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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/14/2017 4:57:37 PM   
Real0ne


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Would you expect any less when the ZioJiz tard boy comes on the scene to troll his lies?



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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/14/2017 5:00:30 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

sure whats so strange about that? We as people self limit. Self limitation does not mean the capacity to be limitless has diminished in any way. Why would it



Over the course of humanity, we have not sought to limit ourselves. We have sought to expand and become increasingly limitless.



we [self] limit through self imposed moral standards for one.




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 762
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/14/2017 5:53:31 PM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

sure whats so strange about that? We as people self limit. Self limitation does not mean the capacity to be limitless has diminished in any way. Why would it



Over the course of humanity, we have not sought to limit ourselves. We have sought to expand and become increasingly limitless.



we [self] limit through self imposed moral standards for one.





Most moral standards were self imposed to allow us to function together as a society in the quest to expand and grow.

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/14/2017 6:23:31 PM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Although I don't believe in a "young Earth", it could have been around for millions of years, I tend to believe that the period of Creation of plant and animal life was much shorter than "Evolutionists" would have us believe, although much longer than the 144 hours "Creationists" would have us believe.


What leads you to that belief, Miles?

As I have told you I am not a "Creationist", so I don't believe in a "Young Earth" or that each creative day was only 24 hours long.

Why I believe this way will not be scientific in your eyes but I believe it to more in agreement with science than what the "Creationists"believe.

The first statement in the Bible says; "in the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth" and does not say how long ago that was and so the the Universe and the Earth could be as old as any reasonable estimate that scientists can come up with.

Next, the six day creative period seems to start with the Earth already created.

Then how long was each of those "creative days", the word translated as day means a indeterminate length of time and is not limited to 24 hours and although the English word can sometimes mean a time period longer than 24 hours, the Hebrew word can indicate a short or very long time period. Since the Bible indicates that God's "day" of rest continues to our day and there is no reason to believe the "days" of creation are different lengths that would mean that each creative "day" is over say 5000 years which would indicate the the Creation took at least 30,000 years, which is longer than the 144 hours that "Creationists" believe but does not seem like it would allow God the time to use an "Evolution like method" to populate the Earth.

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/14/2017 6:24:18 PM   
Real0ne


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while that can be calculated as one of several benefits, even head hunters and cannibals have certain morals, so I do not see the connection you are trying to make.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to tamaka)
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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/14/2017 6:27:26 PM   
tamaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

while that can be calculated as one of several benefits, even head hunters and cannibals have certain morals, so I do not see the connection you are trying to make.



You are the one trying to equate human morality of self-imposed limits with the concept of a god/thing self imposing limits.

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/14/2017 6:49:02 PM   
Made2Obey


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The problem with the Creationist view is that they assume that the days referred to in Genesis are 24 hours long. We know that a day on Jupiter and Pluto in the same solar system are 9:56 and 153:36 hours respectively. The Bible never mentions God's location during the creation, so why is it implausible to believe that millenia passed on Earth while God experienced a single day?

(in reply to tamaka)
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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/14/2017 7:20:36 PM   
Real0ne


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afaik that is the presumption

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/14/2017 7:24:52 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

while that can be calculated as one of several benefits, even head hunters and cannibals have certain morals, so I do not see the connection you are trying to make.



You are the one trying to equate human morality of self-imposed limits with the concept of a god/thing self imposing limits.



I made an allegory, you choose which morals which boundaries etc, it is your choice, why would God have less freedom to choose than you? Setting a limit and being limited are 2 entirely different things. The universe is fundamentally 'balanced' by design. You or I may not like it we can criticize it but that is its design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ComvPCsRYWI

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 769
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/14/2017 7:25:28 PM   
tamaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Made2Obey

The problem with the Creationist view is that they assume that the days referred to in Genesis are 24 hours long. We know that a day on Jupiter and Pluto in the same solar system are 9:56 and 153:36 hours respectively. The Bible never mentions God's location during the creation, so why is it implausible to believe that millenia passed on Earth while God experienced a single day?


Actually, there is no such thing as time.

(in reply to Made2Obey)
Profile   Post #: 770
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/14/2017 7:38:30 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Made2Obey

The problem with the Creationist view is that they assume that the days referred to in Genesis are 24 hours long. We know that a day on Jupiter and Pluto in the same solar system are 9:56 and 153:36 hours respectively. The Bible never mentions God's location during the creation, so why is it implausible to believe that millenia passed on Earth while God experienced a single day?


Actually, there is no such thing as time.




tru, its an abstract construct of some uniform interval that is used as a chronological method to measure and record events etc.

a+b=c is equally abstract construct.

While we cant touch any of them they can be attached or assigned to things which are either real or abstract.

So in an abstract sense time is very real, as well as math.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 771
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/14/2017 7:57:24 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: tamaka

Actually, there is no such thing as time.

Time is just a conspiracy to keep everything from happening all at once.

(in reply to tamaka)
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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/14/2017 8:02:12 PM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

@Miles

quote:

First, you need to check your Quantum Mechanics, no "electron can pass through two different "doors" simultaneously"


Recap: When a camera observed the electrons, they acted as particles. However, when the no equipment was used to observe the electrons, they acted as waves and particles simultaneously.

[SNIP]

What are the implications of this?

1. Matter can act as both a wave and a particle depending on whether or not it is being observed (Wave-Duality Theory)

This is the least meaningful implication for you as a macroscopic organism, but nonetheless it’s a pretty crazy concept.

2. Observation can (possibly) affect the outcome of macroscopic events

After all, you and everything you know are composed of these microscopic particles, so why couldn’t something large be influenced as well? It would be the sum of a seemingly infinite amount of pieces of matter acting as either waves or particles. Scientists have very mixed opinions on this topic so I’ll just say it makes sense to me that this could happen on a larger scale.

3. We don’t know very much about this universe (Science is not yet an ‘exact science’)

There are a couple things out there that science still cannot explain like the characteristics of gravity, but this blows Newton’s discovery out of the water. As we study smaller and smaller particles in order to understand more about what we’re made, we seem to find more things that just don’t make sense. Point being that nothing should be ruled out completely because we simply cannot know anything for certain at this point.



DOUBLE SLIT EXPERIMENT

Unlike Believers, we never claimed to "know it all." And we do not close our minds to physical possibilities.

Interesting but it is not that simple.

In actuality neither one of us is "correct", the more correct statement would be; depending on observation a single electron can apparently go through two slits at the same time, sometimes.

Have you looked at all the "double slit" experiments that have been done? You might find some of the new ones are interesting.
https://youtu.be/8ORLN_KwAgs

Believers don't know it all, we just know someone who does.
;-)

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 773
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/14/2017 8:28:09 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

@Miles

quote:

First, you need to check your Quantum Mechanics, no "electron can pass through two different "doors" simultaneously"


Recap: When a camera observed the electrons, they acted as particles. However, when the no equipment was used to observe the electrons, they acted as waves and particles simultaneously.

[SNIP]

What are the implications of this?

1. Matter can act as both a wave and a particle depending on whether or not it is being observed (Wave-Duality Theory)

This is the least meaningful implication for you as a macroscopic organism, but nonetheless it’s a pretty crazy concept.

2. Observation can (possibly) affect the outcome of macroscopic events

After all, you and everything you know are composed of these microscopic particles, so why couldn’t something large be influenced as well? It would be the sum of a seemingly infinite amount of pieces of matter acting as either waves or particles. Scientists have very mixed opinions on this topic so I’ll just say it makes sense to me that this could happen on a larger scale.

3. We don’t know very much about this universe (Science is not yet an ‘exact science’)

There are a couple things out there that science still cannot explain like the characteristics of gravity, but this blows Newton’s discovery out of the water. As we study smaller and smaller particles in order to understand more about what we’re made, we seem to find more things that just don’t make sense. Point being that nothing should be ruled out completely because we simply cannot know anything for certain at this point.



DOUBLE SLIT EXPERIMENT

Unlike Believers, we never claimed to "know it all." And we do not close our minds to physical possibilities.

Interesting but it is not that simple.

In actuality neither one of us is "correct", the more correct statement would be; depending on observation a single electron can apparently go through two slits at the same time, sometimes.

Have you looked at all the "double slit" experiments that have been done? You might find some of the new ones are interesting.
https://youtu.be/8ORLN_KwAgs

Believers don't know it all, we just know someone who does.
;-)




I am going to remember that line.
There is a much higher "authority" than man.

Bless you for having the time and energy to go 40 pages on here.
I can't do it.
Peace and Blessings to you!


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 774
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/14/2017 8:35:54 PM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

@Miles

quote:

First, you need to check your Quantum Mechanics, no "electron can pass through two different "doors" simultaneously"


Recap: When a camera observed the electrons, they acted as particles. However, when the no equipment was used to observe the electrons, they acted as waves and particles simultaneously.

[SNIP]

What are the implications of this?

1. Matter can act as both a wave and a particle depending on whether or not it is being observed (Wave-Duality Theory)

This is the least meaningful implication for you as a macroscopic organism, but nonetheless it’s a pretty crazy concept.

2. Observation can (possibly) affect the outcome of macroscopic events

After all, you and everything you know are composed of these microscopic particles, so why couldn’t something large be influenced as well? It would be the sum of a seemingly infinite amount of pieces of matter acting as either waves or particles. Scientists have very mixed opinions on this topic so I’ll just say it makes sense to me that this could happen on a larger scale.

3. We don’t know very much about this universe (Science is not yet an ‘exact science’)

There are a couple things out there that science still cannot explain like the characteristics of gravity, but this blows Newton’s discovery out of the water. As we study smaller and smaller particles in order to understand more about what we’re made, we seem to find more things that just don’t make sense. Point being that nothing should be ruled out completely because we simply cannot know anything for certain at this point.



DOUBLE SLIT EXPERIMENT

Unlike Believers, we never claimed to "know it all." And we do not close our minds to physical possibilities.

Interesting but it is not that simple.

In actuality neither one of us is "correct", the more correct statement would be; depending on observation a single electron can apparently go through two slits at the same time, sometimes.

Have you looked at all the "double slit" experiments that have been done? You might find some of the new ones are interesting.
https://youtu.be/8ORLN_KwAgs

Believers don't know it all, we just know someone who does.
;-)



Believers have been pre-programmed to believe they know someone who does.



(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 775
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/14/2017 8:37:32 PM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: tamaka

Actually, there is no such thing as time.

Time is just a conspiracy to keep everything from happening all at once.



Well... it seems that way at the time anyways. ;)

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 776
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/14/2017 9:56:00 PM   
Made2Obey


Posts: 357
Joined: 8/21/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Actually, there is no such thing as time.



I sure wish you would explain that to my alarm clock. 😊

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 777
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/14/2017 10:12:52 PM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Made2Obey


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Actually, there is no such thing as time.



I sure wish you would explain that to my alarm clock. 😊


It's kind of like that double slit experiment, isn't it.

(in reply to Made2Obey)
Profile   Post #: 778
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/15/2017 6:51:56 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Although I don't believe in a "young Earth", it could have been around for millions of years, I tend to believe that the period of Creation of plant and animal life was much shorter than "Evolutionists" would have us believe, although much longer than the 144 hours "Creationists" would have us believe.


What leads you to that belief, Miles?

As I have told you I am not a "Creationist", so I don't believe in a "Young Earth" or that each creative day was only 24 hours long.

Why I believe this way will not be scientific in your eyes but I believe it to more in agreement with science than what the "Creationists"believe.

The first statement in the Bible says; "in the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth" and does not say how long ago that was and so the the Universe and the Earth could be as old as any reasonable estimate that scientists can come up with.

Next, the six day creative period seems to start with the Earth already created.

Then how long was each of those "creative days", the word translated as day means a indeterminate length of time and is not limited to 24 hours and although the English word can sometimes mean a time period longer than 24 hours, the Hebrew word can indicate a short or very long time period. Since the Bible indicates that God's "day" of rest continues to our day and there is no reason to believe the "days" of creation are different lengths that would mean that each creative "day" is over say 5000 years which would indicate the the Creation took at least 30,000 years, which is longer than the 144 hours that "Creationists" believe but does not seem like it would allow God the time to use an "Evolution like method" to populate the Earth.

In neither case you give no credence to the tick, tick, tock of the rate of nuclear decomposition of U-92 that is well measured, and if I were a true believer I would ask how can you give presumptive credibility to the numbers written in an ancient book to the half life of 4.468 billion years for U-92? Was the first calculated in a book called Natural Radioactive Decay for Dummies?

And, yes, you have said it many, many times, Miles we understand your feeble distinction between young earth Creationists. And just as you feel correctly that you are not obliged to answer all questions I do not feel obliged to note your distinction every time I use the word "Creationism." And I ask you to equally accept that when I use Creationism with a capital "C" I am referring to Darwin's work which has not anything to do with creation of the universe. Let's get off those carousal horses, please. We are talking past each other about two different things.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 779
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/15/2017 7:19:24 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

worth the quick read comrades:

quote:

QUESTION: Catastrophism versus Uniformitarianism – Where does the evidence lead?

ANSWER:

Catastrophism versus uniformitarianism describes alternative process which could be primarily responsible for the formation the geological strata and embedded fossils. Catastrophism was accepted as the only possible explanation until the about the 18th century. Catastrophism taught that the geologic rock strata were primarily a result of catastrophes like the worldwide flood of Noah. At that time James Hutton and Sir Charles Lyell proposed an alternative explanation of uniformitarianism. The theory of uniformitarianism taught that the present was the key to the past and exactly the same slow process that we see today is the one responsible for the formation of all the geological rock strata.

Since deposition with the uniformitarianism theory was so slow, long eons of time were required. This meant that the current biblical beliefs at that time of a young earth, the recent history of life on earth and the worldwide flood of Noah were discredited. In addition, uniformitarianism laid the foundation for Darwin’s theory of evolution, which also needed an old earth to be credible.

So uniformitarianism dethroned catastrophism and evolution dethroned biblical creationism and both became the dominant theories in academia and science until the present time. Currently, academia and science are clinging to uniformitarianism and biological macroevolution with all the strength they can muster. However, large splits have been seen in the ranks. During the last 50 years an enormous amount of information has been collected that supports catastrophism and intelligent design.

The Mount St. Helens eruption and subsequent erosion has taught us that rapid deposition and rapid canyon erosion is a fact. It doesn’t take years to form. It doesn’t take rocket science to know that life forms cannot be fossilized unless buried rapidly.

Regarding biological macroevolution:
• No transitional fossils have been found; museums should be full of them.
• Hoaxes, forgeries, and misrepresentations have been rampant.
• Evolutionists can’t explain the origin of life.
• Evolutionists can’t explain complexity or irreducible complexity.
• Evolutionists can’t explain consciousness.

Many in science and academia have a deeply held religious belief in uniformitarianism and evolution in spite of all the evidence pointing in the opposite direction. This is understandable from several standpoints:
• Not wanting to be accountable to a God, they would have to accept if they would let the scientific data form their scientific beliefs.
• Their conflict of interest is revealed by their complete refusal to consider special creation as a possible alternative explanation, especially when the fossil evidence stares them in the face.
• The fact that their original theories were based upon religious political motivations. Dr. Henry Morris claimed that this was true for Sir Charles Lyell. Julian Huxley, grandson of Thomas Huxley “Darwin’s bulldog,” first director of UNESCO and prominent evolutionist was asked on a public radio station an interesting question. He was asked why evolution was accepted so rapidly. He didn’t say anything relating to scientific evidence. He said the reason it became so popular was because it didn’t interfere with our sexual mores.

Consequently, the evidence definitely leads to the fact that the new paradigm shift from a solid belief in the Bible, the biblical flood and a young earth to skepticism in the Bible, rejection of the biblical flood of Noah and an old earth occurred as a result of using the banner of science to promote a religious belief rather than being based upon scientific evidence. Uniformitarianism and evolution theories were tools to accomplish this.


http://www.allaboutcreation.org/catastrophism-versus-uniformitarianism-faq.htm


Thanx, an interesting read.

Although I don't believe in a "young Earth", it could have been around for millions of years, I tend to believe that the period of Creation of plant and animal life was much shorter than "Evolutionists" would have us believe, although much longer than the 144 hours "Creationists" would have us believe.

Give us a break here, Miles, Bounty's criticism comes from a site that has an interested in debunking evolution. If he were serious he would present a debate between an adherent of uniformatarianist\m and a catastrophist. . . and he would acknowledge the very real possibility that both processes are at work, that uniformatarianism proceeds in the variety of the genes and is exposed by catastrophes like earthquakes and volcanic islands. It has long been proposed from the fossil records that tiny mammals existed along side dinosaurs and then survived them when whatever catastrophe spelled their doom occurred.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 780
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