RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging?

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RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/4/2009 5:45:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
To clarify, I am in an open relationship, not poly. Is there a reason people mix and match these terms so much - I see them as VERY different dynamics.

Why are they used interchangeably? I hear poly more often in BDSM relationships, perhaps because it is also considered an alternative lifestyle and has significant presence in BDSM relationships. This more common presence of the term and concept might cause it to be used or assumed more often than it should be.

Also, I think open relationships and poly relationships are not completely disjoint. I think what distinguishes the two is that they start with different objectives with respect to emotional intimacy. However, open relationships can achieve emotional intimacy even if it is not sought as an objective. In some relationships that may be the cue to end the relationship. This potential for overlap might also have a role in the mix and match.

In any case, they are indeed different dynamics and that is a valid clarification. Some of the points raised about poly relationships might still apply to the open relationship: the various people meeting or knowing of each other, types of communication that occur in the beginning, etc.

Cheers,

Sea

Why do I keep coming to the conclusion that you believe an open or poly relationship should start off so blatantly laid out?

I keep getting this visual that goes "hi, I'm poly and I'll be your domme this evening. I'm into paddles, domestic objectification and latex. I'm married and have a collared sub as well as play partners...is that to your satisfaction? would you like to continue? [press ok] ".

Most things aren't so obvious. Frankly some people just don't hear the subtle hints until their hit in the head with the obvious. I'd find it hard to believe that someone like AAkasha would intentionally leave out parts of their life or not discuss at least in passing others in her life. Now someone wanting to believe that they are the one and only focus of a domme will hear that they are the only one until presented with evidence to the contrary, is it her fault that he heard what he wanted to hear?

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(in reply to undergroundsea)

RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/4/2009 5:52:25 PM

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quote:

As for dogs, I think men have a lot to learn from them. ;-)

Though I agree in theory there is one pivitol point to remember...the day that men can lick their own undercarriage, submission and possibly even their will to leave the house ever again will fly right out the window!!

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to SaharahEve)

RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/5/2009 9:38:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

My immediate and overwhelming response to the subject line of the OP is:

No. Mentioning other partners is not 'bragging', it is simply necessary and sane. If you honestly feel you can't or shouldn't mention your husband or some other submissive to a guy, and that he needs to pretend he's Mr. One and Only in order for a relationship with you to be worthwhile--yeah. Maybe he's not the guy for you. Denial is a bus that only stops in Crazyville. You are not and you will never be anything but a polyandrist domme. And people who are not in touch with reality do not make good play partners, no matter how cute they are.

Personally, I know that "dead silence" response you're describing very well. It's not uncommon even from men who KNOW that you have at least one other man in your life, who have shaken that person's hand and spoken to him in person, who know that you love and care for this person and that your dynamic is sexual and/or intimate in some way, blah blah "I've been completely honest 'til the cows come home" blah.

One of the ways that monogamous people cope with unwanted polyamory is through denial. Although they intellectually accept that "the other man" or "the other woman" or "the other apartment complex full of people you play with" might exist, functionally on a day to day basis they prefer to forget and they try to pretend that no one else exists.

Then each and every time they are reminded that The Other is in your life, whether you are saying that you are not available for a certain weekend, or you innocently chuckle over an email someone sent you, or you receive a planned phone call, or whatever--suddenly there is the crashing silence/tantrum/awkwardness and once again you feel the incredibly annoying sense of being morally compromised.

As if by being happy and harmonious with this self-deluding goof five minutes before, you were somehow colluding with a lie that he was telling himself...and now your honesty is being punished because you've ruined everything!

It's a not-very-subtle form of bullying and emotional blackmail. Not going to bother with the usual "bad thing = ditch him" nonsense--every man and woman in this world has to decide how much bullshit they're willing to tolerate in their relationships. I will say that it's not something I'd ever accept from a casual play date, though. With casual partners, that weird possession/denial anti-polyamory dance is way too inappropriate to be anything but spooky.

I couldn't have written this more perfectly if I had done it Myself. This is exactly My prior experience in the matter. I'm just going to say wow and leave it at that.

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Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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(in reply to ShaktiSama)

RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/5/2009 10:16:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

Personally, I know that "dead silence" response you're describing very well. It's not uncommon even from men who KNOW that you have at least one other man in your life, who have shaken that person's hand and spoken to him in person, who know that you love and care for this person and that your dynamic is sexual and/or intimate in some way, blah blah "I've been completely honest 'til the cows come home" blah.

One of the ways that monogamous people cope with unwanted polyamory is through denial. Although they intellectually accept that "the other man" or "the other woman" or "the other apartment complex full of people you play with" might exist, functionally on a day to day basis they prefer to forget and they try to pretend that no one else exists.

Then each and every time they are reminded that The Other is in your life, whether you are saying that you are not available for a certain weekend, or you innocently chuckle over an email someone sent you, or you receive a planned phone call, or whatever--suddenly there is the crashing silence/tantrum/awkwardness and once again you feel the incredibly annoying sense of being morally compromised.

As if by being happy and harmonious with this self-deluding goof five minutes before, you were somehow colluding with a lie that he was telling himself...and now your honesty is being punished because you've ruined everything!

It's a not-very-subtle form of bullying and emotional blackmail. Not going to bother with the usual "bad thing = ditch him" nonsense--every man and woman in this world has to decide how much bullshit they're willing to tolerate in their relationships. I will say that it's not something I'd ever accept from a casual play date, though. With casual partners, that weird possession/denial anti-polyamory dance is way too inappropriate to be anything but spooky.

Spot on.

As usual, Shakti, you sum it up pretty darn well. Emotional blackmail hits a note with me, and the process you describe where the man somehow convinces himself of having you to himself despite all the evidence around him (and things he willingly had agreed to) that say otherwise is very much "denial", and then some...

"As if by being happy and harmonious with this self-deluding goof five
minutes before, you were somehow colluding with a lie that he was telling
himself...and now your honesty is being punished because you've ruined
everything!"

Yes. I think most dominant Females who make a practice of enjoying more than one male knows this all too well.

_____________________________

Saharah

S a h a r a h E v e . c o m

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(in reply to ShaktiSama)

RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/5/2009 4:13:50 PM

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Married, non poly people will always have problems dating single people. Women have an easier time of it, b/c men are much more game and willing to compromise -- but even they have their limits.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/5/2009 4:21:58 PM

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Its exceptional to meet a person who feels compersion. Its also exceptional to meet a person who understands "less is more," aka limited relationships have a plethora of advantages over "total relationships." Most folks tend to think that any relationship that cannot be total is an unhealthy compromise. Some people need the ego trip of being "the one," and cannot understand the freedom of "not having to be the one."

There are also many gradations of handling more than one partner -- (1) denial; (2) compartmentalization; (3) boundaries; and (4) limited to less limited openness.

The person with multiple partners needs to always be respectful of how others need to be treated.

quote:

I think open relationships and poly relationships are not completely disjoint. --sea

The difference is simple. In a poly situation, Aakasha's husband has some kind of positive relationship with the secondary partner. In an "open" situation, Aakasha has permission to play but there is a strict boundary in place to protect the marriage. In such a situation, the secondary partner never meets the husband, the husband does not want to know very much, and its very likely the secondary partner is just a tertiary (not secondary) interest.

Open situations offer the "affair model" of relationships -- aka experiencial, bounded, and going nowhere. Here, both people need to be comfortable using one another to fulfill temporal needs, and they must not lose sight of this fact. As Aakasha intimates, its tricky to navigate.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 11/5/2009 4:40:23 PM >

(in reply to ShaktiSama)

RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/5/2009 4:51:33 PM

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Thank you for the insight.
Some personal conversations with people who know me better, in combination with this thread, have helped get me closer to the real issue at hand here, and it's really my problem more than anyone else's. For whatever reason, and not related to 'femdom' at all, I tend to think everyone's reactions, emotions and hurt are my responsibility, regardless of whether or not I have anything to do with it. I need to just accept that people won't listen, they will get hurt, they will try to manipulate me at times and they will call me nasty names when I don't bend to their expectations.

I appreciate all the feedback.

Akasha

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(in reply to ShaktiSama)

RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/5/2009 5:19:50 PM

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For whatever reason, and not related to 'femdom' at all, I tend to think everyone's reactions, emotions and hurt are my responsibility, regardless of whether or not I have anything to do with it.

Is such a trait so unrelated to being a femdom? It's just struck me: femdoms want to control, and (if confident) believe that they can control, another person. Perhaps if they're also good people as well as femdoms, they'll tend to feel more responsibility towards that person than they should, as a concomitant. Just a thought.

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(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/5/2009 5:26:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

For whatever reason, and not related to 'femdom' at all, I tend to think everyone's reactions, emotions and hurt are my responsibility, regardless of whether or not I have anything to do with it.

Is such a trait so unrelated to being a femdom? It's just struck me: femdoms want to control, and (if confident) believe that they can control, another person. Perhaps if they're also good people as well as femdoms, they'll tend to feel more responsibility towards that person than they should, as a concomitant. Just a thought.

No, it has nothing to do with femdom. I know plenty of incredibly vanilla women who share this same challenge, including some submissive ones.

Akasha

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RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/5/2009 5:55:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
There are also many gradations of handling more than one partner -- (1) denial; (2) compartmentalization; (3) boundaries; and (4) limited to less limited openness.

The person with multiple partners needs to always be respectful of how others need to be treated.

I would be interested to hear you elaborate on the gradations. I am making assumptions about what the first three mean and am particularly unclear about the fourth one.

1. Denial: as described by ShaktiSama.
2. Compartmentalization: compartmentalizing relationships into LTR-companion, non-LTR, etc.?
3. Boundaries: having boundaries such as no sexual intimacy, no intercourse, or no romantic love?
4. Limited to less limited openness? I am interpreting to be the same as boundaries (how open) and compartmentalization (the level of openness is determined by the compartment). Is this interpretation correct?

quote:

In a poly situation, Aakasha's husband has some kind of positive relationship with the secondary partner. In an "open" situation, Aakasha has permission to play but there is a strict boundary in place to protect the marriage. In such a situation, the secondary partner never meets the husband, the husband does not want to know very much, and its very likely the secondary partner is just a tertiary (not secondary) interest.

I think this line between a poly and an open relationship is blurry. I have a friend who identifies as a swinger. She and her husband are clear that their relationship is their primary relationship, and any secondary relationship that threatens it must end. This boundary could also be had by a poly couple.

In general, any other partner must be approved by each spouse, which is generally the case in poly relationships. I know of poly relationships that exist over distance and while the parties involved know of each other, they do not all have regular interaction. The same could also apply for local poly relationships, except it would happen by circumstance rather than by design.

Their reason to seek other partners for play is the rush they feel upon meeting and exploring someone new, which they recognize they can no longer offer to each other. To use academic terms, their love is more a companionate love, and they seek these secondary relationships for sake of more passionate love.

What they describe and consider an open relationship does not seem too different from how one might define a poly relationship. I think what makes their relationship an open relationship is that the objective is to play and not necessarily seek multiples loves or emotional intimacies. However, as they continue to play with a person, each they and the secondary can develop emotional intimacy.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 11/5/2009 5:59:32 PM >

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/5/2009 5:58:41 PM

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No, it has nothing to do with femdom. I know plenty of incredibly vanilla women who share this same challenge, including some submissive ones.

True. I know a lot of vanilla women who are similar, too. Like I said, just a thought.

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(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/5/2009 6:15:10 PM

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Akasha,

I agree with you. It has nothing to do with femdom, and a lot more to do with traditional female socialization. Women, in the US at least, are trained to feel responsible for others' feelings. It's probably part of the "be a nuturer" training that comes with growing up in this society. What you do with it, though, is up to you.

Falcor

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/5/2009 6:24:49 PM

BKSir

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I do talk about him, and I don't really consider it bragging, even though it probably really is. I love and adore him more than life itself and he deserves it. So, I really don't see why I shouldn't talk about someone that important to me. People talk about their husbands/wives/etc all the time, and to me it's really no different than that. :)

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(in reply to ShaktiSama)

RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/5/2009 8:43:39 PM

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1. Denial: as described by ShaktiSama.

Don't ask, don't tell, don't leave any evidence, and don't bring things up. I want all the appearances and associations of monogamy. The thought of you with someone else is too destabilizing.

2. Compartmentalization: compartmentalizing relationships into LTR-companion, non-LTR, etc.?

I suppose this is the mental part of denial and boundaries. Instead of acceptance and embrace, one "copes" and "deals with" the other by not going to certain places. For instance, one knows the two are getting together but one does not by extension think about what they are up to. One leaves that alone. Interconnected relationships, through privacy and custom, remain purposely and thoughtfully disconnected.

3. Boundaries: having boundaries such as no sexual intimacy, no intercourse, or no romantic love?

This is all about comfort zones, do's and don'ts, and what's on and off limits. Where people meet. Intimacy usually takes place in separate locations, e.g. not the same bed, not the same room, not the same house, maybe not even in the same geographic location. As with denial and compartmentalization, there is the ever present issue of "information management." How does one navigate privacy, jealousy, and respect issues between partners. One mostly finds out this stuff through making mistakes. I'm sure the boundaries you mention here play a role. Remember Aakasha's "damned romance" threads.

4. Limited to less limited openness? I am interpreting to be the same as boundaries (how open) and compartmentalization (the level of openness is determined by the compartment). Is this interpretation correct?

Yes. Funny, the degree of openness is usually dictated by the most limited person. For instance in my situation, I am very open and my boundaries are pretty broad -- but I never get to reach these areas b/c of the limits of my Mistress's husband, who is pretty much the opposite of me. Out of respect for him, or out of just plain necessity, I have to let him set the boundaries. (One can only go as fast as the slowest person in a group, otherwise the group breaks up.)

----

My approach to things is to be very compromising and accommodating. The downside to this for me is that sometimes I feel far from my own personal ideals and needs. On the other hand, I'm not sure I trust my own ideals, and I'm not convinced they need be foisted on the world.

---

As shaki intimates, most people aren't too flexible. When my wife was "actively dating" none of those men would have ever stomached meeting me. Would have been too freaky for them. I have met with my wife's current partner 3x over the course of about three (3) years. To me, that's pathetic, but that's how he likes it, so that's the way it is.

---

Its always interesting to me how a couple gets beyond themselves but remains together. The more common model is serial monogamy, wherein couples break up to seek more fulfillment in the next, more promising partner. This is the model of radical boundaries, denial, and limits, because all intimacy between the partners must be severed before seeing anyone else. These type of relationships are either "all in" or "all out."

(in reply to undergroundsea)

RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/5/2009 10:07:13 PM

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My relationship dynamic is different from yours, both in gender and orientations involved, so I don't know how helpful my experience will be. I really value that all three of us can spend time doing things together, and I can share things that my Master and I are doing with my submissive playpartner, and vice versa. I don't want to hide that someone is important to me, or feel like I have to censor myself.

He was open to my finding a submissive or bottom male playpartner. If we had gone that route, jealousy on the part of the submissive man, or being unwilling to meet my Master or getting upset about my mentioning him, would not have been acceptable. He preferred that I find a woman who was willing for us to co-top her, and we were lucky to find a wonderful lady who we get along with fantastically, literally as soon as I mentioned that I was looking. I don't consider our relationship to be currently poly or open, more monogamous with room for play, but we're open to finding a woman who we could be more involved with for a poly relationship.

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/6/2009 5:05:08 AM

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Five years ago i was seeing a switch Domme(she was sub to her Master).I know this is different but i can only say the Master treated me like shit although supposedly he was onboard with the idea of his sub becoming a Mistress.It was all BS because he turned around and found another female sub and dumped the switch sub/Mistress for this "bigger titted" and in much better shape and younger sub.I was single then and am married now but that is a whole can of worms i do not wish to even get into.But because of what happened those five years ago,i am really hesitant about talking Poly with anyone.I am not saying i might not eventually accept the parameters and it would be vastly different because a Mistress would be in chrage not a Master.But it would be unfair to cast expersions on anyone who lives a poly lifestyle especially coming froma married man who no longer wants to be..but again another can of worms.I just think it is vital to put all the cards on the table right from the get go..i think overall acceptance may be easierAnd if one did accept living poly,there really shouldn't be any complaints or a feeling of entitlement..but i suppose not everyone is emotionally stable enough to handle it.

(in reply to Andalusite)

RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/6/2009 10:35:37 AM

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I realize this isn't the poly board and we're talking about an open, rather than poly situation here, but these last few comments all seem to lean toward supporting healthier multiple person relationships when the person coming in *does* hear those little remarks about the other male in the female's life on a regular basis. That by doing so, it helps to prevent the new person coming in to allow himself to start being in denial that he is the only one or that there is a romantic interest when there really isn't any on the woman's part.

I have to admit, I wonder if this original was based on the same person from the other thread about the presumptuous sub who scheduled a trip without asking first. I can certainly see them both being about the same person.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 11/6/2009 10:36:48 AM >

_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/6/2009 10:42:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I realize this isn't the poly board and we're talking about an open, rather than poly situation here, but these last few comments all seem to lean toward supporting healthier multiple person relationships when the person coming in *does* hear those little remarks about the other male in the females life on a regular basis. That by doing so, it helps to prevent the new person coming in to allow himself to start being in denial that he is the only one or that there is a romantic interest when there really isn't any one the woman's part.

I have to admit, I wonder if this original was based on the same person from the other thread about the presumptuous sub who scheduled a trip without asking first. I can certainly see them both being about the same person.

Not the same person, no. Totally different situations.

This thread has been very helpful. For one, I realized that (to me), bringing up other partners does not seem to have tact, and that is part of the problem. Just as I have always thought it's tacky to talk about past partners to current partners during the courting process, as I have considered that an age old rule of dating you learn very early on. No one wants to hear old relationship laundry, of course they wouldn't want to hear about your current relationships either.

The second part is my issue. Even though I know I have made it clear to a casual partner that they are not the only one, and they accept and acknowledge this, I tend to avoid bringing it up in the future because I am avoiding the possible (likely) uncomfortable reaction, guilt trip, envy or jealousy. That's my own issue with letting other people affect me. Someone may choose to deal with my honesty by being pouty or upset at me, but those feelings directed toward me are not my responsibility to 'fix.'

On a side note for those that have speculated, it's not the husband (in most cases) that other partners have a problem with (as he's obviously a steady fixture) it's the other casuals. And it's more a possessiveness of my time or mindshare or my "playtime" more than anything. I am sure femdoms have plenty of experience with this even on a public play party level. You play with Sub A and Sub B is mad because he wants you to play with him more, and for some, even when it's fair, it's never enough for them. Or, they assume they are falling short and then go into a downward spiral of "What's wrong with me that you play with him more or instead of me?"

Akasha

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(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/6/2009 3:47:45 PM

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I do talk about my other subs, past and present. Don't do it to brag... simply to use as a point of reference and example.

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(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Do you talk about your other subs or is that bragging? - 11/6/2009 4:55:23 PM

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quote:

I tend to avoid bringing it up in the future

That's probably a wise move, being married with two or three men on the side of that won't leave the best impression when you are courting or trying to get intimate with someone. People are funny that way.

(in reply to AAkasha)

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