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French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/23/2011 9:11:30 AM

Owner59

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http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/23/world/europe/france-armenia-genocide/index.html

Turkey's leader accused France of "genocide" last century during the war in Algeria, a ratcheting up of rhetoric over controversial French legislation that would criminalize any public denial of what the bill calls the Armenian genocide last century in Ottoman Turkey.

"In Algeria, an estimated 15 percent of the population had been subjected to the massacre of French from 1945 on. This is genocide," Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said during a conference in Istanbul on Friday.

"Algerians were burnt en masse in ovens. They were martyred mercilessly. If French President Mr. (Nicolas) Sarkozy does not know about this genocide, he should ask his father Paul Sarkozy. His father Paul Sarkozy served as a soldier in the French legion in Algeria in 1940s."

Once a French colony, guerrillas in the North African nation fought a bloody war against French rule from 1954 to 1962.

Turkey is angered over the bill, passed by the French National Assembly on Thursday and now under review by the French Senate. Immediately after the vote, Erdogan announced that Turkey is reviewing its ties with France.

He said Turkey is recalling its Paris ambassador to Ankara for consultations, is canceling bilateral visits, and won't cooperate with France in joint projects within the European Union.

It is also halting "political consultations" with France, stopping bilateral military activities and joint exercises, and canceling permission granted annually for all military overflights, landings and take-offs.

Erdogan hopes the Senate fails to pass the so-called Armenian genocide bill but he warns that if it does, Turkey will initiate more measures toward France.

The Turkish-Armenian controversy over the massacres of last century has reverberated wherever diaspora communities representing both groups exist.

Armenian groups and many scholars argue that starting in 1915, Turks committed genocide, when more than a million ethnic Armenians were massacred in the waning days of the Ottoman Empire.

The Republic of Armenia has hailed the French move.

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Post #: 1

RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/23/2011 9:25:13 AM

DomKen

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Turkey must eventually face the facts of history. Their ancestors did engage in genocide against the Armenian minority.

(in reply to Owner59)

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RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/23/2011 10:46:00 AM

kalikshama

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But modern-day Turkey officially denies that a genocide took place, arguing instead that hundreds of thousands of Armenian Christians and Muslim Turks died in intercommunal violence around the bloody battlefields of World War I.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 3

RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/23/2011 10:50:02 AM

kalikshama

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

Holocaust denial is illegal in a number of European countries.[1] Many countries also have broader laws that criminalize genocide denial. In addition, the European Union has issued a directive to combat racism and xenophobia, which makes provision for member states criminalising Holocaust denial, with a maximum prison sentence of between one and three years. Also, the Council of Europe's 2003 Additional Protocol to the Convention on Cyber Crime, concerning the prosecution of acts of a racist and xenophobic nature committed through computer systems includes an article entitled Denial, gross minimisation, approval or justification of genocide or crimes against humanity, although this does not have the status of law. Of the countries that ban Holocaust denial, a number (Austria, Germany, Hungary, and Romania) were among the perpetrators of the Holocaust, and many of these also ban other elements associated with Nazism, such as Nazi symbols.

(in reply to Owner59)

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RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/23/2011 10:55:10 AM

kalikshama

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_denial

The denial of the Armenian Genocide is the assertion that the Armenian Genocide did not occur in the manner or to the extent described by scholarship. Denial of the Armenian Genocide is forbidden in some countries. The Armenian Genocide is widely acknowledged by genocide scholars to have been one of the first modern, systematic genocides,[1][2] as many Western sources point to the sheer scale of the death toll as evidence for a systematic, organized plan to eliminate the Armenians.[3]

...According to historians, while there is debate about its exact circumstances, "there can be no doubt about the fact of [Armenian] genocide itself. In this sense, the denial of the Armenian genocide is very similar to the denial of the Holocaust of the Jews."[7]

(in reply to kalikshama)

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RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/23/2011 11:35:54 AM

Aswad

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The French want mind control.
The Turks want history revised.
Sun rises and sets like yesterday.

Did I miss something?

Vaguely reminds me of congress holding the budget hostage, just more serious.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to kalikshama)

Post #: 6

RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/23/2011 11:59:52 AM

popeye1250

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And "Political Correctness" was custom made for Anal Retentives.

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RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/23/2011 4:45:03 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And "Political Correctness" was custom made for Anal Retentives.

Just let the world be bigoted arseholes right pops ?

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 8

RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/24/2011 1:02:00 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And "Political Correctness" was custom made for Anal Retentives.

Just let the world be bigoted arseholes right pops ?

Polite, there you go again,....."the world?"
How's about we just "let the world be" and not try to force our way of thinking on them?
If, say the Czeck Rep. or Norway want to be,....."bigoted arseholes" what business is that of the,....."politically correct arseholes?"
There's a lot to be said for minding your own business.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 12/24/2011 1:37:44 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/24/2011 4:11:38 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Polite, there you go again,....."the world?"
How's about we just "let the world be" and not try to force our way of thinking on them?
If, say the Czeck Rep. or Norway want to be,....."bigoted arseholes" what business is that of the,....."politically correct arseholes?"
There's a lot to be said for minding your own business.

Theres a lot to be said for being able to talk about other races/faiths without slinging insults as well.

People can either ignore this, or speak up on it, I prefer to speak up.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 10

RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/24/2011 6:32:13 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

Theres a lot to be said for being able to talk about other races/faiths without slinging insults as well.

People can either ignore this, or speak up on it, I prefer to speak up.

Of course we don't have to speak up.

Instead, we could go back to the 'Good Old Days' when women knew their place was the kitchen, the bedroom and the labour ward, blacks knew to go straight to the back of the bus, queers didn't dare show their faces for fear of having their faces violently re-organised and nice middle class white folk, especially males, could gratuitously insult anyone who didn't resemble nice middle class white folk at their leisure ......

That's the past as it was. Apparently some people regard this as "minding your own business" and pine for the return of those days ..... no need to point out why is there?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/24/2011 6:34:56 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/24/2011 6:53:34 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

Holocaust denial is illegal in a number of European countries.[1]

it is on a lot of message boards too.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to kalikshama)

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RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/24/2011 6:56:24 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

nd not try to f

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And "Political Correctness" was custom made for Anal Retentives.

Just let the world be bigoted arseholes right pops ?

Polite, there you go again,....."the world?"
How's about we just "let the world be" and not try to force our way of thinking on them?
If, say the Czeck Rep. or Norway want to be,....."bigoted arseholes" what business is that of the,....."politically correct arseholes?"
There's a lot to be said for minding your own business.

but thats not the deMOBcratic way, you create one shoe fits all statutes, and 51% can vote to fuck and rape your ole lady and take the property of the reamining 49%

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 13

RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/24/2011 11:02:44 PM

Aswad

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Yeah, that's actually the problem with most models of democracy... the 51/49 bit.

"Democracy is three wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner."

Or, in a more colorful analogy, modern democracies allow you to vote on whether you'll take it up the ass, in the mouth, or (where applicable) the vagina. There's no option to vote not to get screwed. This is not the process of making a compromise between the interests of the people participating in the vote, but rather a question of who wins the bid for power, with everyone else having lost. In a compromise, most participants do not lose, and most participants win something.

The simplest resolution is to implement a parliamentary democracy wherein one casts one vote and one countervote. The votes qualify for the finals based on the number of available seats in the parliament (e.g. if there's 100 seats, the cutoff point is 1% of the votes). Those who make it to the finals are adjusted by countervotes, then the seats are allocated. For instance, someone representing the first choice of 30% of the population, and being the most opposed by 50% of the population, should not have 30% of the seats, obviously (yet that is what they get in conventional models). Similarly, someone representing the first choice of 10% of the population, yet being opposed by none, should have at least those 10% and probably more (which is what would happen after everyone has been adjusted for countervotes, perhaps landing them 20-30% of the seats). Parliament then does the usual thing of electing ministers and such. An analogy could be made for the U.S. system, as well, of course.

That's a compromise in practice.

It's even been suggested up here, but the vote was blocked by Labor, which is the first choice of about a third of the population, and despised by over half the population, to the point where most people I know vote based on what gives the greatest likelihood of ousting Labor, not what will best represent their overall interests. By contrast, the Liberal Party is the second choice of about 60% of the population, and opposed by almost none, but "strategic" voting results in them getting a net 5% of the votes. Changing the system would move them back into the "realistic candidate" category, probably resulting in the second election in this system giving them a total of 30-40% of the votes with under 10% of the countervotes, and a subsequent coalition with the Fiscal Conservatives that would effectively represent well the interests of about 80% of the population, compared to the present government (a Labor dominated coalition) that represents the interests of about 30% of the population and has the rest split between rage and apathy. Getting rid of the autocratic Labor party would be almost as valuable as the actual increase in fairness itself.

Of course, no sane politician will ever provide an outlet for dissatisfaction or dissent.

Hence, the 49% will always wear the collar of the 51%.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Real0ne)

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RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/24/2011 11:17:51 PM

tazzygirl

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Even the US doesnt officially recognize the event.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/25/2011 2:29:14 AM

Aswad

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"The event" ?

Is that what we call such things now?

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 16

RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/25/2011 5:58:53 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Even the US doesnt officially recognize the event.

The President of the US disagrees
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Statement-of-President-Barack-Obama-on-Armenian-Remembrance-Day/

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 17

RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/25/2011 7:55:23 AM

tazzygirl

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This is what I was referring too, Ken...

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=hr112-304&tab=related

H. Res. 304: Affirmation of the United States Record on the Armenian Genocide Resolution
112th Congress: 2011-2012
Calling upon the President to ensure that the foreign policy of the United States reflects appropriate understanding and sensitivity concerning issues related to human rights, ethnic cleansing, and genocide documented in the United States record relating to the Armenian Genocide, and for other purposes.

RELATED LEGISLATION
OTHER LEGISLATION WITH THE SAME TITLE

The list below shows legislation in this and previous sessions of Congress that had the same title as this resolution. Often bills are incorporated into other omnibus bills, and you may be able to track the status of provisions of this bill by looking for an omnibus bill below. Note that bills may have multiple titles.

111th Congress: S. Res. 316Dead
111th Congress: H. Res. 252Dead
110th Congress: H. Res. 106Dead
109th Congress: H. Res. 316Dead
106th Congress: H. Res. 596Dead

This is as close to "official recognition" as the US has gotten..

Text of H. Res. 306: Urging the Republic of Turkey to safeguard its Christian heritage and to return confiscated...

HRES 306 EH
H. Res. 306
In the House of Representatives, U. S.,
December 13, 2011.
Resolved, That it is the sense of the House of Representatives that the Secretary of State, in all official contacts with Turkish leaders and other Turkish officials, should emphasize that Turkey should--
(1) end all forms of religious discrimination;
(2) allow the rightful church and lay owners of Christian church properties, without hindrance or restriction, to organize and administer prayer services, religious education, clerical training, appointments, and succession, religious community gatherings, social services, including ministry to the needs of the poor and infirm, and other religious activities;
(3) return to their rightful owners all Christian churches and other places of worship, monasteries, schools, hospitals, monuments, relics, holy sites, and other religious properties, including movable properties, such as artwork, manuscripts, vestments, vessels, and other artifacts; and
(4) allow the rightful Christian church and lay owners of Christian church properties, without hindrance or restriction, to preserve, reconstruct, and repair, as they see fit, all Christian churches and other places of worship, monasteries, schools, hospitals, monuments, relics, holy sites, and other religious properties within Turkey.
Attest:
Clerk.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=hr112-306

If there is a bill that passed recognizing the Armenian genocide, I didnt find it.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 18

RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/25/2011 9:29:00 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Polite, there you go again,....."the world?"
How's about we just "let the world be" and not try to force our way of thinking on them?
If, say the Czeck Rep. or Norway want to be,....."bigoted arseholes" what business is that of the,....."politically correct arseholes?"
There's a lot to be said for minding your own business.

Theres a lot to be said for being able to talk about other races/faiths without slinging insults as well.

People can either ignore this, or speak up on it, I prefer to speak up.

Well gee Captain Couragious, that's mighty magnanamous of you.
Yeah, I suppose we could send troops to those "bigoted arseholes" countries like Nigeria where a muslim sect just blew up a catholic church last night killing 25 or let the local police handle it.
So,...you'll be speaking up on this like the riots in France two years ago?
Last time I checked it wasn't "illegal" to insult a "religion." Why would it be? There is no "requirement" to "respect" any religion.
Hey! Maybe you and your friends could resurect the old "Abraham Lincoln Brigade!" And go from country to country making sure the people there were, ..."politically correct!"
Do you own a sword? It doesn't have to be a real one, just something you could swing at windmills.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 19

RE: French PC thought control law not working out to well - 12/25/2011 12:21:13 PM

Politesub53

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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Well gee Captain Couragious, that's mighty magnanamous of you.
Yeah, I suppose we could send troops to those "bigoted arseholes" countries like Nigeria where a muslim sect just blew up a catholic church last night killing 25 or let the local police handle it.
So,...you'll be speaking up on this like the riots in France two years ago?
Last time I checked it wasn't "illegal" to insult a "religion." Why would it be? There is no "requirement" to "respect" any religion.
Hey! Maybe you and your friends could resurect the old "Abraham Lincoln Brigade!" And go from country to country making sure the people there were, ..."politically correct!"
Do you own a sword? It doesn't have to be a real one, just something you could swing at windmills.

I partly agree, it sure is swinging at windmills trying to educate some people. Why anyone feels it is okay to sling racial slurs around is beyond me.

Does something have to be illegal just to make people act like grown ups ?

Just an update on the sword, the pen is mightier, swashbuckling sailors are old hat.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 20

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