quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Let's start with why do people wish harm on another and work up from there. I'd say the answer is the speed of their thoughts accompanied by inability to keep their energy in balance
The problem is clearly that people want to kill.
They will no matter what tools are available.

Yes, Bama, it is clear that some people want to kill. But, why (that's what tamaka is trying to put an answer to)? What drives them to take another's life? And, if a person is that driven to take someone else's life, you're correct, it won't matter what tools are available. Same goes for suicides.

I don't think her response adequately explains gang violence, but there could be something there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Let's start with why do people wish harm on another and work up from there. I'd say the answer is the speed of their thoughts accompanied by inability to keep their energy in balance
The problem is clearly that people want to kill.
They will no matter what tools are available.

Yes, Bama, it is clear that some people want to kill. But, why (that's what tamaka is trying to put an answer to)? What drives them to take another's life? And, if a person is that driven to take someone else's life, you're correct, it won't matter what tools are available. Same goes for suicides.

I don't think her response adequately explains gang violence, but there could be something there.

Well, tamaka has already said a few innocent lives is worth leaving gun laws alone, so at this point, anything she says is bullshit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Gang violence is easier to explain. Their standing in he gang is enhanced
by the degree of violence.

This is only partially true.

Studies going back to the sixties concerning group (or mob) mentality have shown consistently that even if a person has a higher than normal drive towards violence will, in most cases restrain themselves from acting on those drives due to social pressure.

It is why some people that show the brain imaging pattern associated with psychopathic behavior become ruthless business types, driven scientists (and hard ass perfectionist professors that need a rod removed from their asses) and others become serial killers.

When the group accepts violence as the norm, then even normally non violent individuals will commit acts of violence, case in point the riots in LA after the Rodney King verdicts.

Then there are the arguments that access to guns create the violence, which is also not true. There are small towns all over the western United States where 99% of the population own guns, carry loaded guns in pick up trucks or cars and they have not had a gun related death in decades.

It is even true, if you look at crime statistics since the DoJ started keeping them, that gun violence has risen dramatically since the sixties, peaking in the 90's and then steadily decreased, in fact presently, gun related violence is down 49% over the all time high.

And psychologists have been studying the underlying cause of violence since Freud.

Now, with all that being said, there is some strong evidence, although not clinically proven, but circumstantial, that areas where there is a strong sense of community, violence has decreased.

Areas within large cities where the residents have taken action to clean up parks, streets, houses etc. when the city is perfectly willing to not do anything, violent crimes dropped dramatically. It has happened in areas that were considered combat zones in New York city, Detroit, Chicago and even parts of Los Angeles.

The people got tired of city government blowing the areas off as not being worth the effort, or "the people there dont care, why should we?"

Just as there is a correlation between being in a gang and the tendency toward extremely violent acts, there is, apparently, and equal correlation between a strong sense of community and everyone belonging to a drop in violence.

People basically got tired of being scared and prisoners in their own homes.

Urban renewal was the big plank in conservative politics toward the late sixties and carried into the early 80's until liberals jumped on the bandwagon. Everyone agreed that something had to be done to change the inner cities and low income areas, but even though it was a common goal, both sides refused to work together and get anything done.

It was a joint effort on both sides that got the National Firearms Act of 1984 passed.

It was a joint effort that got the Brady Bill passed.

Hell it was a joint effort that got just about every substantial piece of gun legislation passed since 1932!

However, for what ever reason, in today's America, you cant get both sides to agree on the color of the sky or the necessity for having toilet paper in the bathrooms in Federal buildings, let alone reasonable and enforceable gun laws.

Hell, during the Affordable Care Act debates, Republicans had some good ideas, but were shut down by the dems (who used older GOP suggestions from the Clinton years) which because the dems used them, were not good ideas anymore.

It is not a fact that there are pro gun and anti gun people around, there have always been. It is now the fact that neither side is willing to meet the other half way, on anything.

And the ones that suffer the results of the no compromise philosophy are the people who died in Columbine, Sandy Hook, Orlando and Las Vegas, not to mention the ones killed in Chicago during the month of September and 278 wounded by guns (Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in the US by the way.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka



You have such a small mind for someone who talks so much.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka



You have such a small mind for someone who talks so much.

Actually, to the contrary, it is you who have the small mind, willing to sacrifice innocent lives to keep guns and gun laws from changing.

I said before, you clearly need to see the faces of those innocent dead, and perhaps you might (although I doubt it) change your opinion.

But then, as you have already proven ample times, either you dont actually give a flying fuck or have no cognitive ability to do so.

Either way, it is people like you who make such statements that harms the gun rights movement more than any twenty mass killers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka



You have such a small mind for someone who talks so much.

Actually, to the contrary, it is you who have the small mind, willing to sacrifice innocent lives to keep guns and gun laws from changing.

I said before, you clearly need to see the faces of those innocent dead, and perhaps you might (although I doubt it) change your opinion.

But then, as you have already proven ample times, either you dont actually give a flying fuck or have no cognitive ability to do so.

Either way, it is people like you who make such statements that harms the gun rights movement more than any twenty mass killers.

If a nutcase wants to kill people, no gun law is going to stop them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka



You have such a small mind for someone who talks so much.

Actually, to the contrary, it is you who have the small mind, willing to sacrifice innocent lives to keep guns and gun laws from changing.

I said before, you clearly need to see the faces of those innocent dead, and perhaps you might (although I doubt it) change your opinion.

But then, as you have already proven ample times, either you dont actually give a flying fuck or have no cognitive ability to do so.

Either way, it is people like you who make such statements that harms the gun rights movement more than any twenty mass killers.

If a nutcase wants to kill people, no gun law is going to stop them.

Might make it a bit more difficult for them, though.
Still, if the whole "criminals ignore the law" strawman is a valid argument against this, let's repeal all of those laws about child abuse, drug dealing, rape, extortion and murder, which the law has obviously failed to eradicate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka



You have such a small mind for someone who talks so much.

Actually, to the contrary, it is you who have the small mind, willing to sacrifice innocent lives to keep guns and gun laws from changing.

I said before, you clearly need to see the faces of those innocent dead, and perhaps you might (although I doubt it) change your opinion.

But then, as you have already proven ample times, either you dont actually give a flying fuck or have no cognitive ability to do so.

Either way, it is people like you who make such statements that harms the gun rights movement more than any twenty mass killers.

If a nutcase wants to kill people, no gun law is going to stop them.

Might make it a bit more difficult for them, though.
Still, if the whole "criminals ignore the law" strawman is a valid argument against this, let's repeal all of those laws about child abuse, drug dealing, rape, extortion and murder, which the law has obviously failed to eradicate.

Not comparable. Gun laws are about infringing on a right which would, overtime, expand to affect more and more people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka



You have such a small mind for someone who talks so much.

Actually, to the contrary, it is you who have the small mind, willing to sacrifice innocent lives to keep guns and gun laws from changing.

I said before, you clearly need to see the faces of those innocent dead, and perhaps you might (although I doubt it) change your opinion.

But then, as you have already proven ample times, either you dont actually give a flying fuck or have no cognitive ability to do so.

Either way, it is people like you who make such statements that harms the gun rights movement more than any twenty mass killers.

If a nutcase wants to kill people, no gun law is going to stop them.

Might make it a bit more difficult for them, though.
Still, if the whole "criminals ignore the law" strawman is a valid argument against this, let's repeal all of those laws about child abuse, drug dealing, rape, extortion and murder, which the law has obviously failed to eradicate.

Not comparable. Gun laws are about infringing on a right which would, overtime, expand to affect more and more people.

So why do the opponents to gun control keep stressing that the existing laws obviously don't work whenever more regulation is suggested, then?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka



You have such a small mind for someone who talks so much.

Actually, to the contrary, it is you who have the small mind, willing to sacrifice innocent lives to keep guns and gun laws from changing.

I said before, you clearly need to see the faces of those innocent dead, and perhaps you might (although I doubt it) change your opinion.

But then, as you have already proven ample times, either you dont actually give a flying fuck or have no cognitive ability to do so.

Either way, it is people like you who make such statements that harms the gun rights movement more than any twenty mass killers.

If a nutcase wants to kill people, no gun law is going to stop them.

Might make it a bit more difficult for them, though.
Still, if the whole "criminals ignore the law" strawman is a valid argument against this, let's repeal all of those laws about child abuse, drug dealing, rape, extortion and murder, which the law has obviously failed to eradicate.

Not comparable. Gun laws are about infringing on a right which would, overtime, expand to affect more and more people.

So why do the opponents to gun control keep stressing that the existing laws obviously don't work whenever more regulation is suggested, then?

Because nothing is going to stop someone from killing someone if their mind is set on killing someone, as i said earlier.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka



You have such a small mind for someone who talks so much.

Actually, to the contrary, it is you who have the small mind, willing to sacrifice innocent lives to keep guns and gun laws from changing.

I said before, you clearly need to see the faces of those innocent dead, and perhaps you might (although I doubt it) change your opinion.

But then, as you have already proven ample times, either you dont actually give a flying fuck or have no cognitive ability to do so.

Either way, it is people like you who make such statements that harms the gun rights movement more than any twenty mass killers.

If a nutcase wants to kill people, no gun law is going to stop them.

Might make it a bit more difficult for them, though.
Still, if the whole "criminals ignore the law" strawman is a valid argument against this, let's repeal all of those laws about child abuse, drug dealing, rape, extortion and murder, which the law has obviously failed to eradicate.

Not comparable. Gun laws are about infringing on a right which would, overtime, expand to affect more and more people.

So why do the opponents to gun control keep stressing that the existing laws obviously don't work whenever more regulation is suggested, then?

Because nothing is going to stop someone from killing someone if their mind is set on killing someone, as i said earlier.

What's going to stop somebody from digging up your mother and using her skeletons to make sex toys if their mind is set upon it? That proves that the laws against necrophillia and graverobbing are pointless and futile as they won't deter a committed pervert.
What's going to stop somebody abducting your daughter, fucking her until she's bleeding from every hole she's got, then grinding her up in a meat processing plant to hide the evidence? The laws against child abuse and sexual exploitation have been repeatedly proven to be useless and futile, after all.
The main defining point of criminals, you'll find, is that they ignore laws. That's what defines them as criminals in the first place. If you're using a flaw in human nature to argue that more legislation to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill and professional criminals should be avoided because the laws wouldn't work, you should probably be calling for all of the other laws that don't work to be repealed as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka



You have such a small mind for someone who talks so much.

Actually, to the contrary, it is you who have the small mind, willing to sacrifice innocent lives to keep guns and gun laws from changing.

I said before, you clearly need to see the faces of those innocent dead, and perhaps you might (although I doubt it) change your opinion.

But then, as you have already proven ample times, either you dont actually give a flying fuck or have no cognitive ability to do so.

Either way, it is people like you who make such statements that harms the gun rights movement more than any twenty mass killers.

If a nutcase wants to kill people, no gun law is going to stop them.

Might make it a bit more difficult for them, though.
Still, if the whole "criminals ignore the law" strawman is a valid argument against this, let's repeal all of those laws about child abuse, drug dealing, rape, extortion and murder, which the law has obviously failed to eradicate.

Not comparable. Gun laws are about infringing on a right which would, overtime, expand to affect more and more people.

So why do the opponents to gun control keep stressing that the existing laws obviously don't work whenever more regulation is suggested, then?

Because nothing is going to stop someone from killing someone if their mind is set on killing someone, as i said earlier.

What's going to stop somebody from digging up your mother and using her skeletons to make sex toys if their mind is set upon it? That proves that the laws against necrophillia and graverobbing are pointless and futile as they won't deter a committed pervert.
What's going to stop somebody abducting your daughter, fucking her until she's bleeding from every hole she's got, then grinding her up in a meat processing plant to hide the evidence? The laws against child abuse and sexual exploitation have been repeatedly proven to be useless and futile, after all.
The main defining point of criminals, you'll find, is that they ignore laws. That's what defines them as criminals in the first place. If you're using a flaw in human nature to argue that more legislation to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill and professional criminals should be avoided because the laws wouldn't work, you should probably be calling for all of the other laws that don't work to be repealed as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

The main reason we have any laws is to ensure there will be a consequence for an unacceptable action. If you choose to take the action, you will face a consequence. Laws should not take away rights from law-abiding citizens. Mentally ill people are not criminals. They are human beings who have the right to protect themselves. They also have the right to privacy. If you disagree, you are no different then Hitler.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

The main reason we have any laws is to ensure there will be a consequence for an unacceptable action. If you choose to take the action, you will face a consequence. Laws should not take away rights from law-abiding citizens. Mentally ill people are not criminals. They are human beings who have the right to protect themselves. They also have the right to privacy. If you disagree, you are no different then Hitler.

Except that the right to privacy does not outweigh or even hold equal priority of the right to the general safety of the public.

This was set when the first law making it mandatory for the registration of convicted sex offenders be public knowledge, even after they have finished their sentence.

Hence the fact that the sex offender registry is public domain and lists current addresses as well as previous addresses along with the crime they were convicted of.

So, if you maintain that a person who was adjudicated as a danger to society due to mental illness has the right to privacy and that knowledge be kept off the national crime information system database, then the same rights apply to a sex offender.

You cant have it both ways.

If that information had been available to the retailers that sold Cho the two guns he used at Virginia tech, those people would still be alive today, since he would not have had the guns to go on his rampage.

However, IF you wish to make your argument to the survivors or the surviving relatives of those he killed, by all means do so, and please notify the local stations, because it would be nice to see their reactions broadcast on national tv.

And please, dont make yourself look like more of an ass by using that anti depressant argument, because it is bullshit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


Most gun deaths are suicides.

quote:

The Gun Control Act (GCA), codified at 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), makes it unlawful for certain categories of persons to ship, transport, receive, or possess firearms or ammunition, to include any person:

convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;

who is a fugitive from justice;

who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act, codified at 21 U.S.C. § 802);

quote:

who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;

who is an illegal alien;

who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
who has renounced his or her United States citizenship;

who is subject to a court order restraining the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of the intimate partner; or
who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

The GCA at 18 U.S.C. § 992(n) also makes it unlawful for any person under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year to ship, transport, or receive firearms or ammunition.

Further, the GCA at 18 U.S.C. § 922(d) makes it unlawful to sell or otherwise dispose of firearms or ammunition to any person who is prohibited from shipping, transporting, receiving, or possessing firearms or ammunition.
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

quote:

Clearly, more factors are at work as causes of suicide than depression alone. The severity of mood disorders, past suicide attempts and substance abuse are all thought to increase the risk. Recent evidence also suggests that the mixed-depressive form of bipolar disorder can be a particularly dangerous time that can often go undetected or masquerade as general depression and irritability.
Robin Williams: Depression Alone Rarely Causes Suicide

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


Most gun deaths are suicides.

Whats your point?

Your anti depressant argument?

quote:

The Gun Control Act (GCA), codified at 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), makes it unlawful for certain categories of persons to ship, transport, receive, or possess firearms or ammunition, to include any person:

convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;

who is a fugitive from justice;

who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act, codified at 21 U.S.C. § 802);

quote:

who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;

who is an illegal alien;

who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
who has renounced his or her United States citizenship;

who is subject to a court order restraining the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of the intimate partner; or
who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

The GCA at 18 U.S.C. § 992(n) also makes it unlawful for any person under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year to ship, transport, or receive firearms or ammunition.

Further, the GCA at 18 U.S.C. § 922(d) makes it unlawful to sell or otherwise dispose of firearms or ammunition to any person who is prohibited from shipping, transporting, receiving, or possessing firearms or ammunition.
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Straight from the ATF web page, now, pray tell, where the fuck does it mention anti depressants, or any prescribed drug anywhere?

quote:

Clearly, more factors are at work as causes of suicide than depression alone. The severity of mood disorders, past suicide attempts and substance abuse are all thought to increase the risk. Recent evidence also suggests that the mixed-depressive form of bipolar disorder can be a particularly dangerous time that can often go undetected or masquerade as general depression and irritability.
Robin Williams: Depression Alone Rarely Causes Suicide

In fact, there is no law in the US or any state where suicide is illegal, although some states have laws that make attempted suicide illegal, but those are rarely prosecuted.

The federal law is specifically pointing at someone who is a danger to the general public by reason of mental impairment, and if you really get down to it, many of the commonly prescribed anti depressants are linked with violent behavior with prolonged use, which is one reason that the current trend is to either not medicate over a long period or switch up medications periodically so the effects are minimized.

So give it up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka





So we should have a database with all of the illegal aliens in it. Do we have that now?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka



You have such a small mind for someone who talks so much.

Actually, to the contrary, it is you who have the small mind, willing to sacrifice innocent lives to keep guns and gun laws from changing.

I said before, you clearly need to see the faces of those innocent dead, and perhaps you might (although I doubt it) change your opinion.

But then, as you have already proven ample times, either you dont actually give a flying fuck or have no cognitive ability to do so.

Either way, it is people like you who make such statements that harms the gun rights movement more than any twenty mass killers.

If a nutcase wants to kill people, no gun law is going to stop them.

Might make it a bit more difficult for them, though.
Still, if the whole "criminals ignore the law" strawman is a valid argument against this, let's repeal all of those laws about child abuse, drug dealing, rape, extortion and murder, which the law has obviously failed to eradicate.

Not comparable. Gun laws are about infringing on a right which would, overtime, expand to affect more and more people.

So why do the opponents to gun control keep stressing that the existing laws obviously don't work whenever more regulation is suggested, then?

Because nothing is going to stop someone from killing someone if their mind is set on killing someone, as i said earlier.

What's going to stop somebody from digging up your mother and using her skeletons to make sex toys if their mind is set upon it? That proves that the laws against necrophillia and graverobbing are pointless and futile as they won't deter a committed pervert.
What's going to stop somebody abducting your daughter, fucking her until she's bleeding from every hole she's got, then grinding her up in a meat processing plant to hide the evidence? The laws against child abuse and sexual exploitation have been repeatedly proven to be useless and futile, after all.
The main defining point of criminals, you'll find, is that they ignore laws. That's what defines them as criminals in the first place. If you're using a flaw in human nature to argue that more legislation to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill and professional criminals should be avoided because the laws wouldn't work, you should probably be calling for all of the other laws that don't work to be repealed as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka





So we should have a database with all of the illegal aliens in it. Do we have that now?

Actually, yes, every time one is deported they are entered into a database, so if caught again, the judge at the hearing can either deport or send them to prison, which considering the present prison over crowding means that they once more are deported.

want to ask another bizarrely stupid question? you have yet to meet your expected quota today.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka



You have such a small mind for someone who talks so much.

Actually, to the contrary, it is you who have the small mind, willing to sacrifice innocent lives to keep guns and gun laws from changing.

I said before, you clearly need to see the faces of those innocent dead, and perhaps you might (although I doubt it) change your opinion.

But then, as you have already proven ample times, either you dont actually give a flying fuck or have no cognitive ability to do so.

Either way, it is people like you who make such statements that harms the gun rights movement more than any twenty mass killers.

If a nutcase wants to kill people, no gun law is going to stop them.

Might make it a bit more difficult for them, though.
Still, if the whole "criminals ignore the law" strawman is a valid argument against this, let's repeal all of those laws about child abuse, drug dealing, rape, extortion and murder, which the law has obviously failed to eradicate.

Not comparable. Gun laws are about infringing on a right which would, overtime, expand to affect more and more people.

So why do the opponents to gun control keep stressing that the existing laws obviously don't work whenever more regulation is suggested, then?

Because nothing is going to stop someone from killing someone if their mind is set on killing someone, as i said earlier.

What's going to stop somebody from digging up your mother and using her skeletons to make sex toys if their mind is set upon it? That proves that the laws against necrophillia and graverobbing are pointless and futile as they won't deter a committed pervert.
What's going to stop somebody abducting your daughter, fucking her until she's bleeding from every hole she's got, then grinding her up in a meat processing plant to hide the evidence? The laws against child abuse and sexual exploitation have been repeatedly proven to be useless and futile, after all.
The main defining point of criminals, you'll find, is that they ignore laws. That's what defines them as criminals in the first place. If you're using a flaw in human nature to argue that more legislation to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill and professional criminals should be avoided because the laws wouldn't work, you should probably be calling for all of the other laws that don't work to be repealed as well.

Well then good. Glad you came around. Since it's already against the law to shoot someone, we don't need more gun laws as you've just argued.