RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans?

Collarchat.com

Home Login Search

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans?

Page: << < prev 4 5 [6] 7 8 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 10:03:56 AM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Also the tories who are in government plan to sell off the English forests which are reckoned to be worth £761 million

My first thought when I heard about this: for how long are they still going to have the effrontery to keep their current 'green tree' logo? Bloody astonishing.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com

(in reply to Aneirin)

Profile

Post #: 101

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 10:18:21 AM

RapierFugue

Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
US cops carry guns. Last I heard, British ones don't. Assuming that simply the uniform will get enough respect that a gun isn't needed.

The impression I get is that overall, the British tend to follow laws and assume others do as well. We Americans are more prone to think of those that break the rules.

Bit late to this thread, and haven't read the rest, but ...

Yes ... and yet and at the same time ... no.

The exact wording is that “police in England, Scotland and Wales (NI has its own foibles, for reasons I'm sure you can imagine) aren’t routinely armed.
In urban areas there are a large number of “Tactical” units, typically (for large cities like, say, London, Manchester and Liverpool) 10-12 per shift, by Force Area (not 10-12 per Station Area). Each “Tactical” comprises a high-speed car, at least one driver trained to Police Class One (their “pursuit” license, i.e. a highly trained speed driver) and one (or both) will be firearms licensed (typically both). In the boot there is a small arsenal, comprising several handguns (nominally 3 in case of malfunctions, sometimes more), and whatever is that force area’s load-out of higher-powered weaponry. In the Met (London) area, this means 2 x Heckler-Koch MP5s, but in a curiously British twist these HKs are set for semi-auto fire only. In more rural areas there will be fewer Tactical units, but they’re there – this all followed the Hungerford massacre, so that no area of major interest (i.e. not the wilds of Scotland or Wales, for example) is supposed to be more than 20 minutes from Tactical support.

What this means in practice is that, if a crime is committed where a firearm is used, or one in which one is believed to have been used, or threatened to be used, then in a matter of minutes several “Tactical” units will converge on the location, typically controlled via the Met’s main Helicopter Support Unit (has IR cameras, recording devices, etc). If the situation escalates (or looks like it might) then the HSU and/or CAD Room have the authority to call in the central firearms unit, who will turn up in numbers and deploy as required.

So, if you commit a gun crime, the chances are you’ll be staring down the barrel of something unpleasant in a very short period of time, typically 5 minutes or less.

As a nation I don't consider us any more lawful or respectful of the police than the US, especially as public confidence in, and support of, the police is at an all-time low in most major urban areas.

Oh and in most cities of the UK illegal guns are fairly easy to obtain - witness the recent shootings in London by youngsters enforcing their "turf". The thing is though that even possession, let alone use of, an illegal firearm carries a substantial prison sentence, so these idiots usually shoot one of their own kind, then get locked up for a prolonged period of time. This is what I believe is termed "win-win".

< Message edited by RapierFugue -- 1/2/2011 10:19:13 AM >

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Profile

Post #: 102

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 10:47:14 AM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline

quote:

but in a curiously British twist these HKs are set for semi-auto fire only

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
US cops carry guns. Last I heard, British ones don't. Assuming that simply the uniform will get enough respect that a gun isn't needed.

The impression I get is that overall, the British tend to follow laws and assume others do as well. We Americans are more prone to think of those that break the rules.

Bit late to this thread, and haven't read the rest, but ...

Yes ... and yet and at the same time ... no.

The exact wording is that “police in England, Scotland and Wales (NI has its own foibles, for reasons I'm sure you can imagine) aren’t routinely armed.
In urban areas there are a large number of “Tactical” units, typically (for large cities like, say, London, Manchester and Liverpool) 10-12 per shift, by Force Area (not 10-12 per Station Area). Each “Tactical” comprises a high-speed car, at least one driver trained to Police Class One (their “pursuit” license, i.e. a highly trained speed driver) and one (or both) will be firearms licensed (typically both). In the boot there is a small arsenal, comprising several handguns (nominally 3 in case of malfunctions, sometimes more), and whatever is that force area’s load-out of higher-powered weaponry. In the Met (London) area, this means 2 x Heckler-Koch MP5s, but in a curiously British twist these HKs are set for semi-auto fire only. In more rural areas there will be fewer Tactical units, but they’re there – this all followed the Hungerford massacre, so that no area of major interest (i.e. not the wilds of Scotland or Wales, for example) is supposed to be more than 20 minutes from Tactical support.

What this means in practice is that, if a crime is committed where a firearm is used, or one in which one is believed to have been used, or threatened to be used, then in a matter of minutes several “Tactical” units will converge on the location, typically controlled via the Met’s main Helicopter Support Unit (has IR cameras, recording devices, etc). If the situation escalates (or looks like it might) then the HSU and/or CAD Room have the authority to call in the central firearms unit, who will turn up in numbers and deploy as required.

So, if you commit a gun crime, the chances are you’ll be staring down the barrel of something unpleasant in a very short period of time, typically 5 minutes or less.

As a nation I don't consider us any more lawful or respectful of the police than the US, especially as public confidence in, and support of, the police is at an all-time low in most major urban areas.

Oh and in most cities of the UK illegal guns are fairly easy to obtain - witness the recent shootings in London by youngsters enforcing their "turf". The thing is though that even possession, let alone use of, an illegal firearm carries a substantial prison sentence, so these idiots usually shoot one of their own kind, then get locked up for a prolonged period of time. This is what I believe is termed "win-win".

Just out of interest, the armed forces rifles, the SA80 are also set up for semi auto fire although they are capable of fully auto. Same with the older rhino guns, the L1A1 SLR, FN FAL the safety catch on the thing had been modified so the weapon cannot be flicked into automatic, to do that, the gun had to be broken the catch flicked over and the gun closed again. Iguess it is to stop our lot becoming trigger happy and wasting HM governments ammo.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to RapierFugue)

Profile

Post #: 103

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 11:07:25 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

Consider too- how prevalent that drones are. It goes with CCTV, sound cannons and tasers.

(in reply to Aneirin)

Profile

Post #: 104

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 11:22:45 AM

RapierFugue

Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Just out of interest, the armed forces rifles, the SA80 are also set up for semi auto fire although they are capable of fully auto. Same with the older rhino guns, the L1A1 SLR, FN FAL the safety catch on the thing had been modified so the weapon cannot be flicked into automatic, to do that, the gun had to be broken the catch flicked over and the gun closed again.

Sort of. It can't be "directly" flicked to full auto, but the latest versions of the SA80 (L85/SA80/A2) do indeed "prevent" full auto as delivered ... but to "un-prevent" it is the work of about 10 seconds.

So what additional, 10-second procedure do you think our chaps have added to their "prep for patrol" lists? (if they're expecting a punch-up) And quite right too - if some sod's shooting at me I'd want to shove as much metal back their way as humanly possible.

The original SA80 had a slightly different "safety" system ... in that it usually jammed within the first few rounds, thus keeping the enemy nice and safe ;)

(in reply to Aneirin)

Profile

Post #: 105

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 12:29:57 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dragonspinkkitty

All one has to do it research the crime statics to find out that Britain has a higher crime percentage than the US does.

Taking away guns does not stop crime. In fact it lets it increase by preventing law abiding citizens from protecting themselves and each other against violent criminals.

So why are more people murdered in the US than in the UK, or am I missing something here ?

So you agree that the people of the UK are just as violent as those in the US...and only gun laws make the difference....So why not attack the reasons for this violance rather then the ownership of guns?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Politesub53)

Profile

Post #: 106

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 12:35:29 PM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Also the tories who are in government plan to sell off the English forests which are reckoned to be worth £761 million
and that is only 30 % of the forested land in England that are under governmental or local authority control. The other 70% of the forested land is in private ownership and with any luck, I will have a bit in the future.

Well, they've run out of public services that they can sell to the public sector in order to raise the cash to bribe the electorate with tax cuts before the next election, haven't they? They have to find something to sell.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Aneirin)

Profile

Post #: 107

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 2:57:19 PM

peacefulplace

Posts: 157
Joined: 8/22/2010
Status: offline

~FR~

Sorry, but I have anecdotal evidence only.

Among the people I know here in the U.S., gun owners or not, I'd have to say the majority of us secretly like to think of ourselves as bad asses. Yes, even me--deep down, I'm a total bad ass!

Does it make any one of us less likely to be law abiding? I believe that it certainly could contribute to that.

I do not know enough British people to know whether they, too, secretly think they will knock the sh** out of you if they have to, but I will say the general atmosphere has seemed a bit calmer in Great Britian on the occasions I've had to visit. However, like agirl wrote, the comparisons are so difficult and uneven to make that perhaps we shouldn't bother. Really, what do I know of a culture from visiting it 3 or 4 times?

Here's what I wonder though: I own a pink rifle. I wonder if everyone would be so quick to buy a gun if it were flourescent pink.

_____________________________

If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal.
~~Emma Goldman

One thing is clear to me: We, as human beings, must be willing to accept people who are different from ourselves.
~~Barbara Jordan

(in reply to Moonhead)

Profile

Post #: 108

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 3:08:25 PM

RapierFugue

Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dragonspinkkitty
Taking away guns does not stop crime.

Maybe not, but it severely reduces gun crime. There's only so much damage someone can do with a knife.

Look at the statistics, and the vastly higher numbers of people dying from GSW in the US compared to the UK. And I mean per capita.

(in reply to Dragonspinkkitty)

Profile

Post #: 109

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 3:12:30 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dragonspinkkitty

All one has to do it research the crime statics to find out that Britain has a higher crime percentage than the US does.

Taking away guns does not stop crime. In fact it lets it increase by preventing law abiding citizens from protecting themselves and each other against violent criminals.

So why are more people murdered in the US than in the UK, or am I missing something here ?

So you agree that the people of the UK are just as violent as those in the US...and only gun laws make the difference....So why not attack the reasons for this violance rather then the ownership of guns?

Butch

I know reading isnt your strong point Butch but do try and keep up old chap.

1) pinkkitty stated guns stop crimes.
2) I said that if that is the case why are more people murdered in the US than the UK
3) You jumped in and came to your own conclusion, non of which had anything to do with my post.

(in reply to kdsub)

Profile

Post #: 110

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 3:17:53 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Well, they've run out of public services that they can sell to the public sector in order to raise the cash to bribe the electorate with tax cuts before the next election, haven't they? They have to find something to sell.

Brown sold of just about anything else, including the family silver as I recall.

As one prominent Labout MP put it, "More jobs were privatised under New Labour than under Thatcher."

(in reply to Moonhead)

Profile

Post #: 111

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 3:19:35 PM

rfd1

Posts: 53
Joined: 2/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jack45

The brilliant Marvin Harris, one of the world's most noted anthropologists, explained why America has had high violent crime rates compared to UK and Japan, in his seminal work:
America Now: The Anthropology of a Changing Culture. New York: Simon & Schuster. It is all BLUNTLY reported in the chapter: Why There's Terror on the Streets

Professor Harris documented the disparities in a most politically incorrect example of truth-telling.
To observe the social constraints of leftist politicizing of fact, I will merely note that Dr Harris' research revealed that White males, who overwhelmingly made up the gun-owning population, had LOWER violent crime rates, including homicide, than either the English in England or the Japanese in Japan.

Swiss has very liberal gun laws up until recently and had the lowest murder rate in the Western world.
I would think it is clear that demographics are the reason for high rates of violence.
As the US become a 3rd world, by heritage, nation it will be plainly obvious that Mexico's levels should appear here within 15 or so years. It has already started. For a sneak preview of America's future just visit Mexico or South Africa.

(in reply to Jack45)

Profile

Post #: 112

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 3:22:43 PM

RapierFugue

Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rfd1
Swiss has very liberal gun laws up until recently and had the lowest murder rate in the Western world.

A popular myth.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-switzerland.htm

(in reply to rfd1)

Profile

Post #: 113

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 4:07:47 PM

Charles6682

Posts: 1788
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline

I don't think its fair to compare America to a civilized nation like England.If anything,the USA has more in common with Iran and Afganistan!America is run by a bunch of religous weirdos who want to take over the world and force people to believe in "thier" God.Just like Iran.I mean,George Bush Jr would have made a great President in Iran.They have the same ideas,just a different religion.

_____________________________

Charley aka Sub Guy

http://www.Facebook.com/SubGuy

https://Twitter.com/SubGuy6682

(in reply to rulemylife)

Profile

Post #: 114

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 4:11:00 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline

Ahmadinejad is also quite a quirky character.

_____________________________

Memory Lane...been there done that.

(in reply to Charles6682)

Profile

Post #: 115

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 4:18:46 PM

RapierFugue

Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682
I don't think its fair to compare America to a civilized nation like England.If anything,the USA has more in common with Iran and Afganistan!America is run by a bunch of religous weirdos who want to take over the world and force people to believe in "thier" God.Just like Iran.I mean,George Bush Jr would have made a great President in Iran.They have the same ideas,just a different religion.

On the one hand, your posts are as moronic in content as ever. There's no truth in what you say about the UK (note UK, not "England") being inherently more "civilised" than the USA. None whatsoever. I can show you town centres in poorer parts of Britain on a Friday & Saturday night which resemble Sodom & Gomorrah, as just one example of many. I'm British and even I wouldn't claim my country is inherently any more "civilised" than the US. Cultural, possibly. Better at cricket, almost certainly (although you never know with the England team), but inherently more civilised? Tosh.

On the other, I note a refreshing lack of apostrophes in your post. Ok so there are now a few missing, but it's somehow less offensive to the eye than your usual technique of going "bippety boppety BACON!" and sprinkling them all around.

So, in summary, you're still an idiot, but a marginally less irritating one.

Well done you. Happy New Year and a gold star :)

(in reply to Charles6682)

Profile

Post #: 116

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 4:19:50 PM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

If anything,the USA has more in common with Iran . . . .

Not in terms of gun ownership. There were 5.3 guns per 100 residents in Iran in 2007, compared to 5.6 for UK residents and 90 for Americans. Just saying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gun_ownership

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 1/2/2011 4:25:03 PM >

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com

(in reply to Charles6682)

Profile

Post #: 117

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 4:19:54 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dragonspinkkitty

All one has to do it research the crime statics to find out that Britain has a higher crime percentage than the US does.

Taking away guns does not stop crime. In fact it lets it increase by preventing law abiding citizens from protecting themselves and each other against violent criminals.

So why are more people murdered in the US than in the UK, or am I missing something here ?

So you agree that the people of the UK are just as violent as those in the US...and only gun laws make the difference....So why not attack the reasons for this violance rather then the ownership of guns?

Butch

I know reading isnt your strong point Butch but do try and keep up old chap.

1) pinkkitty stated guns stop crimes.
2) I said that if that is the case why are more people murdered in the US than the UK

Uhhhh, because murder isnt the only crime?

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Profile

Post #: 118

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 4:23:12 PM

RapierFugue

Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
As one prominent Labout MP put it, "More jobs were privatised under New Labour than under Thatcher."

"PFI is not the worker's friend".

I.e., despise her though I did, at least Thatcher called a spade a spade. She looked at stuff the nation owned, and said "we're flogging those fuckers off for cash ... and FFS keep Dennis away from the gin!".

As opposed to the NuLabour PFI frenzy, which is just privatisation by the back door*.

*in both senses of the word - "we've been anally penetrated, and not in the good way".

(in reply to Politesub53)

Profile

Post #: 119

RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 4:31:01 PM

Charles6682

Posts: 1788
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline

Rapeher,I forgot.There are still a few morons in England.I forgot you were still around.

_____________________________

Charley aka Sub Guy

http://www.Facebook.com/SubGuy

https://Twitter.com/SubGuy6682

(in reply to RapierFugue)

Profile

Post #: 120