Collarchat.com

Join Our Community
Collarchat.com

Home  Login  Search 

RE: Beating a transsexual's ass


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Beating a transsexual's ass Page: <<   < prev  3 4 5 6 [7]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Beating a transsexual's ass - 2/8/2012 11:06:30 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Yaknow, tweaks, I would love to see someone test the hypothesis tested on monotheistic cultures vs polytheistic and their attitudes towards transgender and gay people. There could be a Master's thesis in sociology in there somewhere. I think you're on to someting.


A friend of mine already did an MA thesis on this topic back in the 1980s. Her name is Roberta Perkins, a well-known transgender and sex worker activist here. I can't find it on the Net. If you like I can check with Roberta to see if we can somehow get it posted.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
As for your claim that we can't escape things that are biologically hardwired. We can and do every day.
I mean if I'm armed and someone pisses me off, do I shoot them? No. I'm a reasoning human. Biological hardwiring says get rid of the competition and irritants. Reasoning and logic says to use diplomacy first and force last. That's the difference between humans and dogs. Otherwise, it wouldn't be safe for a pretty woman to walk down the street.


I'm not sure that " we can't escape things that are biologically hardwired" is the claim I made. I would certainly agree with the statement: "If we are biologically hardwired, this hardwiring can be and often is over-ridden by social factors or individual choice". What I did say was that theories of biological/sociobiological causation of transgender behaviour don't work. Why?

Transgender occurs where there is a radical disjunction between biological sex and the way a person sees themselves and lives in terms of social gender. So biological causation cannot apply, except through establishing 'abnormal' developmental pathways. It's only a short step from that to "deviance/perversion/policing' of transgender behaviour. Which is precisely the history of transgender. And precisely what transgenders and the rest of us need to escape from.

The real problem here is the cultural assumption that biological sex is binary, and that a person's sex and gender should be congruent and determined by biological sex within a binary paradigm. This assumption is invalid. Yet this is the foundation assumption underlying all conventional investigation of sex, gender and sexuality.*

At my university, these (biological causation) theories are taught in Gender Studies streams as the "Naturalist Fallacy". I doubt if there's a Gender Studies degree anywhere in the world where these theories are treated any differently. Once we accept that transgender behaviour is as valid as any other gendered behaviour, transgender behaviour makes some of the most compelling evidence available against any notion of biological or socio-biological causation of any gendered behaviours.

* I have presented evidence and argument to support my claim in the "Where does gender come from?" thread at http://www.collarchat.com/m_3959134/mpage_1/tm.htm

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/8/2012 11:25:23 PM >


_____________________________



(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Beating a transsexual's ass - 2/9/2012 5:51:47 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

As for your claim that we can't escape things that are biologically hardwired. We can and do every day.
I mean if I'm armed and someone pisses me off, do I shoot them? No. I'm a reasoning human. Biological hardwiring says get rid of the competition and irritants. Reasoning and logic says to use diplomacy first and force last. That's the difference between humans and dogs. Otherwise, it wouldn't be safe for a pretty woman to walk down the street.
You're sure about that huh?

There is a fairly large distinction between suppressing an urge and not having that urge to begin with.

And, it's still a very long way from any kind of evidence that people are hardwired to hate on homosexuals or TG's specifically, you havn't even gotten off the ground with that yet, and believe me, for every argument you advance, Occam's razor is waiting for it. 

You may wish to consider that if you're going to argue that, you'll also have to argue that racism is "genetic", misogyny or misandry is "genetic", etc.

I don't think so. The capacity for categorical hatred is something humans do appear to exhibit quite frequently, and it is a sort of behavioral adaptation for which at the very least, alleles exist to facilitate, the visceral response is being generated, particular proteins expressed, but a highly specific response to a highly specific stimuli that in no way affects, or has anything directly to do with survival or reproductive potential is highly unlikely, and the existence of masses of people who are not bothered by any of these things the least little bit and never experience this alleged biological they're supposed to suppress is pretty powerful evidence for social forces over genetics, you'll have to account for that too.

Social forces tend to be softwired rather than hardwired, but it often amount to roughly the same thing, social forces can even overcome biological urges, though often with unpleasant side effects, the stres sof social forces can kill you, so calling it a social force does not necesarily diminish it's impact on behavior.

What is true is that we adapt, and once having adapted, it becomes increasingly difficult to re-adapt to something different, that appears to be a biological algorithm, but what you are adapted to is largely arbitrary.


_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Beating a transsexual's ass - 2/9/2012 4:23:53 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I've often wondered how it must be for those who desire trans people sexually.


In my experience, offline they're either taken or not looking, while online they assume you're conflating the reality of TS and IS people with the trendy porn fantasy of shemales. I actually used to read some boards by and for the IS crowd, for instance, so I'd like to think I have a grasp of the difference between fantasy and reality. (For that matter, most of the porn seems to be about catering to bi men who can't face being bi.)

Now, I'm not in the market for a romantic attachment, but I wouldn't exclude the possibility if I were. As it is, my interest is from the angle of "exotic woman", and that's something I would like to explore in the sexual arena. A TS or IS person would also be a candidate for M/s without the romantic side. However, it doesn't seem very likely to happen, particularly given the rather limited number of people in my home country.

But, yeah, it does seem to generate some flak, and I imagine it would be difficult for someone with a much stronger (or even exclusive) attraction to TS and IS individuals to pursue that interest. Or maybe I just rub them the wrong way (pun not intended). I dunno.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Beating a transsexual's ass - 2/9/2012 4:25:38 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Thank for the link tazzy!


Most welcome Master Orion!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Beating a transsexual's ass - 2/9/2012 4:39:53 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

The example of Native Americans and Two Spirited is a good example of indigenous attitudes towards gender bending, excellent evidence against there being any natural inclination to discriminate against gender bending - and native American cultures were highly territorial, competitive and warlike - but there is a distinct difference between friction over hunting territory and organized warfare for abstract goals


This needs to be cleared up.

The Basics

Many Native American Tribes have three, five, or even seven genders.

These duel-sexed people, or "two-spirited" are seen without stigma and considered emmisaries from the Creator. They are treated with deference and respect, even considered sacred.

They are sacred for many reasons, not the least of which being that they embody both Mother Earth and Father Sky. They may be found as a vital part of almost any ceremony involving the entire band. They "hold both a masculine and feminine heart within their souls, and therefore twice the power."

As androgyne beings, it is thought that they are better able to be fair -- seeing into the hearts of both males and females. They are often called on to play the role of mediator.
In regards to duty, relationship and dress, physical sex is not important. The "spirit" is the determinate.

"Two-spirit" is the closest thing to an appropriate umbrella term for referring to these gender traditions among Native peoples. However, even "two-spirit" is contested in modern usage.

Cultural Misunderstandings

The Western/European worldview is fundamentally different from Native perception. The Western/European worldview is dominated by dualistic/binary thinking (e.g. male-female). Native perception is not. Native perception typically insists that all things are connected, whereas Western approaches focus on independence. We (westerners) are being racist when we try to cram Native experience into Western categories.

There is no universal singular Native tradition. There is a great deal of diversity among Native nations in respect to gender diversity. Overgeneralizations about "the" tradition is another way we (westerners) display our shallow approach to Native experience.Not all tribes had a "berdache" tradition. The Iroquois and some other nations had a strong warrior expectation with no room for sissies.

"Berdache" remains a term used by many anthropologists, but is considered (by many Native Americans) to be a European, racist slur, indicative of a long history of Native oppression at the hands of European colonists (who never took the time or interest to understand Native culture on its own terms).

Each Native nation (i.e. each with its own language) would have a specific term (and practice) which referred to those we (westerners) might call "other-gendered."

Sexual/Gender Misunderstandings

Western cultural and moral terms do not apply. Equating Western categories with these Native practices and understandings tends to result in racist and homophobic expressions -- simplifications which allow us to avoid really listening to the alternative assumptions found in Native cultures.

To the Western mind, "two-spirited" persons would be "other-gendered" -- i.e. neither male nor female. However, the worldviews are so different that there is really no comparable category that applies directly.

Because such Native persons are not considered male or female, they cannot be rightly categorized as "homosexuals." Such labels were applied inappropriately by European colonists.

Such Native persons are not "transexuals." They are not trapped in the "wrong" body. From a Native perspective, they represent a natural and accepted gender identity within the created order.

Such Native persons are not "crossdressers" or "transvestites" -- their dress was culturally appropriate for their given gender identity and not considered transgressive within Native culture.

"Transgendered" is the closest western concept that would apply. However, "transgender" implies some crossing over of the gender dualism -- a dualism which does not exist in the Native worldview. "Other-gendered" has the same problem, in that it assumes "male" and "female" as normative. In addition, "transgendered" fails to communicate the sacred role affiliated with such individuals in Native cultures.

Western Misappropriation of "two-spirit"

Because Western culture can be so oppressive, it is easy to rush towards other cultural traditions which appear more enlightened. But we are still responsible for our actions. We who know what it is like to be misunderstood, labeled and re-presented by others in regards to gender identity, should appreciate the similar experience of Native people in regards to cultural experience.

Because these sacred traditions are integral to very specific cultural traditions, it is wrong to appropriate Native terms for general use in Western settings. It is important to respect the fact that Native and Western cultural presuppositions differ so drastically that we need an altogether different term for those of us who would claim a similar sacred role (as othergendered -- i.e. not male, not female, with sacred significance) within Western culture(s).

I offer "OtherWise" as a functional Western alternative, which does not misappropriate sacred Native traditions.

Native Americans are burdened with sustaining their culture(s) in the face of Western Imperialism. It is our burden as Westerners to transform our own culture -- beginning with ourselves.

Making Amends

Native Americans owe us NOTHING. Our culture's spiritual poverty is our own responsibility to explore and address creatively.

Our first task is to be silent. We must learn how to listen. Even (especially) to the rage. Without imposing our own definitions. Without rushing to conclusions or defense.

By listening deeply and not rushing to apply our own categorical explanations, we begin the second task -- which is to taking responsibility for the damage done by our own ancestors as well as by us. We must own our own histories.

In claiming our past, we open ourselves to the future. Our third task is to be about the work of transforming our own culture from its very roots.

And when we have done our own work in earnest, let us begin it again.

Modern Manifestations

Ultimately, it is the perogative of Native Americans to define themselves. Some terms used include "two-spirit," "transgendered Native American," and GAI (Gay American Indian).

But because these folks exist within affirming and accepting Native cultures (and also because they play sacred roles), often they will not identify publicly at all. For most, engaging in Western identity politics is simply not on the agenda.


http://www.angelfire.com/on/otherwise/native.html

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Beating a transsexual's ass - 2/9/2012 6:38:06 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
Thank you for that clarification tazzygirl. You are perfectly correct to point out the dangers inherent in sloppy cross-cultural comparisons. A gender system within a culture can only be fully understood within the context of that culture as a whole.

Given that, what can be inferred from the anthropological evidence in this discussion? One observation that can be made is that gender systems are characterised by their diversity. This means that the binary system of gender operative in Western cultures is simply one of many possible systems. It is not more nor less 'natural', neither better nor worse, neither superior nor inferior to any other gender system. It's simply one variation on a theme.

The totality of the anthropological evidence points compellingly towards the conclusion that gender is a human construct/invention. Gender systems operate in every known culture, and each system has its own version of maleness and femaleness at its root, though we should be careful to note that what might be considered male in one culture can be considered female in another. In other words, universals only apply at the abstract level.

These realisations can be liberating and progressive. Acknowledging the social basis of gender frees us from the canards that gender is natural, fixed or immutable, binary and given in the order of things. Any given gender system might operate just as efficiently and effectively as any other.

Most importantly it frees us from the obligation to follow the gender system we have inherited, as feminism has long insisted. This is a giant leap forwards, not only for transgender people, but for everyone, male female and all the other genders too. This is one of the reasons why the status of transgender people is so important for everyone interested in developing a more equitable gender system, and people interested in developing a more liberal regime of sexual expression (ie. all kinksters!).

Ultimately the evidence and data from transgenders, when it's considered on an equal weighting with all the other evidence and data, has the potential to revolutionise our understandings of sex gender and sexuality. That can only be to all our benefits.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/9/2012 6:47:22 PM >


_____________________________



(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Beating a transsexual's ass - 2/9/2012 8:31:43 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
I think, and I really feel I am getting into the deep end here, that we can, on a higher level, rise above the gender biases, even the biases of there being only two genders.

However, on a primitive level, I believe there will always be an undercurrent.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Beating a transsexual's ass - 2/9/2012 9:13:29 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
quote:

In regards to duty, relationship and dress, physical sex is not important. The "spirit" is the determinate.


Eloquently put.  Thanks for quoting that Tazzy.


_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Beating a transsexual's ass - 2/9/2012 10:41:22 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I think, and I really feel I am getting into the deep end here, that we can, on a higher level, rise above the gender biases, even the biases of there being only two genders.

However, on a primitive level, I believe there will always be an undercurrent.

You may well be right.

However, it is worth noting just how quickly ideas become deeply entrenched in culture. For example, the concept of homosexuality - the idea that a person attracted to the same gender was a particular class of person, that a person might 'be' homosexual rather than merely indulge in homosexual behaviour - wasn't developed until late into the 19th century. It was first defined c1870, and the word didn't enter the dictionary until c1890.

Yet look at the degree to which this concept has been accepted by Western culture today ... a little under 150 years later. Similarly look at the rapid spread and influence of third wave feminism and gay lib, both of which date from the late 1960s. Notions of people as having sexual identities and gender identities are also pretty modern. So beliefs and attitudes can change fairly quickly in this area.

There's plenty of grounds for optimism.

_____________________________



(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Beating a transsexual's ass - 2/9/2012 11:35:49 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Dont forget the Iroquois tribe did not accept "sissies". Leading me to believe it wasnt the sexual act that was disturbing as much as the feminine actions of men. The natives were very big on men acting like men... but dont mistake that for the western belief of the same.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Beating a transsexual's ass - 2/10/2012 4:25:44 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
I do disagree with tweak in that I believe gender is biological, gender systems on the other hand, are largely social.

But we went through that in the other thread.


_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Beating a transsexual's ass - 2/11/2012 11:04:51 AM   
hausboy


Posts: 2360
Joined: 9/5/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Dont forget the Iroquois tribe did not accept "sissies". Leading me to believe it wasnt the sexual act that was disturbing as much as the feminine actions of men. The natives were very big on men acting like men... but dont mistake that for the western belief of the same.


Hi Tazzy
You are correct--I've worked with 22 different tribes in my last job (out west) and each one had very different values, customs and beliefs--and really ran the gamut when it came to beliefs about sexuality, gender roles, masculinity, etc. Some very rigid in their beliefs and quite unaccepting of gays/transfolk.   The most accepting tribal members that I met were from Lakota-Sioux, who referred to me as a "winkte" and at a sweat lodge ceremony, I was given a special duty as a honor. (I disclosed to them I was trans because I hadn't had top surgery at that time, and wanted permission from them to leave my t-shirt on once inside the sweat)



(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Beating a transsexual's ass - 2/11/2012 11:09:08 AM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline
Interesting hausboy!
My previous dude grew up with Sioux folk on a reservation here; i'd never heard of the term "winkte" until he told me. It's fascinating, but I think a sign that this has always existed in some form or another and isn't some modern "thing" like some people tend to assume.

_____________________________

Midwestern Girl

"Obey your Master." Metallica


(in reply to hausboy)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Beating a transsexual's ass - 2/12/2012 11:02:46 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

This is a bit off topic but it shows just how far trans ppl have come in the past few decades.

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life/male-mother-sex-change-man-gives-birth-20120213-1t075.html

_____________________________



(in reply to LillyBoPeep)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Beating a transsexual's ass - 6/9/2023 3:09:31 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
Bumping for a friend to find

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Beating a transsexual's ass - 6/12/2023 5:19:02 AM   
ncslaveonknees


Posts: 23
Joined: 2/19/2019
Status: offline
to quote a song....it was long ago, it far away, so much better than it is today....

i remember being on the other side of this equation. 4 on the floor, being spanked into oblivion, writhing, reveling, and wincing. then yes having my ass ravaged and pillaged. being conquered and taken.


(in reply to ResidentSadist)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Beating a transsexual's ass - 8/29/2023 8:15:49 AM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
By your tone, I can see it was a fond memory. :)

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.


(in reply to ncslaveonknees)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Beating a transsexual's ass - 11/2/2023 3:50:15 AM   
gharna


Posts: 1
Joined: 7/7/2020
Status: offline
I'm not a transsexual. just became interested in feminization late in life and been dressing up a little, alone and on cam.

I fantasize being spanked. Not real pain, only enough to get my cheeks pink and make me feel submissive.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)
Profile   Post #: 138
Page:   <<   < prev  3 4 5 6 [7]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Beating a transsexual's ass Page: <<   < prev  3 4 5 6 [7]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2024
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.547