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ORIGINAL: longwayhome

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ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

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ORIGINAL: longwayhome

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ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

OK longwayhome, I'm going to give you a prime example of all this that perfectly shows my stance on it; I spent a vast amount of my relationship forgiving my ex for fucking up, for hurting me, for not listening to me when I'd say 'Please don't do that because this will happen, and I'll be left picking up the pieces, yet again', listening to him telling me how he knew what he was doing this time, to stop chelping, and so on. Only for it all to go exactly the way I said, and for me to be then listening to 'I'm so sorry, I promise it will be different next time, please, please, please. I promise ... sit me down, make me listen, I'll do whatever it takes', and I'd remind him that he'd said this last time too, and the time before, and we'd get to next time, so I'd remind him of the promise, but then I'd be listening to 'It's different this time, I know what I'm doing' and so on it would go. In sixteen years that man never kept a single promise to me. His last promises were to our son. That he'd stick to the agreement with me over the house when we split up. He put his hand on our 15 year old son's head, and swore on his life that he would stick to that agreement, then didn't, and called our son a liar to his solicitors. He dragged everything out, made us homeless, and put our son in the middle rather than do the right thing.

That arsehole had cheated on me, not once, but twice, so the above was adding insult to injury, and my son knew it. Now, I put everything my ex did to me aside, and I kept everything civilized for my son's benefit to start with so that it was as easy on him as possible, but he was too much of an arsehole to even behave like a real father to his son. In the end his son decided he wanted nothing to do with him. I owe him nothing at all. Now even if I could forgive him for what he'd done to me, I will never forgive him for what he put our son through. He didn't have to watch what that caused, but I did. I had to deal with the fall out from all that.

He also has another son from a previous relationship, my step-son, who has children of his own, my Grandchildren. All of this causes tension there too, because he's too much of a child to be civilized about any of it. He makes no effort with his son, or the children at all unless there is a birthday, and then all of a sudden he has to be there right when he knows I would be there. Now, I could actually be in a room, say hi, and get on with celebrating my Grandchild's birthday and basically ignore him, but he's too childish to even do that because somehow he thinks he's a victim in all this. He's a narcissistic twat.

I forgave him far too many times, to the point that it was devalued, and he lost all respect for me. When he cheated on me the second time he seriously thought I was going to take him back. That pattern of forgiveness was so set with him that he really thought he could disrespect me so much that it just wouldn't matter. However, worst of all, he treated our son in exactly the same way. To the point that he's lost that relationship too, because my son has also learned that you can only forgive a person so many times before it becomes as meaningless as their sorry.

Indifference is to feel nothing at all. Now to suggest that forgiveness could ever be close to being the same shows a total lack of respect for what it is. These things are not mere words to be used interchangeably. I have not forgiven my ex in any way what-so-ever, and never shall. I am, however, totally indifferent to him. Forgiveness was something I gave, often at a cost to myself. Sorry was something that I heard far too often until it became meaningless, and empty. Then you are left with indifference because there is just nothing left to give, and sometimes this happens with family members too.

Needles

I don't think anything I have said negates your personal experience in any way.

Firstly as you point out in detail repeatedly reconciling with someone who carries on hurting or damaging you, and gives you no basis for trust, is ultimately destructive. In all things there is a big difference between making a mistake and carrying on regardless of the hurt you are causing other people. Please do not take my not quoting examples to mean that I have no personal understanding of this or that I would necessarily seek any sort of reconciliation with someone in similar circumstances.

It is entirely your prerogative not to forgive your ex. You have also clearly described how your indifference is as a result of being ground down and wrung out so that there is no care left, rather than anything you could describe as forgiveness. I absolutely get that and the need we all have for self-protection.

For my part I may choose to "forgive" someone as part of letting go and making sure that what they have done cannot affect me any more, but I cannot do it on behalf of anyone else they have hurt or let down. Indeed dealing with what people do to others you love and can't entirely protect is much more difficult than processing what happens directly to you. In the fourth paragraph of my previous post I indicated that both situations where reconciliation was possible and situations involving moving on without reconciliation required a certain amount of forgiveness on my part. That is very different from respecting, trusting or ever letting that person back into your life.

In any case, whilst I sense your annoyance with me, I am certainly not telling you to make "forgiveness" any part of the way you come to terms with things personally, nor am I making any judgements on how you live your life or how feel about what has happened to you.

I do understand the differences between the concepts of forgiveness, reconciliation and indifference. Just as I am sure the history you described was heavily edited, there are things which I have internalised that I will not be sharing on the Boards. As I suggested in my last post, how I choose to put those things together to deal with any violence, abuse and neglect that has happened to me, or those I care about, may work for me in my life but I don't expect it to work for everybody.

I was never annoyed at you, I was simply putting my point over that forgiveness, and indifference are no where near the same thing. You said it's down to personal interpretation, definition. Well only in so far as the way you actually apply those words to your own emotions, not to what they actually mean. They are not synonyms. You say go on to say 'I think that it is forgiveness when you have no intentions of having anything to do with them but you want to let go of any bitterness you feel, but it can easily be described as moving from a state of hating or blaming someone to feeling indifferent.' It's not the same thing at all. Either you've forgiven the person, and dropped everything, or you are indifferent to them. It can't be described as the you've put it, because they are not the same. I would never forgive someone for something when I was always going to view them with indifference. I would certainly never give someone my forgiveness if I had no intention of having them back in my life, they wouldn't deserve that level of emotion from me.

You use the word hate. It's a very strong word. It's not one I readily give people. It implies a level of thought, energy and emotion not fitting of their status in my life. Hate requires an awful lot of head space, and I don't give that rent free.

I'm not sure I'm getting my point across exactly the way I want to today. I have a full blown Migraine, and whilst I have the concept for it in my head, it doesn't always translate well between brain, hands, and screen, despite editing

Needles

I can see what you mean, and it makes perfect sense to me. I think we use the words in different ways.

You have hit the nail on the head when you say "Either you've forgiven the person, and dropped everything, or you are indifferent to them", whereas in my head I don't link forgiveness and reconciliation together. I can forgive someone and not mean them any harm, but still not want to have anything to do with them.

On reflection I don't actually say "I forgive you" to anyone because it feels a bit self-important and I'm not a deity or a priest. I might say that something was in the past and tell someone not to feel bad about it. Wiping the slate clean mentally and letting someone back into your life are different for me.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

It is with great apologies that you thought I meant you. I was replying to the OP, too. When the OP walks in MY shoes, she can lecture me on forgiveness.

For what it's worth, my stalker will never come clean. It makes me sick when people rub elbows with him. When they do, I find them no better than them.

You mention restorative justice. We should talk about that. Even I believe it's possible.

The ONUS is on the offender. NOT the victims.

For restorative justice to work, for me, it has to look like a recovery program. It's a process.

"We made a list of all persons we had harmed, and become willing to make amends to them all."

What my stalker's list must look like, scares me to death. Hundreds, no, thousands of people. The harm caused.

"We made amends to such persons we had harmed, except when to do so WOULD INJURE THEM OR OTHERS!!


My stalker has never made amends to anyone, least of all me. When my daughter called me up crying, saying "Momma, he's going to kill you..." My child said that to me.

So, before the OP preaches about forgiveness, I'll make the same offer...

Come to my home. See what this is like. If a person can't put their ass on the line, they are just a waste of space.



Hey, OP... Have your forgiven???

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ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

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ORIGINAL: longwayhome

I get exactly what you mean. It's a very good point.

Forgiving someone so that you feel no bitterness and wish them no harm is a positive psychological benefit for me. You might well call that moving on. For me though there's a distinction between that and something fading to the extent that it doesn't cause so much anguish any more. To an extent it's just about the way you internalise things.

For me forgiveness and trust are two very different things. You can forgive someone but not want to be part of their lifestyle or behaviours. In particular you would not reconcile or try again with a relationship with someone you couldn't trust.

I think at this point we're talking about the exact same thing, and calling it different things, because if you're still feeling bitterness and wishing somebody harm, that's not indifference, that's still anger.

Indifference is reaching the state where you neither feel any positive, nor any negative emotions towards them. The lack of positive emotions is cause by the fact that they did nothing to make up for their transgressions. The lack of negative emotions is cause by the fact that you've moved on, and let go of your anger.

That's not the same as 'it slowly fading so there isn't so much anguish anymore'. If there's still anguish, no matter how faded, and still bitterness and anger, there is no indifference. Indifference is the lack of those things. The letting go of those things.
It's an active step you need to take... you need to make the choice, at some point, to let it go, stop being angry, and just let things be... it's not something you can get to by just letting it fade over time.

When you just let things fade, you get to a state of low level anger that you don't think about anymore most of the time, but which flares up into passionate anger again every time you're reminded of the event somehow. That's not a healthy state to be in, and it's not the same as moving on and being indifferent.

But I think that 'moving on and letting go to get to indifference' is exactly the same as what you're calling your 'low level forgiveness without reconciliation', which makes the discussion at this point a purely one of pure semantics, because we basically agree 100%, but use different terms to describe the same process.

Thank you for explaining yourself so thoughtfully though.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

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ORIGINAL: CaptR

That's just .... Messy and waaaayyy too labor intensive.

Wait and see how "labor intensive' it can be if a person goes the other way.

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ORIGINAL: longwayhome
No problem about the way the postings linked. These things happen.

I think restorative justice is an interesting model if the offender can comprehend what they have done and address it positively, but you are absolutely correct the onus is on them to confront what they have done and face up to the victim. There is no onus on the victim whatsoever to participate and certainly no onus to forgive.

I do think that sometimes traditional "punishments" all too often allow offenders to carry on without ever doing the hard work of coming to terms with what they have done and how it affects people. Even if offenders do opt for participating in restorative schemes they have to do it without expecting forgiveness of any sort.

The bravery required from victims is not something everybody can have so I have nothing but respect for anyone who puts themselves through that, despite some of the positive victim feedback from restorative schemes.