservative" journalism is a free-for-all of all positions, that drifts right but exults most when its biases are questioned (as evidenced by recent ratings, if nothing else). The editorial position of Fox is not "Fair and Balanced", but they can make a more reasonable case than the New York Times that their operational model is... if for no other reason that they don't mind that "balance" being questioned. It's what they have exceeded at.

I wish you well, N

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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 2:21:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemesys

Hello and Tal, Music Mystery,

I haven't made the claims that started this thread, but I enjoy a challenge, so here goes.

On today's Fox News main page is a story about the NJ governor's race:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/01/new-jersey-voters-split-corzine-christie/

The story's focus is on how the election race is almost dead even, according to the results of a poll. Every other news source that I've heard has said essentially the same thing. The Fox article seems very matter of fact and even-handed. If there's bias there, intended or not, I cannot see it.

The New York Times today also has a story on the same race:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/11/01/nyregion/AP-US-Obama-Politics.html?_r=1&hp

This story leads off not with the facts, but with President Obama's opinions on the facts. Reading deeper, the Times article is comprehensive and fairly objective regarding election politics. However, this story is not un-typical of the Times' strategy in the past 5 years or so of leading off with opinions and/or headlines favorable to its position where the facts should be. As the Times (and I'm sure yourself) are aware, most readers to not read to the bottom of a story, particularly in printed editions where the reader must physically flip to an inside page.

Actually the two stories are not about exactly the same subject. The FNC story is entirely about the Monmouth/Gannet poll while the NYT article is primarily about comments made by Obama about the NJ governor's race and mentions the poll only in passing.

The FNC more directly comparable to the NYT article is:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/01/obama-makes-final-pitch-nj-governor-race/

And the bias is clearly in the FNC piece.

(in reply to Nemesys)

RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 2:42:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
So here we are. No evidence. Complete inability to put story against story to illustrate the bias.

With a fake challenge for evidence no less. You are certainly entitled to try and bait some sucker into playing tour game, Tim, but don't assume anyone is going to play along when you pretend it means something.

Fox is cable TV, the NYT is print. How exactly do you want to compare "articles?" Fox has a requirement to blather endlessly, the New York Times has as many inches between ads as they have. It's a completely different form of content, regarding similar subject matter.

Fun is fun, but now you are shark-jumping, and the leather jacket won't protect you.

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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 2:45:11 PM

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Rich,

The people posting above you seemed to manage it.

If Fox has so much time to fill, they might try content.

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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 3:10:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

If Fox has so much time to fill, they might try content.

Who is showing some bias now, Tim? The ratings indicate they have the content they need to be #1 in their breed.

And I don't see a valid comparison. Someone could play with the Times selections of certain words and quotes as evidence that they are positively biased towards the president.

Perhaps, instead of looking at one event, we need to look at a differing coverages of a similar event? Say, a story from 2005 about Bush II's approval numbers dropping, vs. a story from this summer, about President Obama's approval numbers dropping. Compare like with like, and see which culprit seems worse?

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 3:14:11 PM

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I think that if you could make a cogent argument regarding that comparatively, heads up---
THATS WHAT THE FUCK HE WAS ASKING FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE RICH!!!!!!!!! THERE WAS NO INSTANTANEOUS TIMELINE hooped or slithered or minefielded in that

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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 3:45:13 PM

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As far as Fox News goes I find them to be about as biased as other news organizations. Fox News has a slight conservative bent and NPR has a slight liberal bent. I am differentiating between the actual news portions and the "yell and scream at each other" portions of their broadcast. Fox news is not very biased, the rest of their programming is most definitely right wing. O'reilley, Glenn Beck, etc. is not news but the line gets blurred in peoples minds.

One problem with the question you pose is that it is based on perceptions. You and I can read the exact same thing and interpret it differently and see a bias either way.

Regardless of the facts, perception IS reality to an individual.

You did not put MSNBC on your list. Was this an oversight or was it intentional?
I bring this up because the only linkable story to an outright bias in a news story I come up with off the top of my head belongs to them. It had to do with the protests in Phoenix where a guy had a rifle slung across his back. MSNBC showed the rifle but not much of the guy carrying it. They brought up questions of racism and turns out the guy with the rifle was black.

Turns out the whole thing was a setup and MSNBC fell for it completely.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kyle-drennen/2009/08/20/gun-rights-group-calls-out-msnbc-claiming-gun-carrying-protesters-raci

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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 4:07:49 PM

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quote:

Actually the two stories are not about exactly the same subject. The FNC story is entirely about the Monmouth/Gannet poll while the NYT article is primarily about comments made by Obama about the NJ governor's race and mentions the poll only in passing.

The FNC more directly comparable to the NYT article is:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/01/obama-makes-final-pitch-nj-governor-race/

And the bias is clearly in the FNC piece.

You're correct in that the article you cited is more comparable. It wasn't posted at the time I made my comment.

However, please explain why the bias is "clearly" in the FNC piece in the article you cited.

Beyond your own feelings, that is.

I wish you well, N

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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 5:26:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemesys

quote:

Actually the two stories are not about exactly the same subject. The FNC story is entirely about the Monmouth/Gannet poll while the NYT article is primarily about comments made by Obama about the NJ governor's race and mentions the poll only in passing.

The FNC more directly comparable to the NYT article is:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/01/obama-makes-final-pitch-nj-governor-race/

And the bias is clearly in the FNC piece.

You're correct in that the article you cited is more comparable. It wasn't posted at the time I made my comment.

However, please explain why the bias is "clearly" in the FNC piece in the article you cited.

Beyond your own feelings, that is.

I wish you well, N

The FNC article is quite clearly written from a pro GOP PoV. Note the repeatedly emphasis of the potential outcome and the looking forward to 2010 elections in the FNC article.

(in reply to Nemesys)

RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 6:02:51 PM

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quote:

The FNC article is quite clearly written from a pro GOP PoV. Note the repeatedly emphasis of the potential outcome and the looking forward to 2010 elections in the FNC article.

Let's compare. The Times says "Obama's team already is looking ahead at next year's election, describing Tuesday's gubernatorial races in New Jersey and Virginia as a barometer his Republican opponents would cite in 2010."

Fox says "The results of Tuesday's elections could also foreshadow next year's elections, when 37 governorships come up for grabs."

If either statement is a "clear" indication of anything, it is only that we bring our own biases into how we read them, and how we may feel personally as a result. You'll have to do better to demonstrate that either one is a clear indication of bias in how these facts were reported. I suspect that we would have had this same conversation even if these exact statements were transposed into their opposite stories.

I wish you well, N

< Message edited by Nemesys -- 11/1/2009 6:41:10 PM >

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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 6:26:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

If Fox has so much time to fill, they might try content.

Who is showing some bias now, Tim? The ratings indicate they have the content they need to be #1 in their breed.

Rich, you're the one who said:

quote:

Fox has a requirement to blather endlessly

I responded to your assertion. You called it blather.

Is there any other way you can twist this? Any other way to complain? Endlessly, over and over, about the same thing?

I asked for balanced versions next to bias. You couldn't do it. End of story. Others were able to find comparable stories.

I did make a few assertions about Fox earlier--and supported them, with actual evidence.

That's how it works. Sorry about that.

And while you're bitching it can't be done, Nemesys and DomKen are rolling up their sleeves and taking a look, even comparing each other's take on things---all supported with actual evidence. Watch and learn.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 11/1/2009 6:27:56 PM >

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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 6:30:08 PM

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Best i can find on just a glance.

Ny Times: Democrats Strive to Hold Governor Posts in Two States

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/02/nyregion/02elect.html?hp

It's subtle but the left slant is there. Quotes Obama praising the NJ gov, uses Axelrod quotes that paint the GOP in a somewhat unfavorable light, quotes a supporter for Corzine that talks about the good he has done, quotes a Christie supporter that talks about fear, and quotes negative messages from Christie toward Corzine but not the other way.

Fox News.com: Democrats Scramble to Prevent GOP Victories in Key Races

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/01/democrats-scramble-prevent-gop-victories-key-local-races/

Again subtle but there is a definite right slant. Focuses a fair amount on Obama and how he is personally pushing for Dems victory in these races, uses a negative Corzine quote with no such Christie quotes, uses a negative quote from Valerie Jarrett toward the GOP, and uses a positive quote from John Boehner toward the GOP.

Take what you will from that. But I see slant both ways. Subtle yes, but again I haven't really looked into it much.

Edit to try to fix the font.

< Message edited by Lorsan -- 11/1/2009 6:34:23 PM >

(in reply to Nemesys)

RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 6:32:52 PM

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quote:

You did not put MSNBC on your list. Was this an oversight or was it intentional?

I addressed this earlier in the thread, a couple of times. People were looking to Yahoo and Google as if news organizations, when they are simply collecting feed, not news organizations themselves. Their purpose is Internet traffic, not reliable news. MSNBC is a hybrid, but clearly born of the same ilk. I don't use it, but if they have a liberal bias, it wouldn't surprise me.

That's not the same as claiming long established and respected news organizations such as the Times and NPR are just liberal bias. So yes, it was intentional--especially given that network TV news turned to fluff years ago. Hardly comparable to the Times or NPR.

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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 6:50:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorsan

Best i can find on just a glance.

Ny Times: Democrats Strive to Hold Governor Posts in Two States

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/02/nyregion/02elect.html?hp

It's subtle but the left slant is there. Quotes Obama praising the NJ gov, uses Axelrod quotes that paint the GOP in a somewhat unfavorable light, quotes a supporter for Corzine that talks about the good he has done, quotes a Christie supporter that talks about fear, and quotes negative messages from Christie toward Corzine but not the other way.

Fox News.com: Democrats Scramble to Prevent GOP Victories in Key Races

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/01/democrats-scramble-prevent-gop-victories-key-local-races/

Again subtle but there is a definite right slant. Focuses a fair amount on Obama and how he is personally pushing for Dems victory in these races, uses a negative Corzine quote with no such Christie quotes, uses a negative quote from Valerie Jarrett toward the GOP, and uses a positive quote from John Boehner toward the GOP.

Take what you will from that. But I see slant both ways. Subtle yes, but again I haven't really looked into it much.

Edit to try to fix the font.

Lorsan, for a quick view that was an excellent analysis.

Do you think that the primary intent of each news organization was to modify the story to satisfy the inclinations of those who respectively read them, or do you think that it was to modify the perspectives of the readers to reflect the inclination of the news organization?

In other words, where would you put the chicken, and where the egg?

I wish you well, N

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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 7:09:45 PM

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Honestly, I'm not sure. Though I would hope that the slant either way was completely unintentional.

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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 9:23:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemesys

quote:

The FNC article is quite clearly written from a pro GOP PoV. Note the repeatedly emphasis of the potential outcome and the looking forward to 2010 elections in the FNC article.

Let's compare. The Times says "Obama's team already is looking ahead at next year's election, describing Tuesday's gubernatorial races in New Jersey and Virginia as a barometer his Republican opponents would cite in 2010."

Fox says "The results of Tuesday's elections could also foreshadow next year's elections, when 37 governorships come up for grabs."

If either statement is a "clear" indication of anything, it is only that we bring our own biases into how we read them, and how we may feel personally as a result. You'll have to do better to demonstrate that either one is a clear indication of bias in how these facts were reported. I suspect that we would have had this same conversation even if these exact statements were transposed into their opposite stories.

I wish you well, N

I think you cherry picked the quotes to make your points.

This paragraph, the lead from the FNC article, is clearly biased

quote:

President Obama tried to rally support for New Jersey Gov. Jon Corzine Sunday, making a return visit to the Garden State in a bid to prevent Republicans from sweeping the major state and local elections Tuesday

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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 9:24:38 PM

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If we are going to be quoting each other at each other, Tim...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Ridicule all you want, Rich

That wasn't an invitation?

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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/2/2009 4:45:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I only went back 15 pages, but the posts' assertions were repetitive, so I'll just offer that much--here are links to just a few people's claims that the media holds a "liberal bias":

BitaTrouble

Taking things out of context, Tim? If you read my post, I think you will find that I did not claim that the media holds a liberal bias. I was waxing philosophic about the numerous claims the media has a liberal bias suddenly being used as a legit source of news when it fits specific agendas. I don't recall ever even thinking the media has a liberal bias.

My post -

I'm not quite getting how the apartment went from being reserved for disabled access to public housing. I'm also not quite getting how 'innocent until proven guilty' got left by the wayside because of two anonymous 'sources'. I'm also not getting how we 'know' that a judge ordered her to leave the country four years ago and that we 'know' that she didn't do that .. (as opposed to leaving then returning or something like that..) and I'm most curious as to how the liberal media, long accused of bias is suddenly the paragon of virtue and a reliable source of information.

Eh, I'm floating around in space right now .. maybe it will come to me when I get back down to Earth.

Perhaps I should have put quote marks around the word liberal, but in my defense, I do recall being very spacey at the time I wrote that and was probably a lot more concerned with the heat of my ass then the heat on that particular thread. ::chuckles::

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(in reply to Musicmystery)

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