RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (Full Version)

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angelikaJ -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/27/2016 8:58:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets


quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
So, are you talking about women who get chicken pox when they are pregnant or moms who get chicken pox as adults


While what you're saying is true, I was saying that moms (or anyone) with Shingles gives it to infants (where it shows up as Chickenpox).

Same virus.

The only thing different is the immune response.


Which is why I asked you this:
quote:

or moms who develop shingles as adults?





DocStrange -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/27/2016 2:30:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets
Heh heh ... someone comes out and irresponsibly recommends "get the vaccine" and I simply explain that usually only those at high risk (usually very young and very old) are medically recommended to get this Herpes Zoster vaccines, and then you come out and tell me I'm ignorant of the varicella zoster virus and the immune reaction to it.


What I said is the Shingle can have serious complications and provided the medical links to the Mayo Clinic stating those facts. And I am not sure how it is irresponsible to get the vaccine to those at risk when it is recommend by the CDC, WHO, most doctors, and the rest of the medical community .

quote:

I wouldn't recommend a vaccine for a disease you're not gonna die from.
Certainly I wouldn't recommend a vaccine for a disease that is so common that it simply is an annoyance (e.g., like the flu, or shingles).


This is the the ignorant statement I was referring to. Shingles can cause you to lose your eye site, cause permanent nerve damage ect, neurological problems (link previously provided). Very ignorant to say the virus is only a simple annoyance. It just show you were very unaware of the impact Shingles can have. And you are trying to give medical advice to something you did not know about. Very irresponsible of you.

quote:

How much do you know about immunology?
While I've obviously taken years of it, let's just summarize that you won't get Shingles unless your immune system lets it come out from the affected dorsal root ganglia.
That's immunology in a nutshell.

While the leading theory for the reactivation of the shingle virus is thought to be immune related it has not be proven yet. And does not explain the 5% of those who get the disease who are not older and have no immune-depression. If you have solved this issues please let CDC and medical community know. They would love to here from someone who has solved this problem.
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/health/healthguide/esn-shingles-expert.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.emedicinehealth.com/shingles/page2_em.htm




crumpets -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/27/2016 3:22:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange
What I said is the Shingle can have serious complications and provided the medical links to the Mayo Clinic stating those facts.

There is nothing wrong with you saying that.
In fact, that's responsible.
Notice I also provided links and references from the same web site, the recommendations for people older than 60, for example.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange
And I am not sure how it is irresponsible to get the vaccine to those at risk when it is recommend by the CDC, WHO, most doctors, and the rest of the medical community .

There is where the question of your reading comprehension comes into play.
I assumed people here were recommending the vaccine merely because the disease is dangerous and uncomfortable.
It sure SOUNDED like that.
If they were ... that's irresponsible.

A lot of medical professionals determine the target audience, and both of us quoted the same Mayo Clinic reference which clearly stated the at-risk population being 60 and over.

BTW, since I've studied immunology and virology, I know that this recommendation is only a summary for laypeople.
The real summary is far more complex (but it's not for laypeople since, clearly, laypeople have trouble with the simplest of summaries, as you've so aptly shown).

The reason I know it's just a summary is because people with immune disorders are almost certainly also on that list, as might be at-risk medical professionals, and quite a few others (which is the way it is with almost all vaccines).

But, normally those recommendations DO NOT INCLUDE perfectly healthy people.
They just don't.

You wanna know why?
(HINT: It's not that the insurance company won't pay for it either...).

quote:

I wouldn't recommend a vaccine for a disease you're not gonna die from.
Certainly I wouldn't recommend a vaccine for a disease that is so common that it simply is an annoyance (e.g., like the flu, or shingles).


quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange
This is the the ignorant statement I was referring to. Shingles can cause you to lose your eye site, cause permanent nerve damage ect, neurological problems (link previously provided). Very ignorant to say the virus is only a simple annoyance. It just show you were very unaware of the impact Shingles can have. And you are trying to give medical advice to something you did not know about. Very irresponsible of you.

Heh heh ... think about what you just said.
Think hard.
Really hard.

If Shingles was, statistically, so dangerous, and the vaccine statistically relatively safe in comparison, then THE MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS would be the ones recommending the vaccine.

The medical profession weighs and balances medical pros and cons constantly when they make their recommendations.

QUESTION FOR YOU (I realize this is a tough one for you to handle because it entails a modicum of basic logic.):
Do the medical professionals recommend everyone get the vaccine?
Yes No (circle one)

THOUGHT QUESTION:
If the medical professional does NOT recommend EVERYONE get the vaccine, then do you think it's responsible for YOU to recommend everyone get it? (Think about that before you answer.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange
While the leading theory for the reactivation of the shingle virus is thought to be immune related it has not be proven yet.


Heh heh .... now you sound so expert that you can cut and paste from a document. Wow. You are smart!

Let me tell you something about the immune system. It's complex. In fact, it's complex as all hell. Then, let me tell you something about the Herpes family of viruses. They're persistent. They're persistent as all hell.

The two battle it out every single day.

The battle starts before you're even born, and it lasts until the day you lose the battle, and they bury you so that you don't infect other people.

Sometimes the virus wins ... sometimes the immune system wins ... where this battle seesaws back and forth every day of your entire life.

For you, it's apparently a novel shock that the virus gets the better of the immune system for a while. For me, it's old hat. Happens all the time.

There's nothing surprising whatsoever in a Herpes virus secondary (or even tertiary) outbreak in any one individual. It's how things work.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange
And does not explain the 5% of those who get the disease who are not older and have no immune-depression.

Where are you going with this?

Are you, singlehandedly, compiling all the statistics on Herpes Zoster infections on the planet, and then, again singlehandedly, calculating in your head the various pros and cons, and then, again single handedly, you're gonna make a recommendation that flies in the face of common medical wisdom that is taught to every doctor, microbiologist, and immunologist on the planet?

Is that where you're going with this line of reasoning?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange
If you have solved this issues please let CDC and medical community know.


Heh heh ... do you know how stupid you are?
I didn't solve this conundrum.
It was taught to me four decades ago!
The recommendations haven't changed since I learned them.
You see, I can "read" and, what's more, I can "comprehend" that which I read.

Here it is again, since you don't seem to be able to read, nor comprehend that which you read.
[image]https://i.imgur.com/3w0bBhR.gif[/image]
For you to recommend otherwise is simply irresponsible.



DocStrange -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/27/2016 4:53:53 PM)

Now don't get your panties all up in a twist. I am sure someone will believe you.

PS increase your font size some more. It helps with you sph problem.



crumpets -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/27/2016 7:15:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange
Now don't get your panties all up in a twist. I am sure someone will believe you.


All I'm saying is that for a layman to recommend that perfectly healthy people who are not in the medically-recommended group for getting the vaccine, get the vaccine, is irresponsible.



shiftyw -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/27/2016 8:50:21 PM)

Crumpets- Stand down OP feels stressed and bad enough without someone badgering her on here.

Peppermint- You're in my thoughts, I hope Gary feels better soon, healing thoughts headed your way. My dad got shingles a few years ago- they spread from his face and then DOWN HIS THROAT. He was in a scary amount of pain, and could barely speak at the time. But he recovered and still plays and sings music- so I'm hoping Gary recovers in a similar manner. All my love!



DeviantlyD -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/28/2016 11:43:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

One of my undergraduate degrees was in microbiology


I'm curious (but what else is knew) what other degrees do you have? Was your micro degree in med micro or just microbiology in general?



crumpets -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/29/2016 12:18:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw
Crumpets- Stand down OP feels stressed and bad enough without someone badgering her on here.


I'm only pointing out that it's irresponsible for anyone to recommend that everyone get the vaccine.



crumpets -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/29/2016 12:25:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD
I'm curious (but what else is knew) what other degrees do you have? Was your micro degree in med micro or just microbiology in general?


What else is knew?
<shakes head in dismay>

One of my undergraduate degrees is in microbiology, which, at my particular college meant a combination of bacteriology, virology, parasitology, immunology, physiology, and a host of other studies that all "biologists" take (such as inorganic and organic chemistry, physics, calculus, botany, marine biology, cellular biology, biochemistry, etc.).

My other undergraduate and graduate degrees are in other fields wholly outside of the biological sciences.



DeviantlyD -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/29/2016 12:32:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

One of my undergraduate degrees was in microbiology


I'm curious (but what else is knew) what other degrees do you have?



DeviantlyD -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/29/2016 12:40:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

One of my undergraduate degrees is in microbiology, which, at my particular college meant a combination of bacteriology, virology, parasitology, immunology, physiology, and a host of other studies that all "biologists" take (such as inorganic and organic chemistry, physics, calculus, botany, marine biology, cellular biology, biochemistry, etc.). .

<snip>



I am surprised you took physiology within the scope of a generalist in microbiology since it really is a broad field extending far beyond the pathogenic variety where physiology could be useful. Did you take it as an option class?

I still remember a med micro class I took because of its rather long name...mechanisms of pathogenicity in bacteriology...what a horrible class!

Edited to correct typo. Heh. The dangers of thumb typing. ;)



DeviantlyD -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/29/2016 12:44:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets


quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange
Now don't get your panties all up in a twist. I am sure someone will believe you.


All I'm saying is that for a layman to recommend that perfectly healthy people who are not in the medically-recommended group for getting the vaccine, get the vaccine, is irresponsible.


You really aren't saying that.



crumpets -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/29/2016 2:06:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD
I am surprised you took physiology within the scope of a generalist in microbiology since it really is a broad field extending far beyond the pathogenic variety where physiology could be useful. Did you take it as an option class?

Actually, I took physiology at the local medical school, because my girlfriend at the time was going there and taking the same class.
So my physiology was "medical physiology".

One thing I learned, which shocked me at the time, was how complex our regulatory mechanisms were, and specifically how they exhibited hysteresis (e.g., overshoot, ringing, oscillation, harmonics, etc.), just like electrical and mechanical systems do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD
I still remember a med micro class I took because of its rather long name...mechanisms of pathogenicity in bacteriology...what a horrible class!


Yeah. That's how it works. I just grabbed a few off my shelves and snapped a picture for you of their representative titles.

Most of these textbooks are named boringly simple things, such as "Microbiology" (all 1500 pages of it!) or "Genetics" or "Biochemistry", or even, "The Foundations of Parasitology":
[image]https://i.imgur.com/5tgqdUv.jpg[/image]

But some have more descriptive titles such as "The Normal Microbial Flora of Man" (where we intimately followed, for example, the bacteria of the vagina from before birth, through infancy, to puberty, and beyond to menopausal changes, just by way of example.):
[image]https://i.imgur.com/pCO8EtP.jpg[/image]

While those that would have aided most in this discussion were probably "The Pathogenesis of Infectious Disease" & "Essential Immunology":
[image]https://i.imgur.com/LIHZdCI.jpg[/image]

Interestingly, if I bring out my graduate school books, you wouldn't recognize any connection, because my graduate work was in totally different fields. Go figure.

I wonder if the topic of this book is the root cause?
[image]https://i.imgur.com/reXfOjb.jpg[/image]





DeviantlyD -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/29/2016 2:23:57 AM)

Wow, you're older than I thought!

Why are you avoiding my other question?



crumpets -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/29/2016 2:55:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD
Why are you avoiding my other question?


My other degrees are in business administration and electrical engineering... but I don't want to say too much because I'm probably nearly unique.



Staleek -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/29/2016 4:49:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD
Why are you avoiding my other question?


My other degrees are in business administration and electrical engineering... but I don't want to say too much because I'm probably nearly unique.



I don't know crap about business administration, or business at all.

However, I do know the difference between a macrophage and a neutrophil, as well as being able to calculate the reactance, impedance, and resonant frequency of an AC circuit containing a capacitor and inductor. So you're probably not all that unique.

I'd just like to put some information into this topic regarding vaccinations. There appears to be two sides to the great vaccination debate.

1. The mysticism crowd of loons who think that vaccines are "unnatural" and somehow deadly dangerous, cause autism, bowl disease etc.

2. The followers of the new religion of scientism who think that everyone should take as many drugs as possible because of the powah of science!

Both are wrong. People should get vaccinated against diseases when we have a working, effective, and safe vaccine available for that disease. Unfortunately, in the case of varicella (the disease that causes shingles) we do not have such a vaccine.

Varicella, or chickenpox, is considered a harmless childhood illness, and for the most part it is. Complications can occur and they can be life threatening or merely unpleasant (shingles is one such complication). However, when you contract chickenpox as an adult you become 20 times more likely to die from the disease and 15 times more likely to be hospitalized due to the disease.

Not fun. So we should vaccinate against it, right?

Nope. The vaccine in question only lasts maybe a decade or so, then you are wide open to catching it. So being vaccinated for this disease as a child makes you far more likely to contract it as an adult when it is far more likely to be dangerous.

That's right folks, the varicella vaccine makes you MORE likely to become seriously ill from the disease.

http://www.mofirst.org/issues/vac/published_article_no_1.pdf

This next article is a peer reviewed scientific study on the NIH, it isn't some whack job waving crystals around.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3759842/

"► In 2000, varicella incidence dramatically declined to 70% of the prevaccine rate. ► HZ reports significantly increased among adults aged 20–69 years from 2000 to 2001. ► Children with a prior history of varicella demonstrated HZ rates similar to adults. ► By 2002, the efficacy of the varicella vaccination had declined well below 80%. ► HZ morbidity costs have exceeded the cost savings from varicella-disease reductions."



Cell -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/29/2016 4:58:23 AM)

Asperger's is pretty interesting. For one, because so many people I find interesting seem to have it! I really should read up on it myself one day.



crumpets -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/29/2016 6:57:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cell

Asperger's is pretty interesting. For one, because so many people I find interesting seem to have it! I really should read up on it myself one day.


There's a thread on it over in Health & Safety:
- What is it like dealing with a kinky Asperger's partner?

Some say a cat is akin to an asperger's dog.
However, everyone is different who is in the Autism spectrum, but I'm mildly affected in that I've never been diagnosed.

One thing that is quite common is that Aspergers miss visual social cues that everyone else takes for granted.
Also, Aspergers people often tell the truth, even when they shouldn't; in fact, they tell someone they're right as much as they tell 'em they're wrong - and they mean it both times (unlike many others).

They call a spade a shovel, and don't dance around the issue.

To the point here, they very often delve extremely deeply into a variety of interests, one at a time, and therefore become extremely knowledgeable in anything they attack. Nobody can handle detail like an Aspie can.

However, they don't suffer fools well, as a rule. There isn't much daintiness in how they handle idiots.

Yet, some (like me) are easily led, by those who are superior to me (I respect authority, and especially feminine authority, which is something I've studied but haven't been able to figure out yet).
[image]https://i.imgur.com/jnBKPLQ.jpg[/image]



crumpets -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/29/2016 7:06:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek
I don't know crap about business administration, or business at all.

I had trouble with it, as I do all 'soft" sciences, particularly micro-economic theory.
In fact, the basic supply and demand curve seemed like total bs to me, but now, only many years later, do I revere it.
Organizational behavior was a bit easier for me to fathom, but all of business, excepts statistics and business law, was very different than the hard sciences.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek
However, I do know the difference between a macrophage and a neutrophil, as well as being able to calculate the reactance, impedance, and resonant frequency of an AC circuit containing a capacitor and inductor. So you're probably not all that unique.

You used the words "reactance" and "impedance", which, had you just looked up basic electricity, you wouldn't have seen.
Same with macrophages, those hungry little buggers; so you're in the same crowd.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek
Not fun. So we should vaccinate against it, right?

Nope.


You've researched it recently more than I have (I was merely working off my stored knowledge), but we come to the same result.
If the medical profession wanted everyone to have the vaccine, then THEY would be telling us all to have it.
Not some guy or gal on Collarspace who fits into your #2 type of person (the one who has total faith in science and in the powah' of vaccines).

I still hear people going to the doctor to get an antibiotic to resolve their cold, and I just shake my head and wonder what they're thinking.



DeviantlyD -> RE: Please get the shingles vaccine (1/29/2016 8:16:50 AM)

Maybe I shouldn't say this but what the hay.

It's extremely doubtful that anyone is going to read a post on a message board site and do exactly what the OP says to do without first investigating it for themselves. And the author for this thread is essentially saying "this is what happened in my life...it was horrible...if I can help anyone else avoid this happening, I will tell my story and offer my suggestion." She isn't being irresponsible or reckless. She is simply trying to help others avoid what she has gone through. If her information was entirely erroneous or she was simply reiterating information she had found somewhere that had no real basis in the truth, then it would be careless of her. But that isn't what she's doing. And all of this pontification does little more than illustrate arrogance on the part of the poster. If you were really posting to help, your stance would not be the critical and judgmental ones they are. And yes I see the irony in my last statement, but I am far less condescending than any of you have been in this thread.



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