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RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/10/2010 6:10:11 PM

zenny

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Well.. If one is setting their consent upon legal restraints then yes, not having sex with an animal or child is within that. Were one to find themselves in a different area where one may be legal and the person doesn't care for it then you add an addendum. If someone were to say 'I'm okay with anything so long as it's legal' them I would assume they're okay with all those things that are legal in their area. Were this person in another they may start by saying 'Anything legal but animals, they're not my thing'. This goes more into contractual relations than anything else. I think it would be safest to say 'Anything added to previous play patterns needs to be discussed first'. Liar, no, uniformed, may be, taken advantage of, may be.

p.s. In my previous post where I mentioned 'consenting to such activities' I meant ones where a person consents to be harmed.

(in reply to subbisherri)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/10/2010 6:19:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx

It is all about free choice, which includes WHERE you choose to live.
Love it or leave it. In the first world, there is no iron curtain.

Assuming your reference to the "First World" in part includes the United States, you may want to rethink that....

(in reply to aldompdx)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/10/2010 6:46:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

some situations might be ok while others are not good at all

i totally dig the hot idea of a young girl... only just legal or maybe even just not... and an older seasoned man with a mean sadistic streak...
i get off on this fantasy myself in the role of the young girl...

In reality however it is VERY unlikely that the young girl knows enough about anything to have the actual understanding of what she might be giving her consent to... even if anything was discussed before hand.

I think it is most preferable that young people start out rather slowly... getting good at plain sex first, before getting into heavy inpact and forced clit piercing sort of activities... no matter how 'extreme' their fantasies

So it would be nice if all older and experienced men would respect the young girls... and keep the heavy stuff for later or find a more experienced partner

but alas life aint perfect

Interesting, you take exception to the law, not a subjective law of what is abuse within BDSM, but an objective quantified age of consent that is "painstakingly" clear. Seems conflicting, but more so indicative of why "the lifestylers" sometimes bring harassment and litigation onto themselves.

It is the same for throwing around the term "slave." I have never been comfortable with the term. Slavery is illegal, but along with the unicorn is a chance to mystify and captivate and audience with shock value. Has pointed out in this thread the term "sadomasochism" even looks "evil" when you compare it to "kinky sex."

Submission is something that is a underlying common denominator whether it is a bible derived Taken in Hand, Domestic Dominance, Head of Household where role an order usually is the theme all the way to the most hard core BDSM, twisted edge kink you could conceive, submission remains as the common denominator on some part of the gradient. The BDSM or kink part in its various expressions is where the public gets caught up and we get demonized.

Personally, the age of consent issue is probably one law that needs to by a universal law for a number of reasons. Someone referenced 15 in Sweden. Last time I checked it was 14 with the Dutch, 16 in Canada.

Every group needs a flag and an anthem I guess and this is why I have stayed away from organized anything. I don't want to be a card carrying anything. If any question of the girls age was eliminated from this thread how would it read? "Man spanked woman one too many times?"

As for the argument she doesnt know what she was getting into, give me a break. We are a media saturated world. Unless you are born under a rock and in Sweden sex, unlike our regulated Victorian state, is part of their lives as an open expression, nudity is not a shameful act.

There is a simple threshold: cause permanent damage and you are culprit. If a Dom/Domme scening is such a loser not to know what they are wielding in terms of life energy power they deserve to get thrown under the bus for their own ignorance and stupidity and compromising the rest of us.

(in reply to ranja)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/11/2010 1:58:43 AM

ranja

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quote:

ORIGINAL: whipmaker7

quote:

ORIGINAL: ranjaSo it would be nice if all older and experienced men would respect the young girls... and keep the heavy stuff for later or find a more experienced partner
but alas life aint perfect

Who says he didn't respect her? Maybe it was his experience that she liked.

yes... very likely it was his experience that she liked and it is also very likely that he did not respect her or else there would be no problem possibly?
However it was some lousy phrasing on my part... i meant more to respect her innocence, her inexperience, her youth... not so much respect her as a person... as i suppose the problem might occur when the desire of the the young person is to be disrespected... and then the Dom getting a bit (or a lot) carried way

Also obviously this is just as true for a young boys and older Masters or Mistresses.
Though obviously a bunch of young people together are not past it to do eachother quite some harm either if things get out of hand.

...eta... and old people too... idiots will be idiots
and yes i do think it has to do with a lack of respect

< Message edited by ranja -- 6/11/2010 2:01:00 AM >

(in reply to whipmaker7)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/11/2010 2:13:39 AM

ranja

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Tombeaux i read your post a few times and i am stll not entirely sure what you are saying.

I think the age of consent is 16 in Holand... at least it was when i grew up there... the Dutch have an attitude not to get all uppity about stuff if no one is too bothered though... hence the 'relaxed' stance on drugs too... (it might surprice some that cannabis is still illegal there too)
I was only just 15 when i started my sexual activities and eventhough some of my first encounters where anything but brilliant nobody was upset enough to take things to court.

Sex like anything is a skill that you get better at (hopefully) with practise
nomatter how many movies you have seen or books you have read before hand, i would advice any sex beginner to take things slow and hold the tittie chopping- off for a few years.

(in reply to Tombeaux)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/11/2010 2:53:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

Tombeaux i read your post a few times and i am stll not entirely sure what you are saying.

I think the age of consent is 16 in Holand... at least it was when i grew up there... the Dutch have an attitude not to get all uppity about stuff if no one is too bothered though... hence the 'relaxed' stance on drugs too... (it might surprice some that cannabis is still illegal there too)
I was only just 15 when i started my sexual activities and eventhough some of my first encounters where anything but brilliant nobody was upset enough to take things to court.

Sex like anything is a skill that you get better at (hopefully) with practise
nomatter how many movies you have seen or books you have read before hand, i would advice any sex beginner to take things slow and hold the tittie chopping- off for a few years.

amsterdam is 14, and the dutch are usually baked out of their minds. tittie chopping seems a bit of an extreme overstatement, no? I have seen much, but haven't witnessed tittie chopping. I am not sure what you do not understand if you have a specific line, quote it please. The reason I emphasized your text about exception to an age of consent, in addition to your extremes such as tittie-chopping is because it is within those exceptions that we find ourselves on the other end of the gavel. Words are power, even text transmits resonance and vibration.

When you make statements of exception to the law: "..or maybe just not legal" you are readily demonstrating that your code of conduct is somehow by default acceptable, it is not acceptable. Break a law, pay the consequences. I appreciate it that you demonstrated why in part we take heat. The minute you take exception to the "objective" you have compromised all of us as a whole/collective. Subjective rationale is an entirely different animal. Especially with this life we need to be wise with words and expressions. Again, and with emphasis, there are always those that will press the envelope, if for no other reason than to say they did, including breaking the law.

*Safe*Sane*Consensual*

< Message edited by Tombeaux -- 6/11/2010 3:43:48 AM >

(in reply to ranja)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/11/2010 9:18:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tombeaux
The minute you take exception to the "objective" you have compromised all of us as a whole/collective.

Well said in a nutshell. I find it ironic how many gently outspoken torch and pitchfork types there are among those who identify and/or engage strongly with subculture practices that are either black letter illegal, of dubious legality or considered by one's surrounding village to be "deviant" and "immoral" regardless of adult consent.

The tacit issue in this case—even though the official word is that it's not—is the age contrast. Of this I'm fairly certain. As you have mentioned and laurell3 articulated early on in this thread, the sensationalism of the circumstances is what seems to have given this case any significance at all, and that sensation is serving as the impetus to validate bedroom policing.

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(in reply to Tombeaux)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/12/2010 2:40:12 AM

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So what?
Laws are for the guidance if wise men and the obedience of fools - Voltaire

(in reply to ourmsbetty)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/12/2010 4:47:54 AM

MissBeautiful2U

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subbisherri,

Since the foundation of any bdsm relationship should be consent (amongst other things that go with relationships), the fact that your previous hard limit is now legal might give your dominant a reason to ask about it if you suddenly found yourselves somewhere where it was legal, however as it is a consensually based relationship, it is reasonable that you might still find that it was a hard limit for you. It is not deceit, simply a "I never considered it before because it was illegal-- now that it is legal, it is still something I cannot do." Your dominant accepted you before with that hard limit, so it must not have been THAT critical to him/her that you have it as an aspect of your relationship.

If it is a dealbreaker for the dominant, then the submissive would have to weigh their options-- either submit to it, convince the dominant that it really isnt something that they have to have or move on to another relationship. There is no one right answer.

It is not deceit to say "nothing illegal" as a hard limit without further explanation. I think that simple phrase does wonders to cover things that I might not even think about but not have any desire to do anyway.... and it keeps my list of hard limits (yes as a Domme, I have hard limits as to what I will do to a sub/bottom as well) to a reasonable length... and keeps me from looking really weird as I research all the possible illegal things that could be inflicted upon another just to list them as a hard limit.

just my thoughts

(in reply to subbisherri)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/12/2010 6:51:17 AM

usemetopleaseyou

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In California I can't be legally flogged even with my consent! :(

(in reply to subbisherri)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/12/2010 1:34:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tombeaux
The minute you take exception to the "objective" you have compromised all of us as a whole/collective.

Well said in a nutshell. I find it ironic how many gently outspoken torch and pitchfork types there are among those who identify and/or engage strongly with subculture practices that are either black letter illegal, of dubious legality or considered by one's surrounding village to be "deviant" and "immoral" regardless of adult consent.

The tacit issue in this case—even though the official word is that it's not—is the age contrast. Of this I'm fairly certain. As you have mentioned and laurell3 articulated early on in this thread, the sensationalism of the circumstances is what seems to have given this case any significance at all, and that sensation is serving as the impetus to validate bedroom policing.

Sady though Marc, as it seems you are aware, that's actually how the law in the US works as well. Anything that's controversial is rarely decided on it's merits. Negative facts make bad caselaw. The public alarm on attorneys "getting people off on technicalities" always amuses me because of this.

The reality is that domestic violence in it's true form is still alive and well and was ignored for far too long. Many would argue that some of us are it's byproducts. I don't think we'll have much success making wiitwd legal overall as long as there that slippery slope is so near to dv where consent also is irrelevant.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to MarcEsadrian)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/12/2010 5:25:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Sady though Marc, as it seems you are aware, that's actually how the law in the US works as well. Anything that's controversial is rarely decided on it's merits. Negative facts make bad caselaw. The public alarm on attorneys "getting people off on technicalities" always amuses me because of this.

The reality is that domestic violence in it's true form is still alive and well and was ignored for far too long. Many would argue that some of us are it's byproducts. I don't think we'll have much success making wiitwd legal overall as long as there that slippery slope is so near to dv where consent also is irrelevant.

Agreed. Efforts in discerning between domestic abuse and BDSM would at least be in the ball park, and well in the interests of those involved in both. Unfortunately, I don't see any legal instrument or inquiry possibly ever aiding in that clarity based on merits, nor do I see a serious call for such a thing—especially when courts are more concerned with legislating kink itself based on the controversy of negative fact.

_____________________________

Omnes una manet nox

Founder, Humbled Females

(in reply to laurell3)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/12/2010 5:34:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subbisherri

Well if it's a legal issue then here's a conundrum (for example): as a subbi you express consent contingent upon legal constraints, such as no sex with children or animals. And then you find yourself in a country where animal sex ISN'T against the law. Your original constraint was legal, not moral or just YUCK! so now what do you do? Sure you can defer based on "no frikkin way!" but if that wasn't your original reason, can you now legitimately alter your reasoning? How do you explain to your Dom(me) that maybe it really wasn't legal after all but based on something else, does that make you a liar or something less than honest? NOT judging, just looking for opinions.

Animal sex is legal in the state of Washington. I don't think that a distaste for it makes you dishonest, I do think that basing your limits on the law is a foolish thing to do.

(in reply to subbisherri)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/13/2010 4:42:34 AM

ranja

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tombeaux

amsterdam is 14, and the dutch are usually baked out of their minds. tittie chopping seems a bit of an extreme overstatement, no? I have seen much, but haven't witnessed tittie chopping. I am not sure what you do not understand if you have a specific line, quote it please. The reason I emphasized your text about exception to an age of consent, in addition to your extremes such as tittie-chopping is because it is within those exceptions that we find ourselves on the other end of the gavel. Words are power, even text transmits resonance and vibration.

When you make statements of exception to the law: "..or maybe just not legal" you are readily demonstrating that your code of conduct is somehow by default acceptable, it is not acceptable. Break a law, pay the consequences. I appreciate it that you demonstrated why in part we take heat. The minute you take exception to the "objective" you have compromised all of us as a whole/collective. Subjective rationale is an entirely different animal. Especially with this life we need to be wise with words and expressions. Again, and with emphasis, there are always those that will press the envelope, if for no other reason than to say they did, including breaking the law.

*Safe*Sane*Consensual*

... i just looked it up to be sure, and the age for consent in Holland is 16 for hetero as wel as homosexuals, so you are wrong.

Also i like to point out that Amsterdam is only a city (not even the main capital) and not the country itself...
further more i wish to correct your idea that "the Dutch are usually baked out of their minds" I agree that it might be the case for some of them for some of the time, but certainly not so for all of them usually.
(you said something about being wise with words and expressions?)

... you talk in such a different way than i talk... that is the reason i do not really understand what you say; so again your post is somewhat mumble jumble to me
i am not sure what the "objective" is...
also there is no doubt about it that many people break the law and NOT pay any consequenses
and i do not agree with your statement that somebody who breaks the law makes a 'whole/collective' look bad...
i think it is a personal thing and i do not feel that what i do is bad because a stupid idiot does something rediculous
or that because i might do something stupid the rest of humanity is doomed.

In my opinion some people break the law because in some cases the law is an ass
Some lawyers are the best liers and some judges are incompetent; we work with a flawed system

However i think it is everybodies duty to do the best they can to make the most of this life

(in reply to Tombeaux)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/13/2010 11:45:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tombeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx
In the first world, there is no iron curtain.

Assuming your reference to the "First World" in part includes the United States, you may want to rethink that....

Spoken like a true tea bagger -- a paranoid conspiracy theorist who lives in FLORIDA!

So Mr. Tombeaux, exactly where is this "Berlin wall" you think keeps you hostage in the U.S.?

Denial of passport issuance for an arrest warrant or unpaid child support under 22 CFR 51.70 and 51.72 is NOT an iron curtain. Clearly you have never known somebody from the former GDR. You live in Florida. You can just get in a boat and sail away, without getting shot by border guards. Try doing that as a Cuba or N. Korea citizen.

If you don't like it in Florida, then you are free to leave, and should! Oh, unless you are so antisocial that you are wanted for crimes against others.

The whole point of this discussion is to take personal responsibility for owning one's choice to live under a particular set of laws. Stop whining as a self inflicted victim. Love it or leave it.

(in reply to Tombeaux)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/13/2010 11:58:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ourmsbetty
No, no law in Sweden says thou shall not flog thy partner, but apparently there do not need to be express laws against for there to be prosecutions as they can simply call it assault and or battery.

In the end, it really doesn't matter to you or me. It matters to the people in Sweden.

The situation in the USA is dramatically different. For one, the US Constitution doesn't apply in Sweden.

For another, each case is different from the next.

My point being that discussing one anecdotal case usually isn't very helpful when talking about the general state of the law.

(in reply to ourmsbetty)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/14/2010 12:01:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian
As an aside, I noticed in that article that "an expert on sadomasochism is set to testify at the trial". I had no idea courts recognized experts in sadomasochism. I learned something today, it seems.

One well-known expert witness on BDSM matters is Jay Wiseman; I believe he now does it on a regular basis. He has both medical training, is a lawyer and has several BDSM books to his name as well. So I'd say he would have enough credentials.

(in reply to MarcEsadrian)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/14/2010 7:28:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

In the end, it really doesn't matter to you or me. It matters to the people in Sweden.

The situation in the USA is dramatically different. For one, the US Constitution doesn't apply in Sweden.

For another, each case is different from the next.

My point being that discussing one anecdotal case usually isn't very helpful when talking about the general state of the law.

So it is not wrong if it is happening somewhere far away?

And it is not one case. One is an anecdote, two is coincidence, three is a pattern. I have named 3, in 3 different countries. One of them here in Denver, where I live.

Perhaps if it should happen in your jurisdiction you will be more interested.

(in reply to cadenas)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/15/2010 1:12:46 PM

pantyhoseorgasm

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I think state of mind and health of mind could come into play and the tables could always be turned. Lot of use of the word consent and contract. Was the contract notarized? Even if it was last time I checked slavery was outlawed. If there is actually work involved some labor laws could come into effect.

There was a case in Massachusetts some time ago that really got ugly. The slave died so the domme and her boyfriend cut the body up. An extreme case to be sure but add some sanity with consent. It would even be a bad idea if you're seeking a long term sub that you send them to a psychiatrist 1st. Sounds crazy but a good many people into s&m are just that, crazy.

(in reply to ourmsbetty)

RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? - 6/15/2010 1:14:35 PM

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I generally don't lump myself in with folks who cut up bodies.

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(in reply to pantyhoseorgasm)

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