quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It was a good discussion until the ignorant twat troll showed up to spew his pointlessness.

All about me.

Seriously, just fuck off. Let the two of us show how to have a discussion even though we disagree.

You don't have to piss on what you can't seem to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Until Reagan, we were the world's largest creditor nation.

Dude...as a Republican...I'm an enigma. I've said (since 1983) that Reagan is (was) the biggest con/shell game of our lifetime. You'll get no argument from me.

Eight years of trickle down magical government is the problem mentality later, we were the world's largest debtor nation.

(See above...I did the math then...history proves it....yet...possibly you and I are the only believers...pretty tough NOT to have an AMAZING decade when you never have to pay your credit card bill and every time you hit your max...they send you 12 more cards with triple the available/previous credit).

You know well that debt as a standing number is irrelevant compared to debt as a percentage of GDP. So the 110 years thing is specious. Additionally, at times debt is necessary -- WWII, for instance.

Good reference MM (excellent actually...I knew you did your homework) yet, the argument that "debt doesn't matter" falls on deaf ears when...it simply adds up. I've never been a "monthly payment" kind of guy. What matters to me is...how much is it actually going to cost.

At 900 billion national debt (1979+) John Anderson (Independent) lost against Reagan (and Carter....who offered that we wear sweaters....of course...derided) by offering a 50 cent a gallon tax on gasoline (and diesel)....God forbid that fuel rose by 50 cents....which of course, would have paid off our debt no later than 1993. Perot offered a similar solution (when debt was at 5 trillion)....twice (if I recall...it was..."reduce every budget item by 2% and hold that steady until we balance" {with some proviso's}....but..."he can't be elected"....(and....so he wasn't).

Now we owe 20...with escalations that forbid debt reduction. We are now in the debt...death spiral. There was a time...in your lifetime (mine as well) when there was a real shot at zero debt. No longer. I should re-state...it is possible, but today, the pain is no longer nominal.

The pain no longer requires simple solutions such as buying in bulk...planning ahead....driving less....or even...wearing sweaters. Today, the pain mandates not driving at all, having less, dropping down several levels of lifestyle. It's no longer simply changing steak out for hamburger.

It's changing oatmeal out for....not as much oatmeal as before.

See...the problem isn't Trump....it's us. Whether or not anyone believes that Trump is the solution is really immaterial....CLEARLY....with EVERYONE offering rope, a canoe and a ladder....for a very long time...the problem isn't even Clinton....or Bush....

It's us.

We don't (collectively) want a solution....just more free shit.

The solutions have been offered....soooo many times. We didn't want them and now...it's no longer "how much can you afford to pay monthly?"....it's "how much longer can you live with what you have....before you buy a (used) replacement for what you currently have?" and....the evidence abounds.

And, programs were created to solve problems. "We're just not gonna pay for the solutions anymore" just means we get the problems back.

MM....we've never been willing to pay for solutions. See above. THAT's the problem. We don't want solutions....we want our shit...and we want it today.

Additionally (it's a couple years back, but I'm not gonna Google all night just to make this point -- you'll get it): "The financial position of the United States includes assets of at least $269.6 trillion (1576% of GDP) and debts of $145.8 trillion (852% of GDP) to produce a net worth of at least $123.8 trillion (723% of GDP) [a] as of Q1 2014."

Great stuff...and while (to use your example) our stuff is worth more....how many people do you know that have these fantastic homes....driving by them, you see the beautiful yard, the BMW....and yet...the newspaper boy knows the truth....they look great from the outside....but one look in to the living room window discovers the obvious: The only furniture they have is....right there...in the living room window for all to see....and nowhere else (ergo....monthly payment vs. total cost argument).

We've all seen the Yahoo and other news posts about what the average person actually has in the bank (do keep in mind....that is "average"...ergo, it includes myriad others who are quite wealthy, with substantial savings, that sway the data)....the "average" couple (married with children) is debt heavy (and over the last 7+ years...absolutely upside down...in real and actual dollars)....today....has LESS than 45 days costs in the bank.

Now....let's add a bit more (startling) facts to that: They have 45 days worth of PAYMENTS for their debt....in the bank.

Which then clarifies for anyone who knows how a calculator works that....indeed....debt absolutely matters.

(Without debate....WW2 or any other period chosen....not even remotely....withstanding).

Indeed....the SMART thing for every ONE of these asset rich, cash poor saps to do....so long as the game of musical chairs would continue...would be....sell your fabulous McMansion (or whatever else you may have of value might be), get the fuck out of debt, step down about 4 or 5 levels of "Look at MEEEEE" and say...."ya know....that little 3 bedroom rambler looks kind of nice"....("But Daddy....what will my friends say?????")...but...you know they won't...I know they won't and....every seller of goods....knows.....they.....won't. No ropes, canoes or helicopters for these people.....no way Jose. (My favorite kind of folks....they eventually turn in to renters....and I'm right there to help).

US GDP is over $17 trillion, closing in on twice that of China (just 10 years ago it was 5 - 7 times), and 1/5 of global GDP (barely 20 years ago it was 1/4 of world GDP), with less than 5% of the population.

While I agree we need to look seriously at our budget -- we're not exactly going broke next week.

And why is that? Because we own the world's currency. That's a bit deeper subject than most can handle so, I won't delve in to it but, suffice it to say, when that ceases to be the truth (and that time is coming sooner than one would wish were true)...our comfortable world will rapidly change...for reasons that are far too complicated to go in to here.

For starters, we could CUT our bloated military budget -- which includes things the military doesn't even want -- instead of dramatically increasing it.

That's well above my pay grade. With ISIS and a billion other issues....I couldn't debate that subject effectively for more than 2 seconds.

Anyone who seriously looks at addressing the national debt -- and you'll see both parties are at fault here (zero debate there...but the parties aren't the real problem) -- MUST, according to any independent analysis, include ALL of the following:

- adjust Medicaid/Medicare
- adjust Social Security
- cut the military budget
- cut spending
- raise taxes

I'm not sure I agree with everything you pose there but...I don't believe, either, that one way is better than another (because someone is going to object/get fucked in the deal/etc.)....but...what you just described is exactly what I've argued for in every election...."let's start paying the bill today".

(And someone is going to object/get fucked in the deal/etc.)

Ayep....da's how dat woiks.

And but for Anderson, Perot or Ron Paul....(since Reagan)....who has stepped up to do exactly that?

Only one person MM....and as I've said multiple times...."it's gonna hurt".

The bill is long overdue.

Today's a GREAT time to make the first payment.

Instead . . . We have people peddling their personal agendas, and in the case of the oligarchy, primarily to enrich themselves.

Hmmmm....and so....after ALLLLL that....you come around to exactly my point: Today is a great time to start paying the bill (regardless of who gets hurt....or....did you want any exceptions...because once we start making any exceptions...the game is over and we're back to...."more free stuff for me".

And so....it's gonna hurt.

(Everyone).

Because we were pussies when it would have meant only skipping desert....twice.

Reagan's own people admitted trickle down was a failure. But there were those who enjoy the benefits of a widening gulf between the top and bottom. That's not good for the economy or the markets long term.

That gulf has widened for millennia. It widens even faster for those that refuse to pay for tomorrow....today. I do quite well today (I hardly live like a King). My bills are paid for a year in advance at minimum and, I have 3 years expenses in the bank, in cash. I don't say that to brag, just that, when I was 20....when my friends said "buying a house is IMPOSSIBLE!" (then 35 grand in Seattle...same house today: $450,000.00)...but...it really wasn't impossible....it was simply....difficult....so....I bought 2....fixed them up, painted them, sold them and bought 4 more...and so on.

I didn't get laid as often as my buddies in my 20's, my cars were pieces of shit then...today, they're just very comfortable 12 year old Chevy's...paint's good, stereo works fine, seats feel good....but all my buddies drive Lexus's, live in 4,000 sf homes (mine is 3,500 sf....and I own 4 others, paid for, that pay all my bills...plus I still work every day....because I love my job)....and they'll be out of debt....sometime around...well....ehhh....who am I kidding....never.

And for the record...those are just my residential RE assets....something anyone could have done (and even something anyone my age could even do today). I have other RE assets but these (above) were discussed solely to emphasize....I didn't do anything spectacular by any measure (in fact...it was ridiculously easy).

Simply put, the income "gulf" will widen for every person who wants today, what they choose to pay for tomorrow.

There's an excellent book out....I think it was written in the late 80's...."The Million Dollar Pizza"....it's all about how....that pizza "today" (25 bucks or so....costs about 2 bucks to make)...costs millions over just a short 30 year span. I still go out for pizza. But I didn't. For a long time.I didn't miss it, I had some killer times in my 20's (some I moderately regret :) Some....I wish I was young enough to do again another 40 times! :) )

Trump/Ryan certainly don't have a better answer -- except for them.

I think that's true for most people. How many times have we all heard (or said) "if I ran my household like the government does...I'd be BROKE!!!"

Guess what? Private debt is 20+% HIGHER than public debt and.....most individual private citizens....indeed....ARE broke (they were right).

Who will pay for the resulting mess? You and I. And a lot more people who can't afford to pay (for something they didn't cause).

And therein lies the rub; They did cause it....by not stepping up to the plate when a rope, canoe and even helicopter was offered.

And without stepping up to the plate today....they will perpetuate it.

Me...it literally makes zero difference to me.

How I see things? Who gives a shit what I think....but...as long as someone's asking....I'd like to start paying the bill today and.....yes....it's gonna hurt.

A LOT.

A lot more than 40 years ago....a lot LESS than 40 years from today.

Trump just offered a rope. I think we should all grab it.

We all said no (collectively) to a canoe (John Anderson) and a helicopter (Perot).

It's time to say yes.

(And....just for the record....I think it'd be awesome if most folks would do as I've described above....ultimately putting people like me out of work. But....that's never gonna happen. Ever).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yes, you and I are in agreement. While I'm not panicked, the bill is high and does come due.

And yep, both parties want expansionary policies (though different ones), but oppose contractionary policies.

And paying the piper is definitely contractionary. But less contractionary than paying much more later.

It is, in a sense, an investment. But everyone's talking about spending and taxes, and little to nothing about sensible investment.

Let alone prudent fiscal responsibility.

And yes, the voters elect those representatives, so there's a lot of fault to be shared.

But as for the Trump/Ryan fiasco -- no, sorry, this is a scheme to keep the bucks flowing upwards. The day they say "OK, people, we HAVE to control these costs, it's gonna hurt, AND we're gonna raise taxes and trim the military budget," they will have my attention.

(But...they never will.....and....more importantly....no matter the political side.....they never have so....isn't it then, incumbent to.....grab a rope? And stop waiting for a canoe.....or a helicopter? If the suit (always) changes....but the result never does....why waste 40 years debating who's at fault.....I'm thinking....."grab a rope").

(You can thank me later :) )

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm thinking send it back and call them and tell them to actually fix the fucker.

Not pretend they are while making it worse. Yes, worse.

This is not progress. It's theater. Expensive theater.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Go start yet another thread about Hilary.

This one is about Trump's rolling disaster -- as seen by Republicans.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Go start yet another thread about Hilary.

This one is about Trump's rolling disaster -- as seen by Republicans.

Oh, I am SO sorry. Did I mention your Queen again despite your constant petulant demands that she shall not be mentioned

Speaking of your Queen, have I mentioned two or three times today yet, that she conspired with CNN and the DNC to cheat Bernie Sanders out of the Democrat Party nomination?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Go start yet another thread about Hilary.

This one is about Trump's rolling disaster -- as seen by Republicans.

Oh, I am SO sorry. Did I mention your Queen again despite your constant petulant demands that she shall not be mentioned

Speaking of your Queen, have I mentioned two or three times today yet, that she conspired with CNN and the DNC to cheat Bernie Sanders out of the Democrat Party nomination?

Bosco... MM is not a Hillary fan.

And you're getting sickening. Try actually discussing things like a man.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Go start yet another thread about Hilary.

This one is about Trump's rolling disaster -- as seen by Republicans.

Oh, I am SO sorry. Did I mention your Queen again despite your constant petulant demands that she shall not be mentioned

Speaking of your Queen, have I mentioned two or three times today yet, that she conspired with CNN and the DNC to cheat Bernie Sanders out of the Democrat Party nomination?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Go start yet another thread about Hilary.

This one is about Trump's rolling disaster -- as seen by Republicans.

Oh, I am SO sorry. Did I mention your Queen again despite your constant petulant demands that she shall not be mentioned

Speaking of your Queen, have I mentioned two or three times today yet, that she conspired with CNN and the DNC to cheat Bernie Sanders out of the Democrat Party nomination?

Bosco... MM is not a Hillary fan.

And you're getting sickening. Try actually discussing things like a man.

I know, he hates twats period, pun intended.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Republicans worry about Trump's rolling disaster:

When Republicans imagined having a president of their own and control of Congress, they thought it would be a nonstop string of legislative achievements and improvements to government, bringing an inspiring new era of efficiency and effectiveness that showed Americans what the GOP was really capable of.

That is not quite how things are working out. Let’s take a brief tour around the news from just today, to see what is befalling the Trump administration:

-The travel ban: Federal judges in Hawaii and Maryland halted the second version of the administration’s travel ban, ruling that its discriminatory intent likely makes it unconstitutional and putting it on indefinite hold.

-The Affordable Care Act repeal: After a brutal Congressional Budget Office assessment showed that the Republican bill would cause 24 million Americans to lose their health coverage, House Speaker Paul Ryan now admits that the bill can’t pass the House in its current form.

-The budget: “President Trump on Thursday will unveil a budget plan that calls for a sharp increase in military spending and stark cuts across much of the rest of the government including the elimination of dozens of long-standing federal programs that assist the poor, fund scientific research and aid America’s allies abroad.”
That last one may not look like bad news — yet. But it’s going to produce both internal and external problems. It’s already causing consternation among Republicans on Capitol Hill, many of whom like to talk about limited government in the abstract but aren’t as happy about the kind of radical cuts the administration is suggesting, setting up a conflict between the White House and Congress. They’ll also find that the public, too, thinks “small government” sounds like a good idea until you start cutting the programs they depend on. And that’s before we even get to the Russia scandal.

What’s going on? The administration isn’t failing because of some brilliant strategy on Democrats’ part. They’re being weighed down by problems of their own making. In isolation each problem would be difficult but ultimately manageable; together they’re giving the administration nothing but bad days. Let’s take them each in turn:

Abysmal management. Trump was only the latest in a long line of political figures who argued that if someone from outside politics took over the government, he’d whip it into shape with his business savvy and management expertise. The result has been the most chaotic and incompetent White House anyone can remember. As Politico reported Wednesday, “A culture of paranoia is consuming the Trump administration, with staffers increasingly preoccupied with perceived enemies — inside their own government,” creating “an environment of fear that has hamstrung the routine functioning of the executive branch.”

Almost no one at the top levels of the Trump administration has experience in government, which not surprisingly has made everything more difficult as they bumble around trying to figure out how things work. Whether because of their own indifference to governing or the inability to find anyone willing to work for Trump, the administration hasn’t even nominated people to fill more than 500 of the 553 key positions requiring Senate confirmation, leaving agencies across the government barely able to function. If this is what Trump considers a “fine-tuned machine,” imagine what it would look like if it weren’t running so smoothly.

A disastrous first legislative priority. Republicans may have had no choice but to pursue the repeal of the ACA right off the bat, but they could hardly have gone about it in a less competent way. After seven years of attacking the law, they still hadn’t settled on their alternative, leading to a hastily written plan that not only would create a health-care catastrophe if implemented but also managed to win the displeasure of their members in both the Senate (for being too harsh) and the House (for not being harsh enough). Now the White House is saying it’s Paul Ryan’s fault, Ryan is trying to make Trump share the blame, and the whole thing is spiraling downward. Rich Lowry, the editor of the conservative National Review, writes that the repeal bill “has had the worst rollout of any major piece of legislation in memory,” and has left the GOP “staring into the abyss.”

An impulsive, distracted president. People keep wondering if the latest Trump outburst is a clever ploy to distract the country from whatever piece of bad news is currently vexing the administration. But the one who’s easily distractible is the president himself, and then he in turn distracts his staff and congressional allies. Just look at what’s happening with his accusation that President Barack Obama tapped his phones. On impulse, after reading an article on a white nationalist website, Trump levels a ludicrous and baseless charge, then everyone in the White House has to pretend that it’s serious and legitimate, and they’re forced to answer questions about it for weeks. All that time could be spent advancing an affirmative agenda.

Because he can never admit that he was wrong, Trump drags the issue out endlessly, just as he did with earlier iterations of this pattern, about the size of his inaugural crowd or the millions of phantom illegal votes that led to his popular vote loss (I’d encourage you to read the transcript of his Wednesday interview with Tucker Carlson and marvel at the fact that this man is actually president of the United States). That then makes life difficult for Republicans in Congress, who are put in the awkward position of either defending the latest bit of stupidity issuing from the Oval Office or being honest about how ridiculous it is, which they know would win them the president’s ire.

Much as you can blame Republicans in Congress, including Ryan, for being Trump’s enablers, there’s no doubt that they’re not happy about how things are going. And as time goes on and their minds turn to the 2018 elections, they’re going to start thinking more and more about their own survival. Given that even in the best of times the president’s party usually loses seats in the midterms, they may begin looking for ways to separate themselves from an unpopular president, which is only going to make future legislating more complicated.

http://washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/03/16/why-is-the-trump-presidency-such-a-rolling-disaster/?utm_term=2a6861a51a36

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Go start yet another thread about Hilary.

This one is about Trump's rolling disaster -- as seen by Republicans.

Oh, I am SO sorry. Did I mention your Queen again despite your constant petulant demands that she shall not be mentioned

Speaking of your Queen, have I mentioned two or three times today yet, that she conspired with CNN and the DNC to cheat Bernie Sanders out of the Democrat Party nomination?

Bosco... MM is not a Hillary fan.

And you're getting sickening. Try actually discussing things like a man.

I know, he hates twats period, pun intended.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And it's not even with real butter.

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ORIGINAL: AtUrCervix

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And it's not even with real butter.

Gawwwwd....I just looked that up.

(He's right...it's yellow Crisco or something).