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RE: "a true master" - 10/29/2004 12:18:04 PM

jillwfsub4blkdom

Posts: 375
Joined: 7/2/2004
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Jenn,
i agree with you. i thought the use of pronoun capitalization was the norm. i also thought the reference was expected.

Secondly, i have never looked for a "bad guy" as a Master. Those types scare the hell out of me lol.

Everyone sets their own goals. i would hate to list mine in a public forum to have them be torn apart as right or wrong. my goals are definitely not suitable for everyone or what everyone is seeking. i applaud John for allowing them to be published.

jill

_____________________________

"It's the moment that transcends
Our physical into a more spiritual level of understanding" - Musiq

(in reply to subbiejenn)

RE: "a true master" - 10/29/2004 3:58:08 PM

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnGalt

Regarding the typographical convention of capitalizing Man and Master, is it not the general rule here to capitalize the pronouns of the dominant, regardless of gender? Just about all the communications I've come across capitalize the dominant as His, Him, Her, She, the One, etc etc. I've also seen the extreme case where both cases are used, as in Oour, and Wwe to indicate both the dominant and the submissive as a unit. I'm surprised that someone who reads my list and sees the capitalization used would assume that it's an attempt to 'fluff up' the author.

No, it's not a rule here at all, nor is it common among those I've known over the past couple of decades, unless they were primarily cyber oriented. The majority of people I've encountered who do wiitwd realtime have little/no use for these types of online conventions. It's generally seen to be a sign of an online wannabe among those I've known. Good grammar is always a good choice.

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to JohnGalt)

RE: "a true master" - 10/29/2004 4:29:08 PM

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Joined: 10/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SherriA

No, it's not a rule here at all, nor is it common among those I've known over the past couple of decades, unless they were primarily cyber oriented. The majority of people I've encountered who do wiitwd realtime have little/no use for these types of online conventions. It's generally seen to be a sign of an online wannabe among those I've known.

Interesting. The two posters prior disagree with your assessment. I'm not sufficently concerned to do a formal survey counting posts to determine the 'common usage' objectively. I might ask a submissive under consideration to do a count for me sometime in the future. If I do, I'll be sure to post the results.

Regarding the accusation of being an online wannabe, I've been in the real-life scene for over 20 years, with a full time submissive for 8. Her career has led her to move out of state, and so I'm exploring CollarMe.com as an avenue for meeting new people.

I'm curious... The way you refer to 'cyber oriented' and 'online wannabe' leads me to infer that you believe that there cannot be genuine feeling or relationships in cyber. I've never subscribed to the opinion that the mode of expression constrains the value of the relationship. It is the relationship itself that is paramount. The love letters between John and Abigale Adams are tributes to just how deep and passionate a long distance relationship can be. Words on paper, carried by horseback, with a four week round trip. The Internet of their time.

I would not dismiss someone as a wannabe, simply because they are seperated from their partner.

John

(in reply to SherriA)

RE: "a true master" - 10/29/2004 4:38:23 PM

Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline

quote:

*WOW* i am amazed at the course this thread has taken.

Me too!! I never intended to open a can of worms like this. My intention on starting this thread was just to point out a list that i thought was a pretty nice way to describe caring dom.

quote:

Personally i like Your profile John (picture doesn't hurt either *grins*) and i see nothing wrong with Your ideas of a "true Master".

Thank you for agreeing with me jenn. I like his pic too.

quote:

First, I didn't post this list to start the thread. Someone read my profile, liked what I said, and asked permission to post it in the forum. I granted that permission, following up for curiousity's sake more than anything else. The "garnering acolades" comment is specious.

John, i'm sorry if i put you on the spot here.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan

(in reply to subbiejenn)

RE: "a true master" - 10/29/2004 4:40:09 PM

Posts: 544
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnGalt

Interesting. The two posters prior disagree with your assessment. I'm not sufficently concerned to do a formal survey counting posts to determine the 'common usage' objectively. I might ask a submissive under consideration to do a count for me sometime in the future. If I do, I'll be sure to post the results.

I said common *among the people I've known*, and nowhere did I profess to know everyone everywhere. I was simply stating MY experience, not suggesting yours needs to be the same.

quote:

Regarding the accusation of being an online wannabe, I've been in the real-life scene for over 20 years, with a full time submissive for 8. Her career has led her to move out of state, and so I'm exploring CollarMe.com as an avenue for meeting new people.

You're reading way too much into what I said. I was stating *my experiences* and expressing the *general* attitudes of the people I associate with, not making accusations toward you or anyone.

quote:

I'm curious... The way you refer to 'cyber oriented' and 'online wannabe' leads me to infer that you believe that there cannot be genuine feeling or relationships in cyber. I've never subscribed to the opinion that the mode of expression constrains the value of the relationship. It is the relationship itself that is paramount. The love letters between John and Abigale Adams are tributes to just how deep and passionate a long distance relationship can be. Words on paper, carried by horseback, with a four week round trip. The Internet of their time.

Yep, that's reasonably close to accurate. Without significant time face to face, in the same room, with regular contact, I don't think a "significant" relationship can develop. Of course, we all define significant relationships differently and have different requirements in that regard. I don't have significant relationships with people whose eyes I can't look into, whose body language I can't read, whose energy I can't sense when s/he is near.

I talk to a lot of people online. Some of them I consider acquaintances. They never attain the label "friend" until we've spent time across a table from one another and had a chance to *really* assess what's what, without the filters of a text-only medium to muddy things.

quote:

I would not dismiss someone as a wannabe, simply because they are seperated from their partner.

I don't think I was suggesting that you should. Just because I don't consider a relationship that exists only in cyber space and has *no* actual contact to be legitimate doesn't mean that you have to feel the same way.

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to JohnGalt)

RE: "a true master" - 10/29/2004 5:07:55 PM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
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Somebody (I'm c&p-ing from the previous page, no insult intended)

quote:

it really is very sad that we have so many cynical folks around here. Nothing wrong with a list of goals an individul wants to attain or values someone deems important. Too bad folks are so judgemental and demeaning makes you wonder what goals they wish to attain.

I don't htink it's cynical to dislike something that claims to say what a "true" anything is. I have no problem with this list as a list of stuff individuals might like in a partner, but when it's billed as being about a "true" master/mistress/whatever that I begin to resent it. In fact, if something claims to describe a true anything, I pretty much go into it wanting to dislike what it says.

Who gets to define true? Why does the author feel they have anymore claim on a given identity than anyone?

So, sure, if it were just a list of goals, more power to 'em. But I don't like anyone who puts a claim on absolute truth

Orig: JohnGault

quote:

Regarding the typographical convention of capitalizing Man and Master, is it not the general rule here to capitalize the pronouns of the dominant, regardless of gender?

No, and thank god it's not or I'd probably not be here.

To me, capping someone's name indicates a very spesific type of respect, which I don't give to anyone except my partner. Non-standard capping to me is like putting "Sir" or "Ma'am" before all those who claim dominance online. Too, I work pretty hard on making sure that my typing online is such that I could transplant it into an essay and have it fuction. Tis the English major in me.

Well, that and my partner adamantly dislikes it and doesn't want me to use it. 's nice to have justification :)

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to SherriA)

RE: "a true master" - 10/29/2004 5:52:50 PM

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Joined: 5/23/2004
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Holy cow! I recently said to someone that I really like participating in the fora discussion at collarme (as opposed to a different site) because, as a general rule, the participants did not jump off the deep end into flaming, i said/he said/shesaid - or did not say - nasty arguments. I said that people may disagree, but generally all is fairly friendly and attacking is a rare event. The discussion here (I have found) may go a little off topic, but most people are reasonable, and even funny - a great place to participate.

What the hell happened!?! She calls me this evening and, of course, having taken my advice to try this site, this is the first thread she reads. Of course she looked at others and we both decided that some people woke up on the wrong side of the bed and others just need naps or chocolate or something...

It seems to me that EVERY one of us could agree that we each have a different view of D/s, M/s BDSM - personalized and individualized to fit and meet our own needs. Lightening strikes and we find someone with complimentary and compatible needs and desires and - TADA! - a match - hopefully it works out and sometimes not -

Given that there is discussion ad nasuem about our individual and unique ideas, etc. why such a problem here? The word true - this is like a Palovian bell for some sending them on rants and raves when what is under discussion is what is true for ONE man. We may agree - or not. Or is it about the Pavlovian bells of "true"?

My personal philosophy of how D/s works is sure to be different from the philosophy of others. Neither is wrong - just different. My personal ideas and philosophy about submission - mine specifically - is certain to be different from others. My philosophy is about me, what is inside of me, that to which I aspire and that of which I dream. It's possible that another may agree or have a similar idea - but neither is right and neither is wrong - ONLY DIFFERENT. My definition and philosophy and my submissive nature and what I seek in a dominant partner is TRUE - it is true to me, for me. To say it is "true" does not lessen the value of another's "true" ideas/desires/dreams/aspirations.

Perhaps a bit of reconditioning - or at least disagreeing with attacking - so that every time someone says "true" people do not begin to salivate. Or perhaps it is the full moon?

To find or write a philosophy that articulates such a siginificant aspect of who a person is seems a grand and wonderful thing. The bravery to say so publicly - grander still.

I have to wonder how many of us can point to a BDSM philosophy that helps to define and to clarify what we think/want/seek/need/desire.

newflowers

P.S. - I'm stoked - I've got handcuffs!!!

< Message edited by newflowers -- 10/29/2004 5:53:33 PM >

(in reply to proudsub)

RE: "a true master" - 10/29/2004 6:08:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subbiejenn

i was surprised at this ... This is something that i thought was the "norm". i know in forum i am not strict on the "rule" but i have never thought of it as a bad thing in anyway but one showing respect for a Dominate. Anyone else feel like Sherri does?

Just to clarify...I respect *people* who have come to deserve it, not roles (especially not verbs!). Personally, I've found at least as many people who self-identify as submissive or switch or sadomasochist to be as deserving of respect as those who identify as dominant. I suppose I simply don't understand the rationale of singling out one particular role as deserving of some arbitrary sign of respect over all others, based on nothing more than his/her self-proclaimed role.

There's no way I'm aware of in a realtime interaction to indicate that type of capitalization scheme, but that doesn't mean that people don't respect others, hm? Whether I say You or you, it all sounds the same. And is saying "I think He is a lying piece of scum sucking shit and I wouldn't piss on His head if His hair was on fire!" respectful just because I added in some capitals?

It just makes no rational sense to me. *shrug*

< Message edited by SherriA -- 10/29/2004 6:09:19 PM >

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to subbiejenn)

RE: "a true master" - 10/29/2004 6:12:44 PM

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: proudsub
I never intended to open a can of worms like this. My intention on starting this thread was just to point out a list that i thought was a pretty nice way to describe caring dom.

And you did just that - pointed out what you thought was a nice description. But you also asked for people's opinions on it, and we gave them. Some (many?) of us disagreed with you. That doesn't make your opinion any less valid; it simply makes it different from those that some of the rest of us hold. It's not a right or wrong scenario, as far as I can see.

< Message edited by SherriA -- 10/29/2004 6:13:00 PM >

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to proudsub)

RE: "a true master" - 10/29/2004 6:31:44 PM

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From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: newflowers

Holy cow! I recently said to someone that I really like participating in the fora discussion at collarme (as opposed to a different site) because, as a general rule, the participants did not jump off the deep end into flaming, i said/he said/shesaid - or did not say - nasty arguments. I said that people may disagree, but generally all is fairly friendly and attacking is a rare event. The discussion here (I have found) may go a little off topic, but most people are reasonable, and even funny - a great place to participate.

I agree with you! I had liked the intellectual level of debate here also until this thread. People became nasty and judgemental. When I pointed out to one of those people, not in an overly nasty way, that they were also guilty of being judgemental, said person sent me a nasty letter. It is sad that a few people can bring down the tone of such a useful resource as this forum. Extreme emotion to the point of running someone down or sending hate mail doesn't belong in such a place. I'd hate to see this forum turn into the useless backbiting type of thing you see everywhere else. Yes, we all have opinions. They can be stated without pointed personal attacks. Anyone who is so insecure that any time someone disagrees with them, it is an attack against them, shouldn't be putting themselves into a place where honest debate is going to take place.

_____________________________

Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
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(in reply to newflowers)

RE: "a true master" - 10/29/2004 11:58:49 PM

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Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Good subject proud
This subject brought out
Mens opinions which is
hard to wrangle outta em
sumtimes.

JohnGalt
You are a Masterpeice
in progress! I as One
Dominant to Another
Like what I see. Dont let
others hollow opinions
sway You even for a
moment from Your
direction! I use the
Dominant cap/sub-slv
small case here online
as well to accentuate
My meanings of role
and position and teach
those around Me the same.

(in reply to Suleiman)

RE: "a true master" - 10/30/2004 12:03:51 AM

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sherriA
your rational only makes sence to you.
but thats OK.....
LOL

JMO

(in reply to MistressDREAD)

RE: "a true master" - 10/30/2004 8:55:26 AM

Posts: 11766
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quote:

The way you refer to 'cyber oriented' and 'online wannabe' leads me to infer that you believe that there cannot be genuine feeling or relationships in cyber.

Johnny Johnny Johnny,

I won't speak for Sherri, but I believe that statment to be true. Genuine feelings can occur, but they are not a relationship. It's a self hypnotic state. Cyber is a great place to meet, but it's no place for a relationship. An interpersonal relationship anyway.

PS - Based on that picture are you some kind of "rocket scientist" or something?

(Sorry - couldn't help myself!)

(in reply to JohnGalt)

RE: "a true master" - 10/30/2004 11:47:50 AM

jillwfsub4blkdom

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newflowers,
very well said.

jill

_____________________________

"It's the moment that transcends
Our physical into a more spiritual level of understanding" - Musiq

(in reply to newflowers)

RE: "a true master" - 10/31/2004 9:59:51 PM

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Joined: 6/4/2004
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(Wow...I'm gone for a few days and lookit what happens...)

I'm in agreement with SherriA in that the whole capitalization phenomenon seems to have originated somewhere online. (Along with the whole Y/you, H/him, H/er, I/it "thing".) I know that I have also lasped into bouts of "chatese" from time to time, but for the most part I try to maintain some form of discipline when speaking (or typing) the English language. (Not perfectly, as I seem to be the Patron Saint of Typos...but I do try.) I don't believe that there is a rule that dictates who receives capital letters, and who does not.

I don't agree with everything in JohnGalt's profile, but then...I dont have to agree with it. I don't like the idea of someone defining what a "true" anything is, as it appears that anything else is then false or fake in some way. I also understand that these are his perceptions of what a true master is. Ok... I can deal with that..he has made that point very clear.

Speaking as one of the "cynical folks" I think that if any of us posts an opinion, it becomes open to scrutiny. We all have different ideas on how we see the world and our community so there will be differences of opinions. Some of the feelings we have about someone elses opinion may get very heated. Ok. I don't see any problem in that. The problem comes in when we make personal attacks on that person. I haven't seen any such attacks in this thread. I think theres a huge difference between saying that you think an idea is flawed or wrong and saying that a person is flawed or wrong for having the idea.

Bottom line... I believe that if someone posts here, they (and/or their supporters) should have skin thick enough to handle the opposing opinions that may follow.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to SherriA)

RE: "a true master" - 11/1/2004 6:32:07 AM

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Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Bottom line... I believe that if someone posts here, they (and/or their supporters) should have skin thick enough to handle the opposing opinions that may follow.

i agree with You 100% here *smiles*

i am sure the whole capitalization thing did come about as a online thing and i learned and started off online so this is what i was told showed respect in a way. i do now have "real life" experience but still chat a lot online also... i don't use the O/Our W/we kind of thing ( i have before though - i do always capitalize when referring to a Dom/Domme) but i do not see anything wrong if someone does. To me, some use it, some don't no big deal to me either way and doesn't define to me who they are as a Dom/Domme - sub/slave etc...(not saying You do Thorns just my opinion -- only posted in reply to You because of the quote above.)

JMO

_____________________________

~Subspace is my perfect paradise vacation from busy-mind... blessed be to the Dominant who can stamp my ticket there.~

"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away"

(in reply to MrThorns)

RE: "a true master" - 11/1/2004 9:50:05 AM

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Hello all,

This will be my last post on the topic. I have a theory regarding why this thread became so unusually volatile, and I must take full responsibility for it.

Grammatical issues of capitalization aside, I believe that the reason for the volatility of the thread is my use of the word 'true' and my tone of intransigence.

I hold a philosophy that there is an objective reality. Those words like good and evil, true or false, are not relative, soft, ambiguous concepts. I hold that asking "Who gets to decide what is 'good?'" is the equivalent to asking, "Who gets to decide the speed of light?" Truth, and good are not things that get to be decided, rather they are things to be discovered and understood.

The modern climate of "everything is ok, everything is relative, knowledge and certainties are impossible" is largely the intellectual offspring of the philosophy of Immanuel Kant. Kant holds that knowledge and reason are invalid tools, simply because your view of the world is shaped by your senses.

I hold with the Aristollean view, that there is an objective reality, that no amount of wishing or good intentions can change it, that you cannot have your cake and eat it too, and that there are no contradictions. A contradiction is an admission of a flaw in either your worldview or your reasoning. The proper thing to do is revise either one until you’ve addressed the contradiction.

Words have specific meanings that are frequently lost in today’s politically correct environment where truth and accuracy are often sacrificed to protect someone’s feelings. I choose to use words as precisely as I am able, without regard to someone else’s offended sensibilities. This thread is a clear example of what can happen when such an attitude is displayed publicly.

In only one case, was the list in my profile questioned with sincerity. I replied in kind, citing examples, which I believe satisfied the questioner, as that line of challenge was dropped. The rest of the critical messages read, at their heart, "How dare you state that something is 'true'? Don't you mean ‘true for you?’" No. I don't mean 'true for me.' I don't claim to think for you, I don't require that you share my view, but I do not water down my observations of the universe, simply because they don't fit in the current social niceties.

There are absolutes, and far more of them than is currently fashionable to admit. No amount of wishing will change that boulder into a meal. Try to live by eating it, and you will starve and die. Your belief system doesn’t matter; the result is provably the same. All your religions, your evasive philosophies, your conscious unwillingness to face unpleasant facts conspire to rob you of the ability to deal with the world as it is. A is A, and it doesn’t matter if you acknowledge it or not, the reality remains unchanged.

The same is true of dominance and submission. There are rules, not decided by some person, not laid down by some spooky supernatural being, but rules of nature. If you're into breath play, and you deprive your submissive of oxygen for longer than her body can stand, she will die. If you deprive her of her emotional and intellectual needs, the same result occurs. My list doesn’t declare what the needs of the submissive are, simply that the master be aware of, and provide for them. Let me state it flatly, “A true master takes care of his submissive. A false, evil and wrong master ignores the needs of his submissive, and ultimately kills her body, or her spirit as a human being or both.”

If you want my reasoning behind inclusion of any of the items in my list, simply ask. If you can find flaws in the list, please, present them to me. I'm not threatened by other people’s evaluations. All I ask is that you be rational. "It feels wrong to me." isn't an argument. More often than not, it's an admission of being unwilling or unable to think the matter through.

I remain,

John Galt

(in reply to subbiejenn)

RE: "a true master" - 11/1/2004 11:16:59 AM

Posts: 549
Status: offline

Well, I don't think things are as simple as being "black or white" , "good or evil", "right or wrong." Thinking that everything (concepts) are "concrete" and "absolute" is the pitfall of most randanistas/randroids. (I'm just poking fun. . .not harm intended! ;)

Til the thread got "philosophical" I was neither for or against it. I was indifferent. (See how things aren't always in binary opposition? There are "gray" areas. . .) If someone wants to have a list of traits that exemplified what they considered a "true master". . .fine. But perhaps the tone that "I am logical and rational. . .therefore I have a special insight on what is true or not" is what put people off.

quote:

The modern climate of "everything is ok, everything is relative, knowledge and certainties are impossible" is largely the intellectual offspring of the philosophy of Immanuel Kant. Kant holds that knowledge and reason are invalid tools, simply because your view of the world is shaped by your senses.

Where exactly did Kant say that? In the Transcedental Analytic? Transcedental Dialectic??? I think that you are merely quoting what Rand said without reading the Critique yourself. Kant said that we can know the HELL out of phenomena. . .but will know NOTHING about neumena.

With your list of what a true master is, you fall more into being Platonic that Aristotalian. All these seeming qualities that participate in the "true master" form.

quote:

A false, evil and wrong master ignores the needs of his submissive, and ultimately kills her body, or her spirit as a human being or both.

No matter how you chalk it up, feelings are never true or false. They just are. So when someone feels as though a master is right for them. It isn't true or false. . .it just is. Only propositions can be true or false.

quote:

“A true master takes care of his submissive. A false, evil and wrong master ignores the needs of his submissive, and ultimately kills her body, or her spirit as a human being or both.”

Sounds like a resounding universal to me!!! You might be more Kantian than you think

Jules

_____________________________

A pig's pussy is still pork, just like a bull's balls are still beef.
Click here to visit my site

(in reply to subbiejenn)

RE: "a true master" - 11/1/2004 4:34:56 PM

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Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
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M. Jules-

I am so glad I read your post before responding- I was going to say much of the same, but likely, not so well.

I gnash my teeth. It is sooo cruel of you to be so lovely, so damn brillant, and a domme. Aggrh. final proof that god is toying with me.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to GoddessJules)

RE: "a true master" - 11/1/2004 4:48:13 PM

stef

Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
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'God' toys with all of us, get in line :)

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to topcat)

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